Photographers criminalised as police 'abuse' anti-terror laws

[pxl8]

He wasn't arrested for taking photographs, only questioned, which is the police officer's right. They arrested him for possession of a lock knife, which I understand to be illegal without giving a good reason. You don't kniow what reason he actually gave the police officer as you only have the photographer's side of the story.

Yes they have the right but why do the officers think that taking photos gives them cause? I think that's the real issue here. Maybe they received a report of someone acting suspiciously, who knows?

 

[fletch5]

They why would they detain him under s.44? The knife was not the reason he was stopped or has s.44 really become the default reason for stopping anyone now?

The reason he was stopped probably has a lot more to do with a certain poster about paranoia, er, photographers.

but again, that would be assumption,as was mine. im sure the officer didnt exactly handle it well according to the article, but i doubt that is the whole story which we will never know.

 

[Curious]

It is illegal to carry any sharp or bladed instrument in a public place (with the exception of a folding pocket knife, which has a blade that is less than 7.62cm or 3 inches). A lock knife is NOT a folding pocket knife and therefore it is illegal to carry these knives regardless of the length of the blade. Possession of a lock knife in a public place without reasonable excuse IS an offence.

I've bolded the important bit, reasonable excuse - artist having something to sharpen his pencils?

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[pxl8]

but again, that would be assumption,as was mine. im sure the officer didnt exactly handle it well according to the article, but i doubt that is the whole story which we will never know.

Assumption about the poster yes, that he was stopped under s.44 no which means the knife had nothing to do with the stop and your assumption is wrong.

 

[fletch5]

ignore me, read the rest of it and you are right:rules:

 

[Marc]

Yes they have the right but why do the officers think that taking photos gives them cause? I think that's the real issue here. Maybe they received a report of someone acting suspiciously, who knows?

And I think that is the issue here. We don't know, yet a lot of assumptions are being made. Chances are that someone spotted him taking photos of buildings close to a police station and, rightly or wrongly, reported it to the police. The police are honour bound to investigate and the chances are a routine search discovered the knife. As none of witnessed the ensuing conversation, it isn't therefore right for any of us to assume that the photography was treated fairly or unfairly.

 

[Marc]

I've bolded the important bit, reasonable excuse - artist having something to sharpen his pencils?

Sounds reasonable to me.

If that is indeed what he actually said at the time. You also have to consider that he was taking photographs at the time. Can't remember ever having used a pencil to take photos.

 

[Curious]

the independant didnt call it a locking folder, it was just called a lock knife, to which, the police quote a little further down states as being illegal,

They basically amount to the same thing, barring the knife being a flick knife, butterfly knife or gravity knife. All of which are highly unlikely, as they are incredibly difficult to come by legally in the UK, being illegal and all.

 

[Wayned]

MIDDLE AGED? He's only 42!!
A load of huff and puff about nothing.
I get fed up with defending colleagues sometimes, as I would like to think they are all reasonable, level-headed intelligent souls.
Unfortunately we reflect the society from which we are recruited and for which we serve.
God knows I've made some right cock-ups.

So, no matter how much training and guidance we get things will inevitably go wrong.
He had several knives, all of which, should this go to court, will probably deemed to be for use in his trade, apart from the lock knife.
I love the idea that Simon Hughes marched into a Police Station and demanded the immediate release of this individual. The Police and Criminal Evidence Act doesn't have a sub-section relating to release of detainees on the whim of a free-loading public serveant.(or it didn't the last time I looked)
Five hours is not a long time to be detained these days.
The booking in process generally means joining a queue, the booking in takes upwards of thirty minutes. If he wanted a solicitor they can take hours to arrive, an interview, then rejoin the queue to request the release. Not long at all really.

My problem is that practical policing seems to have gone out of the window these days.
A quiet word about the knife while admiring his photographic works (at the same time as giving it a bit of a 'once over' if that is what the bosses want) would have done the trick.
If he's kicked off when approached by the bobbies then he's only got himself to blame.

