Powerful portable flash?

desantnik

desantnik

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I've been trying some of the old "expose for the sky and light subject with flash" things over the weekend and am getting very mixed results.

If anyone has any tips, that would be great, but my guess is that on a bright sunny day like we've had this weekend that I'm just not kicking out enough light from my SB900 (set to 1/1 and zoomed to 200mm) unless I'm really, really close.

Is there any kind of portable (on camera) flash system that kicks out more than GN48?

The other thing I was reading is that flash is cumulative, so extra flash units could achieve the same result - which is fine in a studio situation, not quite so good at a MX track :thumbs:
 
Have a word with Jason Cole he uses a single battery setup for his glamour shots at very small apertures with no problem. Joe McNally simply uses adapters that allow for up to 6 (I think) speedlights on a single stand and achieves a similar result.

I'm always coming up against the same problem and usually just opt for getting as close to 'exposed' on the bg then PP the rest, would be nice to achieve it out of the gate though.
 
Theres a sigma with a guide no of 53 (I think) and the old metz 60's had a guide of... I think 60 (supprise supprise) I'm a little puzzled though the sb9oo has a fair bit of power, what are you trying to light?
 
Who is Jason Cole?

I am trying to light Motocross bikes :D

To be honest its asking a bit much really - a bright sunny sky and then hitting something maybe 3m away and expecting it to light up.

But on the other hand, when I've tried the same thing for grid girl portraits, even fairly point blank its taken full power and then some CS4 work to bring it up to get the effect I wanted.
 
Jason Cole uses a Broncolor setup. These kind of lights are powered by a portable gererator and kick out a heck of a lot more power than a speedlight. And cost a lot too, £1500-£1700.

You could try dialing the background exposure down a little and give your light less work?
 
I could do Ali - actually to be honest I've seen the effect and I'm trying to reproduce it without any technical details.

I wonder whether as you say to meter on the sky, drop it down a stop or so and use a fairly high ISO and adjust the flash power until its lit properly?

If anyone has a better suggestion thats non-purchase related, please do tell :D
 
desantnik said:
Who is Jason Cole?

some aussie bloke than does over processed glamour shots

I am trying to light Motocross bikes :D.

are the bikes moving or stationary. if they are stationaru then you can use a single speedlite and blend multiple exposures (I've done this with a car before) if its on the move e.g racing, then you don't really want to be using such large out put of light
Click to expand...


show a couple of examples
 
If you're wanting to do moving MX bikes then you won't want to carry that sort of gear round with you. You're talking about a lot of gear and a bettery pack to run in from, along with stands etc.

Maybe run two SB900s, on one camera, one off, both on full power?

Maybe up the ISO a little, as that will improve the range of the flash? I seem to remember you have a D3 which will handle the higher ISO better.
 
POAH said:
show a couple of examples
Click to expand...

Yes, moving but not "racing" - its something I wanted to use for a staged photo shoot (ie the guy isn't going to be randomnly blinded by Hiroshima going off on the last corner)

Am trying to get the "dark moody sky" thing from a "blue sky and clouds" day of a jumping MX bike (or BMX bike or skateboard etc etc)

I suppose I could totally cheat by using CaptureNX to mangle a RAW into that :D
 
barneyrubble said:
If you're wanting to do moving MX bikes then you won't want to carry that sort of gear round with you.
Click to expand...

Yes exactly - its knackering work at the best of times anyway!

Maybe run two SB900s, on one camera, one off, both on full power?
Click to expand...

Might work - I can try it with a borrowed SB800 and see how that goes. Probably two flashes will be the limit though as you correctly point out.

Maybe up the ISO a little, as that will improve the range of the flash? I seem to remember you have a D3 which will handle the higher ISO better.
Click to expand...

I'm using a D300 actually, but not really scared to go quite mental with the ISO - its not like its for the cover of Vogue, the end result is going to be gritty anyway.
 
barneyrubble said:
Where are you doing this? Canada Heights? There is a reason for the question :D:D:D
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Well, I *was* doing that at Canada Heights yesterday with the Red Bull X-Fighters.... a bit of a spur of the moment type thing though so no real damage done when it didn't really work out.

