Photographers criminalised as police 'abuse' anti-terror laws

Fred Dawson

Fred Dawson

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Fred Dawson LRPS
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Report in todays Independent

Fury as stop-and-search powers are used to block and confiscate legal pictures

Reuben Powell is an unlikely terrorist. A white, middle-aged, middle-class artist, he has been photographing and drawing life around the capital's Elephant & Castle for 25 years.

With a studio near the 1960s shopping centre at the heart of this area in south London, he is a familiar figure and is regularly seen snapping and sketching the people and buildings around his home – currently the site of Europe's largest regeneration project. But to the police officers who arrested him last week his photographing of the old HMSO print works close to the local police station posed an unacceptable security risk.

"The car skidded to a halt like something out of Starsky & Hutch and this officer jumped out very dramatically and said 'what are you doing?' I told him I was photographing the building and he said he was going to search me under the Anti-Terrorism Act," he recalled.

For Powell, this brush with the law resulted in five hours in a cell after police seized the lock-blade knife he uses to sharpen his pencils. His release only came after the intervention of the local MP, Simon Hughes, but not before he was handcuffed and his genetic material stored permanently on the DNA database.

full story at

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-as-police-abuse-antiterror-laws-1228149.html
 
Sounds very much out of order as usual, but the only thing I am a bit concerned about is "the lock knife he used to sharpen his pencils" Maybe he spent the time in the cells for possessing the knife and not for taking the photos?
Ricky
 
Yet ANOTHER display of the country's finest, going over the top in their duties:bang::bang: When will they learn, all they manage to do is get the issue reported to the press, who then create an even bigger media hype by splashing it all over the pages.

I sometimes think that us Toggers are a little to blame as so many of us know a little bit of the laws, and use this as ammunition to go anywhere and everywhere. BUT (before i get hurled abuse and flamed) this does not give the Police or CPSO's the rights to manhandle people left, right and centre. I think some form of hand in hand work needs to be done, with Police and Authorities, getting together with local Photgraphers and Artists and teaching each other the facts. We are not all Terrorists or Paedophiles, and if we were up to no good, it is more than likely we wouldn't be running around, setting up tripods, and using Lenses, that frankly you couldn't call undercover, could you? Education of both sides is the only way i see this issue going away, and people like us can get on with the thing that makes up happy;)
 
sounds like it was the blade was the problem, no mention of seized photographic material at all?
 
newyorkaddict said:
Yet ANOTHER display of the country's finest, going over the top in their duties:bang::bang: When will they learn, all they manage to do is get the issue reported to the press, who then create an even bigger media hype by splashing it all over the pages.

I sometimes think that us Toggers are a little to blame as so many of us know a little bit of the laws, and use this as ammunition to go anywhere and everywhere. BUT (before i get hurled abuse and flamed) this does not give the Police or CPSO's the rights to manhandle people left, right and centre. I think some form of hand in hand work needs to be done, with Police and Authorities, getting together with local Photgraphers and Artists and teaching each other the facts. We are not all Terrorists or Paedophiles, and if we were up to no good, it is more than likely we wouldn't be running around, setting up tripods, and using Lenses, that frankly you couldn't call undercover, could you? Education of both sides is the only way i see this issue going away, and people like us can get on with the thing that makes up happy;)
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So you're assuming that a report in the media based on the obviously unbiased "victim's" side of the story must be true then. :shrug:
 
Taken from Cambridge Police site:
Is it illegal to carry a knife in my pocket?

It is illegal to carry any sharp or bladed instrument in a public place (with the exception of a folding pocket knife, which has a blade that is less than 7.62cm or 3 inches). A lock knife is NOT a folding pocket knife and therefore it is illegal to carry these knives regardless of the length of the blade. Possession of a lock knife in a public place without reasonable excuse IS an offence.

Possession of a multi-tool incorporating a prohibited blade/pointed article is capable of being an offence under this section even if there are other tools on the instrument which may be of use to a person in a public place (screwdriver, can opener). It is for the person to prove on the balance of probabilities that he/she had good reason for possession.

The penalty for committing this offence is a minimum six month prison sentence, or maximum of two years and/or a fine.
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Sounds like he was lucky he didn't get charged.

Does the press sensationalising stories like this really help the photographer's cause? I don't think so. It just helps to alienate the two sides even more than they are already.
 
He would have got locked up for having a flick knife in his pocket in a public place, not taking pictures. Unfortunately, the press in this country seem to jump on anything the police do that could possibly be mis-construed as wrong or heavy handed and sesationalise it.
 
