police shoot 12 year old

I have every sympathy for the police in this situation too.
Airsoft guns can look extremely 'real' and need to actually be handled before it becomes obvious that they're made of lightweight plastic.
Other replica guns can look very real too, and the only giveaway is usually that they're too heavy and that they often have moulding marks on them, not visible until they are examined closely.
Personally I don't see any legitimate reason for the availability of any fake guns, because unlike real ones, they serve no legitimate purpose.

This statement is just the usual political nonsense "He says there have already been calls for tighter controls on fake guns, with one local lawmaker - Alicia Reece - saying she intends to introduce legislation that would require fake guns sold in Ohio to be brightly coloured." Some real guns are now produced in bright colours.
 
Another sad story link
 
The investigator looking into this was on TV this morning, saying that they would be looking at what was in the officers minds at the time, not in 20/20 hindsight. A lesson there for our IPCC, not to mention some so called gun 'experts'.

This is always going to happen, and has happened in the UK, twice that I can think of, although once was in NI, and it was a soldier that did the shooting. The other was a lighter, although the press didn't bother to mention that it was identical to an automatic pistol in size shape and colouring. Having seen the item in question, if someone had pointed it at me, I'd suddenly become very co-operative!

Replica guns perhaps should be made of solid silly colours, not painted over. A bright dayglo lime green or orange would lead to this being much less likely to happen.
 
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He was warned... if an armed cop told me to do something I would do it pretty sharpish, especially if I had a weapon or something that looked like one. Hopefully the cop will get the support they need.
 
Bernie174 said:
The investigator looking into this was on TV this morning, saying that they would be looking at what was in the officers minds at the time, not in 20/20 hindsight. A lesson there for our IPCC, not to mention some so called gun 'experts'.

This is always going to happen, and has happened in the UK, twice that I can think of, although once was in NI, and it was a soldier that did the shooting. The other was a lighter, although the press didn't bother to mention that it was identical to an automatic pistol in size shape and colouring. Having seen the item in question, if someone had pointed it at me, I'd suddenly become very co-operative!

Replica guns perhaps should be made of solid silly colours, not painted over. A bright dayglo lime green or orange would lead to this being much less likely to happen.
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Personally I don't see any justification whatever for the existence of replica guns, outside of films/theatre. And as I pointed out earlier, some real guns are now made in 'silly colours' anyway.
 
cambsno said:
He was warned... if an armed cop told me to do something I would do it pretty sharpish, especially if I had a weapon or something that looked like one.
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You're not 12.....

Horrible situation for the officer - not least because in the US there was a very real chance that this could have been a real gun. When the child drew it he had very little time and very few options. But really a stranger turning up and shouting at a child isn't always going to make them act rationally.

Of course in the UK, an officer attending would be almost certain it wasn't a real gun. And would be less likely to be armed.
 
I used to "play" airsoft! In bristol the old court house is now a airsoft site, right opposite armed response unit of bristol police! There are massive signs warnings not to take weapons out of building unless boxed or covered up! The kit is very life like! This child should not of had it in the streets! Unfortunate for the child to be shot but if you were told to drop the gun in that situation you would! Child at fault not the police!
 
JonathanRyan said:
You're not 12.....



Of course in the UK, an officer attending would be almost certain it wasn't a real gun. And would be less likely to be armed.
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so wait for them to fire it at you and if a bit of plastic hits you between the eyes it was a fake ? i can see a flaw in that plan ,,,,,,,what if it turns out to be real ?
anyway they showed the gun on the news this morning and it did look very real ,and as for the end of the barrel being painted orange ,they said that some criminals were painting the ends of their real guns just to confuse the issue
 
You're not 12.....

Horrible situation for the officer - not least because in the US there was a very real chance that this could have been a real gun. When the child drew it he had very little time and very few options. But really a stranger turning up and shouting at a child isn't always going to make them act rationally.

Of course in the UK, an officer attending would be almost certain it wasn't a real gun. And would be less likely to be armed.
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In a society where it isn't unusual for kids to be able to get their hands on guns, then yes, I'd agree there really wasn't many places this could go other than the way it went.

In the UK once, you would have been right, the chances of a firearms officer turning up would have been remote, but these days.......

Or perhaps they shouldn't be made at all.
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I struggle with agreeing with you there. As a child I have enough toy guns to equip a medium sized army. I enjoyed playing with them, but having a serviceman father, I as also taught how not to use them! Banning the things wouldn't have made any difference, I made my own close replica of an automatic pistol anyway.
 
Banning real guns doesn't appear to have been that effective
 
Steve Smith said:
Compare the amount of gun related crime here with that in the US. It's quite effective here.