But it reminded me I needed to ask on here for some advice as its something we will hopefully use on a photo shoot elsewhere... once the person in question is well enough again to ride :help:
 
The Lencarta Safari has about 10x the power of a hotshoe flash and will do the job, but obviously it costs a lot more than hotshoe flashes and only you can decide whether that's the right solution for you.

If you use hotshoe flashes, you need to shoot with a camera that can synch at high shutter speeds (to cut down the effect of ambient lighting) and the flash needs to be as close as practicable to the subject, to reduce light loss.
 
Yes exactly - its knackering work at the best of times anyway!
Click to expand...
The Safari is small and light.

I'm using a D300 actually, but not really scared to go quite mental with the ISO - its not like its for the cover of Vogue, the end result is going to be gritty anyway.
Click to expand...
Using high ISO doesn't help in the least. It increases the effect of the ambient light as well as increasing the effect of the flash
 
Ah - I meant to go down there yesterday.

Charged all of my batteries and got everything ready saturday morning. Went into work saturday afternoon then out in the west end in the evening and completely forgot the next morning I was going to go to the red bulls.

The reason I asked was that I have a couple of AB800 flash units, with portable power and a couple of softboxes that I've been keen to test out with the battery pack I've sorted. The idea is it's a set of portable studio lights, much much more powerful than flash. I was going to suggest that if it was at Canada heights i could bring it down and you could try it out. But if it's not there then it probably won't work.
 
barneyrubble said:
So you adjust the exposure to suit.
Click to expand...

Yes, I was thinking with the exposure set on the sky (with whatever combo of settings you need) having a higher ISO would get more out of the flash (which is the bit you control).

That Safari flash might well be the answer though - not too expensive really.

The other thing someone I was talking to suggested might be one of those freznel (sp?) adapter things I've seen for use with long primes for bird/wildlife use? Better Beamer flash extender?
 
barneyrubble said:
Ah - I meant to go down there yesterday.

Charged all of my batteries and got everything ready saturday morning. Went into work saturday afternoon then out in the west end in the evening and completely forgot the next morning I was going to go to the red bulls.

The reason I asked was that I have a couple of AB800 flash units, with portable power and a couple of softboxes that I've been keen to test out with the battery pack I've sorted. The idea is it's a set of portable studio lights, much much more powerful than flash. I was going to suggest that if it was at Canada heights i could bring it down and you could try it out. But if it's not there then it probably won't work.
Click to expand...

Hehehe you missed quite a good gig really - MCF know how to put on a show!

There's another round in Essex soon...

Your lighting solution sounds interesting - wouldn't mind taking a look at that sometime as I want to try some skateboarding stuff too sometime and thats really going to be about lighting to make it look good.
 
Yes Terry, a little fill will work from the "poweful" standard 580 or SB900, but what I am after is a little more oomph than just a bit of fill - its more illumination than fill.

An example here:

http://blzeebub.com/index.php?option=com_g2bridge&view=gallery&Itemid=3&g2_itemId=4018

and no I am not asking for C&C, I know that one is still not quite right. Really want to get the sky much darker and also want to increase the range as that one was about point blank!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Edwards View Post
The Safari is small and light.

Originally Posted by barneyrubble
Using high ISO doesn't help in the least. It increases the effect of the ambient light as well as increasing the effect of the flash
So you adjust the exposure to suit.
Click to expand...
No, the whole point is that the OP wants to increase the contribution made by the flash, which means either having a much more powerful flash, placing it closer to the subject, increasing the shutter speed or all of the above.
Doubling the ISO doubles the effective power of the flash but has exactly the same effect on the ambient light, which would leave him with exactly the same ratio as before.
 
I see what you mean. For that type of Photo obviously the only option is flash, as you'll be moving around on the grid a lot.

What settings do you have there?
 
Garry Edwards said:
No, the whole point is that the OP wants to increase the contribution made by the flash, which means either having a much more powerful flash, placing it closer to the subject, increasing the shutter speed or all of the above.
Doubling the ISO doubles the effective power of the flash but has exactly the same effect on the ambient light, which would leave him with exactly the same ratio as before.
Click to expand...