Saying all that I don't work in the big city, just a drug-infested, paedofile ridden steal what you can backwater.
I don't know what pressures they are under. They hardly get a good press after the tube shooting etc.
The bottom line is they are trying to protect the public from the invisible.
How do you prevent bombings? How do you identify a terrorist? How do you explain to loved ones the next time there is an attack and their family are dead, that a little bit of over-zealous policing may have prevented it.
As for journalistic freedoms, they'll do what they want no matter what happens. Who do you think the first will be to criticise when it all goes wrong?

Unions? Don't make me laugh. I can remember watching the news when the London bombings were just happening and the train drivers rep. was blaming the Tube bomb on faulty wiring whilst making scathing attacks on on everyone. What do they know about anything other than wasting members union contributions on worthless trips to meet like-minded oafs somewhere warm.

Magna Carta? I suppose you want to go back to burning witches, marrying 12 yr. old girls, slavery and capital punishment. All these things happened in spite of that particular document.

Finally the Independant. What a lazy piece of journalism. Hunt down the witnesses who saw this travesty. Interview them. Photograph where this man was arrested (if they dare).

Surely if there was an issue with the Police in that area they would be the first to report it.

I've seen the actual wording of the law on photograghy in public places on this forum in the last few weeks. Print it off, carry it round with you. Politely point it out and if you get a negative or unreasonable response complain.
Not every cop knows every law back to front. Even top drawer barristers have to look in their books now and then.
Don't ask me about the Badger Baiting Act, I'll probably say it's something to do with photographing badgers and sieze your camera.

 

[pxl8]

If that is indeed what he actually said at the time. You also have to consider that he was taking photographs at the time. Can't remember ever having used a pencil to take photos.

You're splitting hairs now. Did he have pencils and a sketchbook with him? Maybe, probably, if he's an artist... but it's not been reported :shrug:

 

[RichardC27]

5 hours is damn quick. I do the performance information for custody suites at work, and that's nothing compared to how long most detainees are in there for.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

I think that perhaps we are missing the bigger picture here if you excuse the pun. The bottom line is that despite the security services and polices best efforts. they like us are powerless to stop terrorism.

Powerless to stop terrorism?

Yes, ask any one in the security services who know about these things, and they will tell you off the record that they have to be lucky all the time where as a terrorist only has to be lucky once.

This whole prevention of terrorism act is about giving the illusion that the security services are competent, where the truth of the matter is they don’t know when the next terrorist act will take place.

Every time the anti terrorism legislation is used, (ridiculously in most cases) the event inevitably makes the papers and raises the profile on the war against terrorism, it looks like they are on top of things, being vigilant, the majority of the public feel and have the illusion that the security services are in control, when in fact they have not got a clue.

No Clue?

Yes, no clue whatsoever, with the advent of the internet, and I am not giving away any official secrets here, it is possible to down load detailed plans on how to build a reasonable size bomb, a quick reccy on Google Earth will give you all the logistics and Microsoft maps have even more up to date detailed information.

You can even get a train time table to plan your journey.

So know we realise that almost anyone can start a bombing campaign, the reason that we are not knee deep in rubble is that surprisingly enough i99.9999% of the population are law abiding citizens.

Truth of the matter you are more likely to die in a car crash than be blown up by a terrorist.

So the police play this elaborate game aided by an inept government and opposition who pass legislation designed not to prevent terrorism, but to give the illusion that:-

A, There are terrorists everywhere

B, Waging illegal wars is justified because ( see A)

C, That the security services are on top of it ….

 

[seriousrikk]

Is it too late to point out the fact a story told by the media will have whatever spin the media decides on it - and it is unlikely to be worth debating base only on that story...

 

[jerry12953]

Or the whole thing could have been blown out of proportion by the media as usual. But don't let that stop a good rant, eh!

Surely you're defending the indefensible here, aren't you?

 

[Marc]

You're splitting hairs now. Did he have pencils and a sketchbook with him? Maybe, probably, if he's an artist... but it's not been reported :shrug:

Maybe, probably. That's my whole point, we don't know!