Not wishing to judge someone I do not know with any sort of conviction (excuse the pun), something in the back of my mind tells me the 'white, middle-aged, middle-class artist' wouldn't have been totally co-operative with the officers either! :shrug:
 
i am happy in a sense that this shows a few things.
a/ the police are not all headstrong power freaks.
b/ could it be by any chance that parents and the public have got the idea from the media that anyone with a camera must have a sinister purpose for taking pictures.
 
Maybe he needs to move with the times and invest in a pencil sharpener, they're all the rage up here y'know :shake:
 
fabs said:
Agreed, seems the more likely, I think the "innocent photographer being hassled by the police" angle is a convenient excuse IMHO.
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Never mind the knife, he had sharp pencils too.
AND he is suspected of being in possession of an offensive wife.

Every time we make excuses for these abuses of power we take a another step towards a totalitarian state. We already have a legal system which undermines the fundamental rights established in the Magna Carta.

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Secret_gag_orders_undermine_core_Western_values
 
BUT the knife is the illegal part of what he is doing, how can you ignore that point when it is most likely the reason he ended up in the cells???
 
spannerdude said:
Never mind the knife, he had sharp pencils too.
AND he is suspected of being in possession of an offensive wife.

Every time we make excuses for these abuses of power we take a another step towards a totalitarian state. We already have a legal system which undermines the fundamental rights established in the Magna Carta.

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Secret_gag_orders_undermine_core_Western_values
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So you'd like people to be allowed to wander around the streets carrying knives would you? Or does the fact that he's a middle aged, middle class photographer make it ok for him to carry a knife?
 
Christ, we're in a sorry state when an artist can't carry a small knife to sharpen his pencils.
The officer involved must have thought he'd hit the jackpot - a camera, tripod and concealed knife - wow !
It must have been a horrendous disappointment to the cop when the guy was released after only 5 hours. Still with all that DNA, fingerprinting, etc, etc they will have enough evidence next time to put the guy away for life if he shows his face again in public.

On the bright side, if he had gone on the rampage bludgeoning tourists to death or re-enacting the Ripper murders with that razor sharp blade and snapping the fruits of his labour on his D3 to admire later while watching Neighbours, then he'd probably be released with enough time to shoot the next London marathon.
 
fletch5 said:
BUT the knife is the illegal part of what he is doing, how can you ignore that point when it is most likely the reason he ended up in the cells???
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Yeah, knife crime is a great excuse isn't it. I've carried a knife every day since I was a boy scout and so far in 35 years I've managed to resist the temptation to stab anyone. But every saturday night in this town somebody gets glassed.

The knife is irrelevant because that wasn't the reason for the stop and search.
Whatever the guy had in his pocket, he was stopped and searched by the police for taking photographs in a public place. Is that acceptable?
 
Whether that's acceptable or not, if he hadn't had the knife on him he wouldn't have been arrested.

The media and government have created a climate of fear since the 9/11 terror attacks, which was then exacerbated in this country by the 7/7 bombings and the attempted underground bombing two weeks later. Many of the tactics used are heavy handed, and stopping and searching someone under anti terror legislation for taking photos in the street is probably pushing it a tad far. But I'm sure if the gentleman in question had been calm, co-operative and hadn't been carrying a concealed weapon ina public place(because, whether it's for sharpening pencils or not, that's what he is doing), he would have had no problems at all.
 
RichardC27 said:
So you'd like people to be allowed to wander around the streets carrying knives would you? Or does the fact that he's a middle aged, middle class photographer make it ok for him to carry a knife?
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LOL, you're not a sensationalist are you!

An hour ago you decided that his "lock" knife was a "flick" knife, and now everybody with a tool in their possession is a murderer. So let me answer your question in very simple terms.

Yes, I would like people to be able to wander the streets carrying knives.
I would also like people to know that if they choose to use the knife to harm another living being, they will will be locked away from society for the rest of their life.

Doesn't that make more sense than going back to the stone age?....Hold on, stones can be used as weapon too!
 
spannerdude said:
LOL, you're not a sensationalist are you!

An hour ago you decided that his "lock" knife was a "flick" knife, and now everybody with a tool in their possession is a murderer. So let me answer your question in very simple terms.

Yes, I would like people to be able to wander the streets carrying knives.
I would also like people to know that if they choose to use the knife to harm another living being, they will will be locked away from society for the rest of their life.

Doesn't that make more sense than going back to the stone age?....Hold on, stones can be used as weapon too!
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So you don't believe in crime prevention then?
 
spannerdude said:
LOL, you're not a sensationalist are you!...
now everybody with a tool in their possession is a murderer.
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Bit of juxtaposition in your statements there, within the same sentence too. I never once said, or even implied, that everyone who carries a knife is a murderer, did I? The fact of the matter is, carrying a concealed weapon in a public place is a criminal offence. That's the law of the land, and as a police officer, the officer in this story would have been duty bound to arrest him.
 
