Photography forum collapse

I think basically that a forum requires a certain amount of dedication to come back and keep posting. Whereas Facebook just caters for those of us who are lazier. I've always thought that TP was a particularly good example of the former. And a bit of a stand out nowadays.
 
For those who have not received the email, the administrator states that post Covid, there has been a decline in Premium members and sponsorship, and has been making up the shortfall in revenue himself, which he can no longer afford to do so. He is open to any proposal to keep the forum running, but unless someone comes up with a rescue package, the forum will close as of the end of this month.
 
kennethwfd said:
For those who have not received the email, the administrator states that post Covid, there has been a decline in Premium members and sponsorship, and has been making up the shortfall in revenue himself, which he can no longer afford to do so. He is open to any proposal to keep the forum running, but unless someone comes up with a rescue package, the forum will close as of the end of this month.
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That's a real shame, and yes forums are very expensive to run,
and we are most grateful, for our loyal advertisers/ sponsors.

Hopefully there will be a last minute rescue package, but sadly I fear not.
 
It has to be said that Marcel passed over to us a very healthy site both in terms of users and financially, which we have been trying to build on, but it is difficult especially in the current climate to obtain fiscal support from both commercial sponsors and subscribing users (if you use that model) - there has to be a quid pro quo but it's a delicate balance.
 
Pound Coin said:
The problem is, of course, that only a very few make loads of money out of it.
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That is true of life in general and is simply a fact of economics. If everyone made loads of money then the money wouldn't be worth very much ...
 
@Awfers Not really, but it is something that has been discussed. We only use our FB page for announcements and links back to the site. We only email lists of topics recently updated to members who have not recently been active, but I'm not sure of the parameters of that, and feedback has been that it is annoying. I know I used to receive those emails from Martin's site which occasionally caused me to go there for a look, but mostly they were just deleted as noise in my inbox.
I have no doubt we could promote the site more, and we get plenty of emails from marketers wanting to sell us SEO services which we refuse. Maybe when/if we have more time and perhaps inclination to develop the social media side, we might develop the FB and Twitter but at present we don't feel the need or desire. Bearing in mind that we are concerned primarily with photography, we don't feel we have the right to splash members images over social media, and we'd rather keep the chat in one place or it's too much to moderate.
 
Well said Lindsay - that's exactly how I would receive them.

If I want something, I'll go and look - if anyone 'pushes' themselves on me, they would put themselves at the bottom of my list - probably never to be seen again.

With regards Faceache and t***ter and the use thereof; I don't think we have enough expletives in English for me to explain how much I detest them and their objectives.
 
Very annoying when you look at something and then get directed to Facebook.
Never have signed up to it and see no reason to now.
Not at all interested what or who others are doing, eating, snapping or have purchased and certain that feeling is mutual.
 
tijuana taxi said:
Not at all interested what or who others are doing, eating, snapping or have purchased and certain that feeling is mutual.
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Their can be some interesting things on there, but you have to wade through tons of crap to find it..

I am a member of a couple of local groups , they are useful for local news, what roads are shut etc.

However, the crap, the one that annoys me ( but not exclusively) we get fast food restaurants opening very regularly,
the next 20 odd posts that follow, on my local news hub are people tagging other people.
The majority could just walk across the room and say we must go here, or at least wait until they get home from work,
As its blatantly obvious a lot of them are married or live together as partners or even as a family.

Or the one that makes me chuckle, my cat never came home for its meal last night,
They then go on to describe that it needs its medicine, and that its an indoor cat and never goes out.
Well plainly it does!
TBH a lot of these "local" posts beat any comedy show most of the time.
 
My only qualification to the above is that we do need to keep TP popular across a very wide demographic, the younger cohort of which don't necessarily feel as anti-social media as the older cohort. So I think we will/do need to develop the social media presence, but keep it complementary to rather than alternative to the main site.
 
Cobra said:
Their can be some interesting things on there, but you have to wade through tons of crap to find it..

I am a member of a couple of local groups , they are useful for local news, what roads are shut etc.
...