Surely you're defending the indefensible here, aren't you?

How so?

 

[Rob.Marsh]

I see a number of things coming into play here.

Firstly the sensationalism of the paper, making it very difficult to determin what really happened accurately.
Yes, its its seen as out of order being stopped for taking photo's. Its happens, we ( a as a group representing photograohers) need to accept this happens, rightly or wrongly, and just do our best to be civil, diffuse situations you find yourself and try to help the Police understand our pastime.

Onto the knive.
If it was under 3 inches and a lock or pen knife, its not illeagal to have one on your person. That is, not brandishing it and using it in a proper manner with good reason. I am more than familiar with this as a scout leader who teaches knife safety.

But, we don't know if a member of public made the call to the cops, who was troubled about seeing the knife, or confused about the law. Perhaps thats why the cops responded in such away, especially considering all the press coverage about knife crime cuasing increased public sensitivity.

The bottem line is this, we don't kow the ins and out, a real lack of detail about how the "victim" responded to the cops. They were doing their job, we need to get off thier back, they are in a loose loose situation.

I say, lets help the police out by stop compaining about themm and setting the press on them. They have a hard enough job as it is. Should we find ourselves on the end of an inquisition, lets be civil and open, and I am certain that 99% of the time an outcome will be reached that will be good for both parties.

Its time to stop cop bashing and move on!!!

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Two different versions of this story going about, firstly the Article in the Independent...

"For Powell, this brush with the law resulted in five hours in a cell after police seized the lock-blade knife"

And the original article on the London SE1 website:

"He was also able to produce his laptop with containing evidence of his work, charcoal and a box of pencils for drawing and a Stanley knife for sharpening the pencils."

Dunno about London, but up here carrying a Stanley knife in public is technically an offence,however in his case it obviously wasn't being brandished as a weapon- I get the feeling it was more his attitude to the police that got him arrested rather than anything else...

 

[Curious]

Dunno about London, but up here carrying a Stanley knife in public is technically an offence,however in his case it obviously wasn't being brandished as a weapon- I get the feeling it was more his attitude to the police that got him arrested rather than anything else...

*sigh*

It isnt an offence, otherwise every single builder where you are up there is committing an offence, so is every plumber and electrician on their way to a job, and every person who bought one and takes it home.

Its only illegal if you do not have a reasonable excuse - ie. if you are a yob carrying it around for what is no other reason than to stab people.

But yes, a stanley knife does constitute a lock knife.

 

[pxl8]

But, we don't know if a member of public made the call to the cops, who was troubled about seeing the knife, or confused about the law. Perhaps thats why the cops responded in such away, especially considering all the press coverage about knife crime cuasing increased public sensitivity.

As I said above. If the police had received a report of a man with a knife they wouldn't have stopped him under s.44 of the anti-terror laws. Clearly they were responding to a report or their own judgement that a man taking photographs in that location was suspicious.

Its time to stop cop bashing and move on!!!

Agreed, the issue that needs addressing is the paranoia that's been bred on the back of anti-terror, etc. because that, IMO, is the real cause of incidents like this. If, for the artist in the story, the police were simply responding to a report then the question we need to ask is why is a bloke taking photographs a cause for concern? Maybe the person who reported it was doing what they thought best at the time, better to be safe than sorry, etc. But what seed caused them to think along those lines in the first place? More importantly, what, if anything can be done about it?

 

[Byker28i]

Don't ask me about the Badger Baiting Act, I'll probably say it's something to do with photographing badgers and sieze your camera.

I think it's something to do with harrassing a badger by calling him a skunk :shrug:

 

[Rob.Marsh]

As I said above. If the police had received a report of a man with a knife they wouldn't have stopped him under s.44 of the anti-terror laws. Clearly they were responding to a report or their own judgement that a man taking photographs in that location was suspicious.

Fair Point, something I overlooked there.