I have been stopped a few times by police taking pictures. they have always asked politley what i am taking pics off and ask if they could see a few examples.
They have my details on their system. I am known to the local police, not once have they treated me badly, they just want to make surethat i am doing what i say i am and i dont find it depriving of any of my rights.

I have even got pictures with the coppers in question. If you have nothing ot hide so why argue the toss about rights.
 
At last, a few people are starting to post some common sense comments regards 'the knife'. A small (3 inch) knife to sharpen a few pencils does not constitute any intent to stab anyone and everyone.

Next people will be saying that all photographers are terrorists and pedophiles. Whatever next.

I regularly carry a monopod that would take a knife carrying pencil sharpening blokes head off at 6 feet. I have a glass bottle in the boot of the car that would make a nice mess of someones face. I also have a can of spray-mount that would make a cracking flame thrower if I felt the need. However, I don't have any of that stuff with the intent of causing harm to anybody, any more that the guy who had a little knife to sharpen a few pencils did.

It seems there are a few people on TP who aren't that different to the rest of the more paranoid members of the public. Only difference is TP members have cameras so they've got to be upto no good. :cuckoo:
 
nomorem6 said:
At last, a few people are starting to post some common sense comments regards 'the knife'. A small (3 inch) knife to sharpen a few pencils does not constitute any intent to stab anyone and everyone.

Next people will be saying that all photographers are terrorists and pedophiles. Whatever next.

I regularly carry a monopod that would take a knife carrying pencil sharpening blokes head off at 6 feet. I have a glass bottle in the boot of the car that would make a nice mess of someones face. I also have a can of spray-mount that would make a cracking flame thrower if I felt the need. However, I don't have any of that stuff with the intent of causing harm to anybody, any more that the guy who had a little knife to sharpen a few pencils did.

It seems there are a few people on TP who aren't that different to the rest of the more paranoid members of the public. Only difference is TP members have cameras so they've got to be upto no good. :cuckoo:
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I think you are completely misunderstanding people's postings here. No-one is paranoid, just stating the fact that it is illegal to carry knives in public, but not illegal to carry monopods. This is because people do carry knives with the intention of doing harm, whereas people do not carry monopods for the same intention. I could, and people do, do a lot of damage with a car, but it is not illegal to drive. And nowhere has it been suggested that someone is a paedophile/terrorist because they are a photographer. Now THAT is paranoia!
 
fabs said:
I think you are completely misunderstanding people's postings here. No-one is paranoid, just stating the fact that it is illegal to carry knives in public, but not illegal to carry monopods. This is because people do carry knives with the intention of doing harm, whereas people do not carry monopods for the same intention. I could, and people do, do a lot of damage with a car, but it is not illegal to drive. And nowhere has it been suggested that someone is a paedophile/terrorist because they are a photographer. Now THAT is paranoia!
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A small 3 inch folding packet knife is not considered an offensive weapon under UK law unless intent has been demonstrated that it was to be used as a weapon. Until that time it's just a little tool for sharpening a few pencils. Don't make assumptions about laws pertaining to the carrying of knives. There is a world of difference between a lawful reason for carrying a folding packet knife and carrying a weapon.

As for accusations of photographers being terrorists etc. Just read of few other posts on TP regarding street photography / nativity plays.
 
nomorem6 said:
At last, a few people are starting to post some common sense comments regards 'the knife'. A small (3 inch) knife to sharpen a few pencils does not constitute any intent to stab anyone and everyone.

Next people will be saying that all photographers are terrorists and pedophiles. Whatever next.

I regularly carry a monopod that would take a knife carrying pencil sharpening blokes head off at 6 feet. I have a glass bottle in the boot of the car that would make a nice mess of someones face. I also have a can of spray-mount that would make a cracking flame thrower if I felt the need. However, I don't have any of that stuff with the intent of causing harm to anybody, any more that the guy who had a little knife to sharpen a few pencils did.

It seems there are a few people on TP who aren't that different to the rest of the more paranoid members of the public. Only difference is TP members have cameras so they've got to be upto no good. :cuckoo:
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i think your missing the point myself. if it was illegal to carry a glass bottle, then whether you agree with it or not, it is still illegal and you will get arrested if caught. noone here is saying the photographer was out to stab anyone, but it is illegal to carry a knife in public, so he should have got arrested, it is that simple. as for stop and searching, i cant see anything wrong with it. they arent accusing you of anything, just checking what you have.

it was also a lock knife, which if you read the quote above from the police site, is illegal
 
nomorem6 said:
A small 3 inch folding packet knife is not considered an offensive weapon under UK law unless intent has been demonstrated that it was to be used as a weapon. Until that time it's just a little tool for sharpening a few pencils. Don't make assumptions about laws pertaining to the carrying of knives. There is a world of difference between a lawful reason for carrying a folding packet knife and carrying a weapon.