TBH a lot of these "local" posts beat any comedy show most of the time.
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Exactly what I use it for.
 
lindsay said:
My only qualification to the above is that we do need to keep TP popular across a very wide demographic, the younger cohort of which don't necessarily feel as anti-social media as the older cohort. So I think we will/do need to develop the social media presence, but keep it complementary to rather than alternative to the main site.
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I'm not disagreeing but there seems to be a wide and general concern about "attracting the younger generation", the BBC for example are always chanting that mantra. However I think a lot of people naturally come to these things later in life. I see it as analogous to night clubs vs. country pubs.
 
I have no issue with facebook, I use it fairly regularly and it is what you make of it. But it is no replacement for a forum imo.

There is a certain permanence to a forum that you just can't replicate on social media. Sure the vast majority of threads will die and fall into obscurity, but they are still there and searchable. Truly useful information can be stickied, and even if not there is normally a good community knowledge that can point towards it when needed.

On facebook groups the life of a post seems to be much shorter and information quickly lost as more recent activity takes prominence.

I have seen a few forums sadly die and a move to FB has never saved them, it has just been a dragging out of the inevitable.
 
Cobra said:
Their can be some interesting things on there, but you have to wade through tons of crap to find it..

I am a member of a couple of local groups , they are useful for local news, what roads are shut etc.

However, the crap, the one that annoys me ( but not exclusively) we get fast food restaurants opening very regularly,
the next 20 odd posts that follow, on my local news hub are people tagging other people.
The majority could just walk across the room and say we must go here, or at least wait until they get home from work,
As its blatantly obvious a lot of them are married or live together as partners or even as a family.

Or the one that makes me chuckle, my cat never came home for its meal last night,
They then go on to describe that it needs its medicine, and that its an indoor cat and never goes out.
Well plainly it does!
TBH a lot of these "local" posts beat any comedy show most of the time.
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I went to a newly opened American Diner place and at the adjacent table was a bloke eating Chicken wings.
He was feeding voraciously like a tramp eating chips and his missus was busy snapping him on her phone.
Can only imagine this disgusting spectacle was destined for The Facebook or The Instagram.

Does anyone really want to see a greedy bunter with his face, hands and upper body plastered with gunge?
Obviously Yes would seem to be the answer.
About as appealing as sharing a purchase of Anusol on Amazon with the wider world.
 
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And if anyone is curious,
This can be found in the about us pages.

Social Media
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@TalkPhotograph1

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tijuana taxi said:
Does anyone really want to see a greedy bunter with his face, hands and upper body plastered with gunge?
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I totally agree with you Rich, however I guess the TV has a lot to answer for, with these man v food ( or what ever they are called) programs.

Although thankfully I've not seen any in awhile, these stupid "challenges" that were all the rage a couple of years ago. ( did covid kill them off? I hope so) do seem to have roots in part, from a snip of something someone saw on TV.
 
Cobra said:
I totally agree with you Rich, however I guess the TV has a lot to answer for, with these man v food ( or what ever they are called) programs.

Although thankfully I've not seen any in awhile, these stupid "challenges" that were all the rage a couple of years ago. ( did covid kill them off? I hope so) do seem to have roots in part, from a snip of something someone saw on TV.
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The food was definitely the victor in this unpleasant encounter.
I think this was sadly just everyday feeding rather than any form of challenge.

Another strange phenomenon is just snapping something that you have no idea what or why you have.
We sat enjoying a beer outside a riverside cafe in Maastricht and next door was a Church with a large ornate door.
As tourists passed by they snapped it on their phones without even stopping in their tracks.
So later on when asked what's that, all they can say is I haven't got a clue, completely inane behaviour.
 
tijuana taxi said:
So later on when asked what's that, all they can say is I haven't got a clue, completely inane behaviour.
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I think there's a setting on my iPhone to link a picture to the GPS co-ordinates. I've never knowingly used it but I imagine that a lot of people will do just that. :naughty:
 
Yes, you can look at where your photos were taken, on a map.
 
It is a strange thing. I do use FB, and don't mind it to be honest. It is what you make it. But would I talk about photography on there. Not really. I don't find it at all suitable for that. It's very much for showcasing the photos you took. And there is often a fitful bit of chit, chat and then that's it. You can't really engage.
 