Steve.
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I think you will find we have more gun crime now than before the ban
 
Garry Edwards said:
Airsoft guns can look extremely 'real' and need to actually be handled before it becomes obvious that they're made of lightweight plastic.
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All of my airsoft guns were metal & the only obvious way to tell they weren't real was to take them apart/ look down the barrel/ in the mag well. Not really safe or easy to do in most situations.

Having said that they were all custom build by me and cost a minimum of £200 each (most a lot more). ie. they were a build for adult use & only came out of their cases on registered game sites or in my own home for maintenance. There is no good reason for these things to be left in the care of children. Thre is also no reason for more stupid snap decisions to go from little to no regulation to banning a large number of people from participating in an active and fun hobby.

Airsoft guns sold in the UK now have to be predominantly painted a bright colour unless being bought by a registed airsofter. I can't say i've ever seen much point in that rule myself though, it's not hard to paint a real gun if you want to hide it in plain sight so in my opinion any gun like object needs to treated as if it's the real thing.
 
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According to reports the gun was not in his hands when the police arrived so they should have tried to collar him first. A number of people here have said they would immediately obey the police instructions in these circumstances but I am not so sure and there are many examples of innocent people who have been shot. If you are walking along without a care in world carrying a chair leg and suddenly armed police start shouting at you I think a common response would be to gesticulate (with the chair leg) saying "look it's only a chair leg" or some such phrase. Granted that in this case it was a child who had been misbehaving with the replica but I still think he may have thought he was doing nothing wrong.
 
At best, we're hearing the story 3rd hand and are unlikely to hear the truth whatever that might be. If it HAD been a real gun, a 12 year old is just as capable of firing it as an adult. Very sad for the family (and the child involved).
 
JonathanRyan said:
You're not 12.....

Horrible situation for the officer - not least because in the US there was a very real chance that this could have been a real gun. When the child drew it he had very little time and very few options. But really a stranger turning up and shouting at a child isn't always going to make them act rationally.

Of course in the UK, an officer attending would be almost certain it wasn't a real gun. And would be less likely to be armed.
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I would imagine most 12 year olds would be capable of identifying an instruction from a police officer, or being able to shout - it's not real or trying to establish a diaologue with said officer. Maybe the officer didn't give them that chance, the article is not that specific although it doesn't indicate the officer shouted to the child twice. Maybe he didn't hear. The officer had to make a judgement call on the basis of risk to themselves and the public at large. They shouted twice and didn't get a response, he did what he had to do.

In the UK, I wouldn't imagine an officer to be armed, but on report of an armed youth (most people having not seen a gun in the flesh would be hard placed to tell a replica from a real one particularly as the orange masking was removed) an armed officer may be called, and a very similar outcome might have happened here.
 
ST4 said:
I would imagine most 12 year olds would be capable of identifying an instruction from a police officer
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Most, maybe. But for whatever reason, not apparently in this case.

ST4 said:
In the UK, I wouldn't imagine an officer to be armed, but on report of an armed youth (most people having not seen a gun in the flesh would be hard placed to tell a replica from a real one particularly as the orange masking was removed) an armed officer may be called, and a very similar outcome might have happened here.
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Possibly. Though I believe (without having been bothered to check) that UK firearms officers have significantly more training than the US counterparts. They are basically, experts.

In the original report it said that even the 911 call said it was a fake or toy gun. Which makes you wonder why they called 911 in the first place.
 
Title is misleading. Should read

Police shoot perpetrator pointing gun who refused to cooperate with police request
 
JonathanRyan said:
Possibly. Though I believe (without having been bothered to check) that UK firearms officers have significantly more training than the US counterparts. They are basically, experts.

In the original report it said that even the 911 call said it was a fake or toy gun. Which makes you wonder why they called 911 in the first place.
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Even experts can make mistakes. Fewer, less, granted. However, the section in bold is somewhat concerning. Perhaps this wasn't relayed to the attending officer, how could the 911 call handler be sure the caller knew for sure it wasn't real? Are police really to take the word of a call handler and the "civvie" who said it was a toy? What if they were wrong, how are the police meant to act?

I really hope the officer doesn't face any criminal charges, he could only go on what he saw. Which was a kid, with a gun who wasn't complying with his requests.

Lets twist this on its head, and suppose the 12yo was armed, the police officer was told he wasn't, and 12yo shoots the police officer. The reality of dealing with crime day in, day out and your life being on the line each and every call (its the US) might lead you to a shoot to cover yourself style thinking?
 
would you take a chance on it being a fake? I wouldn't, however sad this story is the boy was given a direct order (and that being an order from a policeman with a gun and a licence to use it) to raise his hands.

its a shame that the policeman needs to live with this.
 
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This is just another fatality as a consequence of the stupid state of affairs in the US. Guns are cool. Teaching your kid to use an Uzi is clever. We have a right to kill 30, 000 a year.
 