Agreed, the issue that needs addressing is the paranoia that's been bred on the back of anti-terror, etc. because that, IMO, is the real cause of incidents like this. If, for the artist in the story, the police were simply responding to a report then the question we need to ask is why is a bloke taking photographs a cause for concern? Maybe the person who reported it was doing what they thought best at the time, better to be safe than sorry, etc. But what seed caused them to think along those lines in the first place? More importantly, what, if anything can be done about it?

Another good point. I really blame the paranoia on the sensationalist press outfits. I personally can't see any other cause. If the press covered things with a more honest practical outlook, and we as a society reject the fear mongering, we'd be half way there.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

*sigh*

It isnt an offence, otherwise every single builder where you are up there is committing an offence, so is every plumber and electrician on their way to a job, and every person who bought one and takes it home.

Its only illegal if you do not have a reasonable excuse - ie. if you are a yob carrying it around for what is no other reason than to stab people.

But yes, a stanley knife does constitute a lock knife.

I should have made my point clearer and included the words "without a reasonable excuse"

In that case, the police must have decided he didn't have a "reasonable excuse", otherwise there'd be no reason for them to confiscate and destroy it, would there?

Oh and if you want to be pedantic, stanley knives are rarely, if ever, used to inflict stab wounds, they tend to be used to slash or cut, but you knew that, didn't you?

 

[pxl8]

I really blame the paranoia on the sensationalist press outfits. I personally can't see any other cause. If the press covered things with a more honest practical outlook, and we as a society reject the fear mongering, we'd be half way there.

I guess the met jumped on the bandwagon too:

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.u...viour_of_people_with_cameras_news_195594.html

 

[Tyke Tiler]

Every time the anti terrorism legislation is used, (ridiculously in most cases) the event inevitably makes the papers and raises the profile on the war against terrorism, it looks like they are on top of things, being vigilant, the majority of the public feel and have the illusion that the security services are in control, when in fact they have not got a clue.

The legislation is precisely that: ridiculous, that's why it's often found exercised in ridiculous cases in ridiculous manners by blind and jaded individuals.

The War On Errorism. :thumbsdown:

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Have any actual terrorists been arrested whilst taking pics in London with dslrs?

 

[pxl8]

No found any reports, only some that say photos weren't used for 9/11 or 7th July.

 

[Rob.Marsh]

I guess the met jumped on the bandwagon too:

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.u...viour_of_people_with_cameras_news_195594.html

I don't see that the same as papers sensationalising various different events.

The newspaper advertising campaign, published nationwide, states: 'Terrorists use surveillance to help plan attacks, taking photos and making notes about security measures like the location of CCTV cameras. If you see someone doing that, we need to know. Let experienced officers decide what action to take.'

Thats saying, if you see a guy looking like he is casing the joint report it. Nothing wrong with that,

Its not saying police will use s44 to target photographers and give them a hard time.

What I meant about the press is the way they change thier tune depending on what they think sells at the time. ONe minute a photographer could be a "victim" of being stopped and quizzed by cops, the next min, if they thing it would sell the paper it could be cop find man in park taking photo's of children playing and let him go. Are our kids safe?
Get what I mean? If press covered things better, and stopped winding up and instilling fear, that would help things alot!

I hope I am explaining myself ok, I'm not so sure I am!!

 

[Flash In The Pan]

No found any reports, only some that say photos weren't used for 9/11 or 7th July.

I seem to remember that the London/Glasgow ones had cameras.....disposable film ones which were used in the bomb making.

That's probably enough evidence for the Met to brand every photographer as a homicidal maniac :shake:

 

[LJR]

Lock knife to sharpen pencils? lol Riiiiiiiiight.

My advice is that he invests in a smaller, lighter, more acceptable pencil sharpener. Sounds like he was arrested for carrying a knife - rightly so.

 

[pxl8]

Thats saying, if you see a guy looking like he is casing the joint report it. Nothing wrong with that.

But it plants the seed, see a bloke you don't like the look of holding a camera, call the cops. They, in turn, have to respond and treat the person as a potential terrorist.

Its not saying police will use s44 to target photographers and give them a hard time.

The police shouldn't be using s.44 in most of these reports. The guidelines clearly state they are for exceptional circumstances and, as I've mentioned in other threads, how many times had the area where s.44 was used been properly authorised as such?