OK, will have to have a play around. The two flashguns idea would work though?
 
barneyrubble said:
OK, will have to have a play around. The two flashguns idea would work though?
Click to expand...
Yes, in the sense that 2 would produce twice as much power as one, but only about 20% of the power of the Safari
 
But the safari would be no good in the example above, as Can't imaging the A1GP grid allowing someone on with a trolley full of gear, which is what you'd need. This would need to be portable by one man, and ready to go in an instant would it not?

If you want to do MX like at the Red Bulls, you would be limited to hotshoe flash really.
 
Garry Edwards said:
No, the whole point is that the OP wants to increase the contribution made by the flash, which means either having a much more powerful flash, placing it closer to the subject, increasing the shutter speed or all of the above.
Doubling the ISO doubles the effective power of the flash but has exactly the same effect on the ambient light, which would leave him with exactly the same ratio as before.
Click to expand...

Thanks Garry for pointing out my faulty reasoning with the ISO :D

So, thinking along the lines of what you've suggested, I need to keep my sync speed up as high as possible - I see what you mean, the flash firing will always be very fast, but increasing the speed will decrease the sky. The max I can do is 1/250th without it going into FP (?) mode for faster shutter speeds, which of course decreases the power of the flash.

What is the answer to a faster sync speed? I am guessing its a different body!?

I am already as close as I can get and already got my SB900 cranked all the way up, so the answer is more light which is either trying another Speedlight (probably on a flash bracket) or a more powerful unit like that Safari. By the time I've got the flash bracket and another SB900 its probably not far off the Safari and the latter is awesomely powerful! Have you ever used one Garry?

(edit - just noticed you doing the promo video's on the link to the Safari, so I guess you have! the Safari vid actually says exactly what I want to do "over power the sun"!!!!)

This has been a good discussion folks- don't often get that on the interweb!
 
barneyrubble said:
But the safari would be no good in the example above, as Can't imaging the A1GP grid allowing someone on with a trolley full of gear, which is what you'd need. This would need to be portable by one man, and ready to go in an instant would it not?

If you want to do MX like at the Red Bulls, you would be limited to hotshoe flash really.
Click to expand...

Actually, with the ring flash and the power pack, no problem really. Its got a shoulder strap, so its only like carrying a (bigger) Quantum pack around.

Ok, not something I'm going to drag around all day, but certainly something I'd drag out for those shots, of which I wouldn't shoot many "arty" ones anyway. As it is, we have a "trick bag" of flash triggers, stands etc for flash lit MX racing shots which only comes out sometimes (like yesterday!) as it takes time to setup and you need the right location etc.
 
desantnik said:
Thanks Garry for pointing out my faulty reasoning with the ISO :D

So, thinking along the lines of what you've suggested, I need to keep my sync speed up as high as possible - I see what you mean, the flash firing will always be very fast, but increasing the speed will decrease the sky. The max I can do is 1/250th without it going into FP (?) mode for faster shutter speeds, which of course decreases the power of the flash.

What is the answer to a faster sync speed? I am guessing its a different body!?

I am already as close as I can get and already got my SB900 cranked all the way up, so the answer is more light which is either trying another Speedlight (probably on a flash bracket) or a more powerful unit like that Safari. By the time I've got the flash bracket and another SB900 its probably not far off the Safari and the latter is awesomely powerful! Have you ever used one Gary?

This has been a good discussion folks- don't often get that on the interweb!
Click to expand...

A different body will not really help. The D3 has the same Xsync
as the D300, so does the D3x. AFAIK the only one with 1/500s is a D70.
 
desantnik said:
Actually, with the ring flash and the power pack, no problem really. Its got a shoulder strap, so its only like carrying a (bigger) Quantum pack around.

Ok, not something I'm going to drag around all day, but certainly something I'd drag out for those shots, of which I wouldn't shoot many "arty" ones anyway. As it is, we have a "trick bag" of flash triggers, stands etc for flash lit MX racing shots which only comes out sometimes (like yesterday!) as it takes time to setup and you need the right location etc.
Click to expand...

They're your shoulders :lol::lol::lol:
 
I'm already carrying more weight of kit than a flippin' DShB trooper anyway :D
 
Well, two would be the limit really for SB900's. I guess I could do some testing and just check to see whether or not its going to work. The recycle times can be fixed with a Quantum, one of my oppos already has the 2xturbo, so I'd just need a lead.