I dont believe for one minute that these people look up gps locations for their miilions of snaps.
Its just become a habit to point and snap at anything and everything. Some go to the next level and constantly pan round videoing all and sundry.
 
tijuana taxi said:
Some go to the next level and constantly pan round videoing all and sundry.
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And generally its as boring as hell.
Someone I'm antiquated with, posted a phone video of their dog running up and down a beach.
Who cares?
 
Awfers said:
I was antiquated with someone once.. it didn't turn out well... ;)
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:lol:


Awfers said:
I can remember ads on TV making fun of this back in the 1990s. No one cared, it was more boring than watching paint peel.
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Do they still ask people to send in video fails? ( I forget the name of the programme way back then)
 
lindsay said:
My only qualification to the above is that we do need to keep TP popular across a very wide demographic, the younger cohort of which don't necessarily feel as anti-social media as the older cohort. So I think we will/do need to develop the social media presence, but keep it complementary to rather than alternative to the main site.
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sirch said:
I'm not disagreeing but there seems to be a wide and general concern about "attracting the younger generation", the BBC for example are always chanting that mantra. However I think a lot of people naturally come to these things later in life. I see it as analogous to night clubs vs. country pubs.
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Just from the opinion of a 27yo filmmaker and photographer. I came here a few weeks ago looking at selling equipment etc. and stayed because there's a space for sharing and gaining knowledge on what is both my career and a hobby/passion. There's a bit of feedback I'd give from my perspective in regards to being (purely assumption here) one of the younger people here.

Photography and Videography has become so accessible now that so many people entering the job market have it as a possibility, it's less of a hobby to many, and for people who see it as a hobby in my generation, we'll stick to social media (YouTube, Instagram, TikTok). I see this format as the place to learn from people with years of experience and grow a deeper understanding of how image making works in lot of different formats.

To that end, I've seen some discussions (and experienced one first hand) where help offered has been received with a defensiveness that's kind of off-putting, at times it feels that it's a one way street and some views are so entrenched that it seems to lose the whole idea of photography and videography for me, which is that you can literally do whatever you want and ther's no specific right answer.
I think it's difficult to find that line between troubleshooting on how to improve your work, and being told you must do one specific thing.

Things I'd love to see and I think would attract more people would be:
  • Having tutorial sections developed more, where people can go to find targetted advice for specific uses (from beginner Shutter Speed, Aperture, ISO, to discussions on composition, lighting, and discussing other photographer's work.)
  • If perhaps some of the feedback threads were specifically run by a moderator, with rules on how to give constructive feedback. For me I'm not here to put up a photo and receive "nice job", because I'm here to learn where I can improve.

I think overall this is a great forum, it's clear that there's an abundance of value here for lots of people, but new users may be turned away by some of the above.
 
Awfers said:
That all moved to Youtube... Just look up Fail, you will see tons of videos...
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You mean there are no more TV programs of people making arses of themselves?
Oh hang on, I'm forgetting people naked in the jungle baking a cake and singing or dancing with a mask on..
 
dougturner said:
Just from the opinion of a 27yo filmmaker and photographer. I came here a few weeks ago looking at selling equipment etc. and stayed because there's a space for sharing and gaining knowledge on what is both my career and a hobby/passion. There's a bit of feedback I'd give from my perspective in regards to being (purely assumption here) one of the younger people here.

Photography and Videography has become so accessible now that so many people entering the job market have it as a possibility, it's less of a hobby to many, and for people who see it as a hobby in my generation, we'll stick to social media (YouTube, Instagram, TikTok). I see this format as the place to learn from people with years of experience and grow a deeper understanding of how image making works in lot of different formats.

To that end, I've seen some discussions (and experienced one first hand) where help offered has been received with a defensiveness that's kind of off-putting, at times it feels that it's a one way street and some views are so entrenched that it seems to lose the whole idea of photography and videography for me, which is that you can literally do whatever you want and ther's no specific right answer.
I think it's difficult to find that line between troubleshooting on how to improve your work, and being told you must do one specific thing.