ST4 said:
I really hope the officer doesn't face any criminal charges, he could only go on what he saw. Which was a kid, with a gun who wasn't complying with his requests.
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Like all law enforcement officers involved in a fatal shooting, the officer should face a detailed enquiry. When all the facts are known, people who do this for a living can decide if there are charges to answer or not.
 
ianp5a said:
This is just another fatality as a consequence of the stupid state of affairs in the US. Guns are cool. Teaching your kid to use an Uzi is clever. We have a right to kill 30, 000 a year.
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It's a fundemental part of their culture. I for one don't mind it. However, I've shot target rifles and was a member of a rifle club and cadets. I enjoyed fire arms (albiet in a highly controlled environment). Why was a 12yr old walking around with a fake gun, to what purpose, and why didn't he comply with the police officer. Police officer was given more choice. I'd say your post is ok upto the last part. Most Americans (and I have family out there) own guns for hunting, self defence. A minority use them for criminal ends. The vast chunk of Americans who own guns would use them lawfully.

JonathanRyan said:
Like all law enforcement officers involved in a fatal shooting, the officer should face a detailed enquiry. When all the facts are known, people who do this for a living can decide if there are charges to answer or not.
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Absolutely, my wording was poor. I hope, if the events are as they are depicted in the press, he doesn't have to face charges.
 
ST4 said:
It's a fundemental part of their culture. I for one don't mind it.
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So it's about time they started to change if they want to stop the unnecessary deaths like this one. It may take a while. In the meantime people in other countries suffer due to the availability of illegal guns being made.
 
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ianp5a said:
That death is a consequence of that mentality.
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Is it. Or is it a consquence of someone not following police instructions?

It would be unfair on the vast majority of Americans for them to change their gun laws as the vast majority own guns responsibly. It would be like banning cars because a 12yo stole a car, didn't stop for the police and crashed it. These things very rarely happen, but they will.
 
People are always going to make mistakes. But give them guns and it gets much worse.
You can't call this a rare occurrence. As I said 30,000 or more deaths is stupid in my eyes but obviously cool to some people.
 
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Absolutely tragic ... but a 12 year-old boy?
I find it very hard to view this as an inevitable outcome ... I hope I am right that it would never have happened so easily in the UK.
At 12 a boy might be too confused/frightened to think about following instructions being yelled at him by armed police!
Just tragic.
 
ianp5a said:
People are always going to make mistakes. But give them guns and it gets much worse.
You can't call this a rare occurrence. As I said 30,000 or more deaths is stupid in my eyes but obviously cool to some people.
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In a population of the size of the US I'm not so sure that's that awful. People without guns would just kill each other in a different way and guns level the playing field.

It's not about cool, it's about self defence and recreational enjoyment (hunting, target shooting etc) plus cultural heritage.
 
gramps said:
Absolutely tragic ... but a 12 year-old boy?
I find it very hard to view this as an inevitable outcome ... I hope I am right that it would never have happened so easily in the UK.
At 12 a boy might be too confused/frightened to think about following instructions being yelled at him by armed police!
Just tragic.
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Yes, that's all well and but truly ask what's a 12yo doing with a replica gun that's had all traces of it being a replica removed and brandishing it in public. I'm not also sure they'd be unable to follow the lie down, out your arms behind your back instructions.
 
ST4 said:
Yes, that's all well and but truly ask what's a 12yo doing with a replica gun that's had all traces of it being a replica removed and brandishing it in public. I'm not also sure they'd be unable to follow the lie down, out your arms behind your back instructions.
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Never mind what he's doing with it, he was 12 and now he is dead ... everything should have been done to prevent it getting to that stage.
 
gramps said:
Absolutely tragic ... but a 12 year-old boy?
I find it very hard to view this as an inevitable outcome ... I hope I am right that it would never have happened so easily in the UK.
At 12 a boy might be too confused/frightened to think about following instructions being yelled at him by armed police!
Just tragic.
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It is tragic, but in the US its not unknown for children as young as 12 to have access to real firearms, you only have to look at the list of school shootings in the last 5 years to see that its more than possible http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#2010s - theres one on that list where a third grader (age 8 or so) was shot when a class mate brought a loaded 9mm to school and it went off accidentally when he dropped his back pack

So when he drew what looked like a real fiream the police didnt have much choice but to act - i mean what would be being said now if they'd ignored the call and he'd gone on to commit a massacre of class mates ?

The people really at fault here are the parents who allowed a 12 year old to take an airsoft replica to school in the first place, and the society that created a situation where kids with guns is a real and indeed regular occurence
 
He's was the same age as two of my grandsons, no doubt having he had all of the same silliness and lack of maturity that they have ... everything should have been done to prevent this killing ... and the outrage that will follow!
 
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