No opinions on the Better Beamer?
 
desantnik said:
Yes Terry, a little fill will work from the "poweful" standard 580 or SB900, but what I am after is a little more oomph than just a bit of fill - its more illumination than fill.

An example here:

http://blzeebub.com/index.php?option=com_g2bridge&view=gallery&Itemid=3&g2_itemId=4018

and no I am not asking for C&C, I know that one is still not quite right. Really want to get the sky much darker and also want to increase the range as that one was about point blank!
Click to expand...

This is a question about exposure...
It would be easy to solve with a bladed shutter and high power manual flashes, as sync would not be a problem, no would it reduce the power of the flash like highspeed mode does.
You could simply under expose for the available light and give the correct exposure via the flash.

This was often done in the old days for some wedding shots. I had a professional Braun flash that could cover a large group in the evening from about 40 feet and set to F8 and get a good exposure. This left the background pretty dark. I used the same technique for close ups of the Bride and groom when the background was less than perfect
 
desantnik said:
Thanks Garry for pointing out my faulty reasoning with the ISO :D

So, thinking along the lines of what you've suggested, I need to keep my sync speed up as high as possible - I see what you mean, the flash firing will always be very fast, but increasing the speed will decrease the sky. The max I can do is 1/250th without it going into FP (?) mode for faster shutter speeds, which of course decreases the power of the flash.

What is the answer to a faster sync speed? I am guessing its a different body!?

I am already as close as I can get and already got my SB900 cranked all the way up, so the answer is more light which is either trying another Speedlight (probably on a flash bracket) or a more powerful unit like that Safari. By the time I've got the flash bracket and another SB900 its probably not far off the Safari and the latter is awesomely powerful! Have you ever used one Garry?

(edit - just noticed you doing the promo video's on the link to the Safari, so I guess you have! the Safari vid actually says exactly what I want to do "over power the sun"!!!!)

This has been a good discussion folks- don't often get that on the interweb!
Click to expand...
Yes, I do have a Safari (or 3) in my studio and have used them quite a lot, mainly for outdoor fashion shots.
On an overcast day, overpowering the sun is no problem at all, even when using a softbox. On a bright sunny day it can still be done easily, but needs a standard reflector to make full use of the power. If push came to shove I could always use the high intensity reflector which puts out 2.5 X the light of the standard reflector but I haven't needed to do that yet.
In terms of output it's difficult to come up with meaningful figures because sellers of hotshoe flashes don't always come up with useful figures for their products.
The Lencarta Safari outputs 600 Joules (Ws). That's a total figure of course, so it's 600 with 1 head fitted or 300 from each head if there are 2 heads fitted. This compares to around 60 with most of the better hotshoe flashes (not sure what the actual figure is of the SB-900).
The guide number is probably a more meaningful figure, the Safari with a standard reflector has a guide number of 232 (ft) which means f/23.2 @10', ISO 100. The guide numbers of hotshoe flashes are typically inflated by around 30% and anyway are calculated with the zoom setting on maximum, which is a pretty misleading way of doing it IMO. My view is that if you want to know the true guide number of any hotshoe flash you have to measure it yourself.
 
I think you have pursued all the options except a Better Beamer or Kirk Flash Xtender. http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-kirk-flash-x-tender-1b/p1013209

I've got a Kirk jobbie which gives you an extra two stops or so but of course it narrows the coverage and vignettes at shorter than 200mm-ish on a crop body. I don't know what focal length you're using but if the subject is only in the centre of the frame it might be worth trying?

Other than that, two guns will give you an extra stop, and four guns two stops. Might be worth borrowing some and setting up a rig for a special shoot, but it won't be exactly wieldy :eek:
 
What about the new Elinchrom Ranger Quadra?

[YOUTUBE]<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Y7vgJaMqjOk&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Y7vgJaMqjOk&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]
 
Flash In The Pan said:
What about the new Elinchrom Ranger Quadra?
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, that would sort it all right. That was at Focus show wasn't it? Wicked toys :D

And you can hire them from The Flash Centre.
 
Cheers guys - I'll do some experimenting and come back with my results and see what you think.
 
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