Things I'd love to see and I think would attract more people would be:
  • Having tutorial sections developed more, where people can go to find targetted advice for specific uses (from beginner Shutter Speed, Aperture, ISO, to discussions on composition, lighting, and discussing other photographer's work.)
  • If perhaps some of the feedback threads were specifically run by a moderator, with rules on how to give constructive feedback. For me I'm not here to put up a photo and receive "nice job", because I'm here to learn where I can improve.

I think overall this is a great forum, it's clear that there's an abundance of value here for lots of people, but new users may be turned away by some of the above.
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That's my experience too. I know about just one thing - lighting - and when I try to answer questions I tend to try to explain the reasons for my answer, and for that answer to be technically correct. But many people just don't seem to want to know, and aren't prepared to learn. What they often really seem to want to know is how to find a magic button in Photoshop that will solve their problem, or which useless gadget they should buy, when the real answer is usually to just understand the process, think about the physics and experiment.

I think that the tutorials section is useful, but there's very little member feedback, which doesn't really encourage authors to spend a lot of time creating tutorials that very few people seem to find useful.

Getting the balance right on forums must be difficult. Many years ago I belonged to a massive USA-based one, I later became a moderator and later still, an admin, but (for me) it basically died when it was sold to a large marketing company that just wanted to grow it in terms of quantity, at the expense of quality (dumb down the content and get 10,000 new subscribers every month). The result was tutorials and other static content that suited their advertisers, and heavy-handed moderation that didn't allow any criticism of their advertisers. In the end they flattered me by banning me:)
 
dougturner said:
I think it's difficult to find that line between troubleshooting on how to improve your work, and being told you must do one specific thing.
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On the other side of the fence: many contributors here have been taking pictures or making films for decades, so they've tried and discarded the less helpful ideas.

Young people too often fail to ask themselves the question "how do these old blokes know that"? The answer to which is experience. On the other hand, after a certain point, we oldies have worked out what we're happy with and often just can't be bothered with the faff of learning the thirtieth or fortieth "great new technique" when the old ones serve well enough.

So, when asked for the umpteenth time, "How do I do X?" they'll tell you the answer they know and you can take it or leave it. After all, it's your picture and few people react well to the bald response: "throw it away and try again".
 
Garry Edwards said:
That's my experience too. I know about just one thing - lighting - and when I try to answer questions I tend to try to explain the reasons for my answer, and for that answer to be technically correct. But many people just don't seem to want to know, and aren't prepared to learn. What they often really seem to want to know is how to find a magic button in Photoshop that will solve their problem, or which useless gadget they should buy, when the real answer is usually to just understand the process, think about the physics and experiment.

I think that the tutorials section is useful, but there's very little member feedback, which doesn't really encourage authors to spend a lot of time creating tutorials that very few people seem to find useful.

Getting the balance right on forums must be difficult. Many years ago I belonged to a massive USA-based one, I later became a moderator and later still, an admin, but (for me) it basically died when it was sold to a large marketing company that just wanted to grow it in terms of quantity, at the expense of quality (dumb down the content and get 10,000 new subscribers every month). The result was tutorials and other static content that suited their advertisers, and heavy-handed moderation that didn't allow any criticism of their advertisers. In the end they flattered me by banning me:)
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I suppose the con of accessibility to photography is that people confuse it with ease. A lot of people want to be able to slap a filter on something and call it a day, and very few get to the stage where they get satisfaction from spending hours getting something done right and then mastering it for their own use. I mentor video editors and motion graphics artists and see the same thing there.
I'm not sure whether this is something TP would want to look into, but have you ever run live events @lindsay et. al.? Like a workshop hosted on a zoom call where someone like @Garry Edwards could hold a discussion?
 
Forum demographics are difficult things - there are photographers with many years of experience in their field, and there are new talented youngsters who have a different approach, and possibly an understanding of the emerging technologies that the older generation may not appreciate. Ideally each faction have to be respectful of the other and open to learning.

Maybe some challenges need to be set - with an 'old pro' and a 'young whippersnapper' and each explains how they acheived the shot and their processing.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
On the other side of the fence: many contributors here have been taking pictures or making films for decades, so they've tried and discarded the less helpful ideas.