As for accusations of photographers being terrorists etc. Just read of few other posts on TP regarding street photography / nativity plays.
Click to expand...

It was a lock knife, which is illegal.

As for the threads regarding street photography/nativity plays, they are usually to do with security guards/schools and not the police. Even the ones that are to do with the police are again only one side of the story.
 
I have a leatherman wave multitool that I've always carried around with me. Useful at work, and generally handy around the place.

But it's got locking blades so you don't fold the blade back on your fingers, which now makes it illegal :(
 
There was nothing wrong with the knife.

To the person who called it a "flick knife," quite frankly you are wrong.

It is perfectly legal to carry a folding knife with a blade under 3 inches, with good reason. The reason was given, he is an artist sharpening his pencils.

It is also perfectly legal to carry a folding knife with a blade under 3 inches without good reason, as long as it doesnt lock open - ala Swiss Army Knife.

I'm well read on knife law, there was nothing wrong with the knife, assuming the Independent's reporting of it being a simple locking folder is true.

Just want to clear that up.
 
Hang on a moment.... he wasn't stopped because he had a knife, he was stopped and searched under s.44 for taking photographs. Despite all the guidelines, official stance it's still happening when it shouldn't be. Mis-direction about the knife doesn't change that simple fact :nono:
 
i don't understand why anyone still comments on stuff like this, you don't know that the article is sensationalist or that it isn't, just take it at face value.
 
fabs said:
I think you are completely misunderstanding people's postings here. No-one is paranoid, just stating the fact that it is illegal to carry knives in public, but not illegal to carry monopods. This is because people do carry knives with the intention of doing harm, whereas people do not carry monopods for the same intention. I could, and people do, do a lot of damage with a car, but it is not illegal to drive. And nowhere has it been suggested that someone is a paedophile/terrorist because they are a photographer. Now THAT is paranoia!
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The knife is irrelevant. Yes, there is a whole other debate there which is very valid....
When does a monopod become a weapon? When does a car become a weapon? When does a bottle become a weapon? When does a pocket knife become a weapon? But that is not the question here.

If the police had recieved a report that he was carrying a "concealed weapon" then that would have been the justification for stop and search.
What they did was abuse the Anti Terrorism Act to stop somebody on the grounds that taking photographs is "suspicious". Only as a result of a search based on absolutely no evidence of wrong doing, did they find something that would give them an excuse to lock up any boy scout.

So we are back to the question, is it acceptable for the police to stop and search somebody for taking photographs in a public place?
 
RichardC27 said:
He would have got locked up for having a flick knife in his pocket in a public place
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If it was a flick knife, which it most probably isnt.

Flash In The Pan said:
Maybe he needs to move with the times and invest in a pencil sharpener, they're all the rage up here y'know :shake:
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Ask any artist what they think of sharpeners - they often need to shape their tips

fletch5 said:
BUT the knife is the illegal
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No it isnt

fabs said:
just stating the fact that it is illegal to carry knives in public,
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No it isnt

fabs said:
It was a lock knife, which is illegal.
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No it isnt (you need a reason to carry one - which is given)
 
but to be fair, the way the article describes the arrival of the police, i would assume someone seen him with the knife and reported him(only assumption). in which case a stop and search would be warranted. without all the information, it is only guesswork.
 
the independant didnt call it a locking folder, it was just called a lock knife, to which, the police quote a little further down states as being illegal, again, very difficult to decide if it is or isnt without actually seeing the knife, i dont think it even mentions how big the blade is.

i will bow down to your superior knowledge though, since i know nothing and wouldnt have a clue what the differences are
 
He wasn't arrested for taking photographs, only questioned, which is the police officer's right. They arrested him for possession of a lock knife, which I understand to be illegal without giving a good reason. You don't kniow what reason he actually gave the police officer as you only have the photographer's side of the story.
 
fletch5 said:
but to be fair, the way the article describes the arrival of the police, i would assume someone seen him with the knife and reported him(only assumption). in which case a stop and search would be warranted. without all the information, it is only guesswork.
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They why would they detain him under s.44? The knife was not the reason he was stopped or has s.44 really become the default reason for stopping anyone now?

The reason he was stopped probably has a lot more to do with a certain poster about paranoia, er, photographers.
 
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