Young people too often fail to ask themselves the question "how do these old blokes know that"? The answer to which is experience. On the other hand, after a certain point, we oldies have worked out what we're happy with and often just can't be bothered with the faff of learning the thirtieth or fortieth "great new technique" when the old ones serve well enough.

So, when asked for the umpteenth time, "How do I do X?" they'll tell you the answer they know and you can take it or leave it. After all, it's your picture and few people react well to the bald response: "throw it away and try again".
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I think you're totally right. To an extent we've grown up with so much new technology that the very basics of photography (exposing light onto a medium) is something we take so much for granted that we miss the core of the process. By the same value though, there are elements that younger people are fluent in that are equally relevant to photography today.
 
andrewc said:
Forum demographics are difficult things - there are photographers with many years of experience in their field, and there are new talented youngsters who have a different approach, and possibly an understanding of the emerging technologies that the older generation may not appreciate. Ideally each faction have to be respectful of the other and open to learning.

Maybe some challenges need to be set - with an 'old pro' and a 'young whippersnapper' and each explains how they acheived the shot and their processing.
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I love that idea!
 
Awfers said:
I don't know about TV (I no longer watch it, save for Endeavour and a few select shows).
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I hardly watch it either however when I do, there is usually an advert or "leader" for some ridiculous reality programme.

Awfers said:
Just look up "FailArmy" on Youtube...
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Not interested enough to do it TBH but I can imagine the content.
I find it sad that people are prepared to make an arse of themselves, just to get "likes"
And other people are sad enough to follow and watch, said people.
 
dougturner said:
I suppose the con of accessibility to photography is that people confuse it with ease. A lot of people want to be able to slap a filter on something and call it a day, and very few get to the stage where they get satisfaction from spending hours getting something done right and then mastering it for their own use. I mentor video editors and motion graphics artists and see the same thing there.
I'm not sure whether this is something TP would want to look into, but have you ever run live events @lindsay et. al.? Like a workshop hosted on a zoom call where someone like @Garry Edwards could hold a discussion?
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I did host a couple of sessions during the lockdowns, https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/interwebby-webinar-session-thingy.710396/
They did have some support, but not a lot.
 
Cobra said:
And other people are sad enough to follow and watch, said people.
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It's not, sad to say, a new phenomenon.

The truly ghastly "Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em" or the only slightly less repulsive "Keeping Up Appearances" just reinforced the claim that no one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the public.

:tumbleweed:
 
There were some meetups in the past, not just for the F&C'ers but anybody, organised by Chris (Cobra). I don't think we've done much apart from what Garry refers to using online meetings, it's something to think about. It is something I've been wondering about as a sort of virtual club night thing, open to anyone on TP.
Likewise the old & young challenge might be a thing; one to test out as an idea

I appreciate @dougturner s post in particular which helps in developing our business plan for the future. Picking up on Garry's observations about the downfall of a big US site, we have had approaches from big vertical integrators trying to buy TP, and we've rejected them. Chris, Chris and I are first an foremost TP members, who just happen also to be the Admins. We don't want to lose it and the ethos, but we do need to keep it fresh and interesting rather than become stale and stsagnant over time. Hence thinking about a social media strategy and being interested in the sort of feedback that this thread is now providing.
 
lindsay said:
There were some meetups in the past, not just for the F&C'ers but anybody, organised by Chris (Cobra). I don't think we've done much apart from what Garry refers to using online meetings, it's something to think about. It is something I've been wondering about as a sort of virtual club night thing, open to anyone on TP.
Likewise the old & young challenge might be a thing; one to test out as an idea

I appreciate @dougturner s post in particular which helps in developing our business plan for the future. Picking up on Garry's observations about the downfall of a big US site, we have had approaches from big vertical integrators trying to buy TP, and we've rejected them. Chris, Chris and I are first an foremost TP members, who just happen also to be the Admins. We don't want to lose it and the ethos, but we do need to keep it fresh and interesting rather than become stale and stsagnant over time. Hence thinking about a social media strategy and being interested in the sort of feedback that this thread is now providing.
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feel free to reach out if you want to chat further. Happy to help
 
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