 

[Tyke Tiler]

Have any actual terrorists been arrested whilst taking pics in London with dslrs?

No found any reports, only some that say photos weren't used for 9/11 or 7th July.

Excellent points.

There are also hundreds of reports that there is no hard evidence connecting any form of real world terrorist organizations being held accoutable or responsible for any of the supposed terror attacks either, including the official F.B.I statement.

 

[pxl8]

Lock knife to sharpen pencils? lol Riiiiiiiiight.

Actually I have 3 knives for sharpening pencils. A locking stanley knife, a small 2" folding knife and a scalpel.

 

[joelhall]

to be fair the police arent generally paranoid about terrorists everywhere, nor do they exercises their powers to justify wars. they do however carry out their duties according to guidance from the home office and superiors, and no - while they do not know every law inside out they are trained in their powers of stop, search and arrest.

this indeed is the problem... how do you know if someone IS a terrorist? you dont as theyll be sure to seem innocent. therefore the terror acts allows police (and write this down) to stop and search everyone for practically any reason. was it acceptable here? probably not. but the law does allow it.

this has caused the same outrage as the 42 day detention plans. it is moving towards a police state, where more and more laws dictate speech rights, etc. it would seem that the idea here is that either the government is trying to use heavy-handed laws to suppress people (it is just a tad over the top you can be arrested for putting rubbish in the wrong bin), or simple that they try to force us to do what they think is best.... the nanny state. this gets very annoying as most new laws are common sense, but they are being to heavily controlled, while serious offences (or real crimes if you prefer) are being viewed more leniently by the police (occaisionally) and cps (often).

whether we like it or not however, the average policeman isnt the brain of britain nor are they all nice people. alot of people will have first hand experience that some police just love to order you about. and they will pick up on anything. as alot of the older or retired police have told me, gone are the days when you could use good judgement to preserve the queens peace (the polices primary duty), its a different breed of copper now.

as regards this case some comments here i feel were a bit too hasty. such as saying a small blade does not constitute wanting to stab someone. true, people dont stab other people simple because knives exist, and to argue the other way is folly. yes the police could have used their judgment here and decided to issue guidance rather than arrest. some are just trigger happy im afraid. theyre human, they have the power, get over it.

its the same way with firearms laws. if im transporting one of my rifles whether it be covered, cased, or locked in a vehicle, i have to ensure it is unloaded, that i do not stray onto private property without landowner permission, and that i have reasonable excuse to be carrying it. that is what the law states and if i like it or not, break any of these conditions (or have the police not believe my excuse) and ill be in very serious trouble, more than likely involving prison. theres many other stringent laws and they all result in much legal bother.

and just so you know this has got more heavily dealt with since gang shootings have risen. the media and government certainly do have a lot to answer for when it comes to public & professional reaction to these things.

 

[Grant]

If I was a terrorist, I'd keep cover and use Flickr.

 

[blueearthling]

I have been stopped a few times by police taking pictures. they have always asked politley what i am taking pics off and ask if they could see a few examples.
They have my details on their system. I am known to the local police, not once have they treated me badly, they just want to make surethat i am doing what i say i am and i dont find it depriving of any of my rights.

I have even got pictures with the coppers in question. If you have nothing ot hide so why argue the toss about rights.

If you are know to the local Police, then why did you get stopped more than once?

 

[joelhall]

indeed why do they keep your details if youre not a criminal?

 

[Curious]

Lock knife to sharpen pencils? lol Riiiiiiiiight.

My advice is that he invests in a smaller, lighter, more acceptable pencil sharpener. Sounds like he was arrested for carrying a knife - rightly so.

An artist will often need to shape the leads on his/her pencils, a sharpener doesnt quite do that, a knife has been used by artists for as long as artists have existed.

In that case, the police must have decided he didn't have a "reasonable excuse", otherwise there'd be no reason for them to confiscate and destroy it, would there?

Yes but the police also move along photographers in public places when they are doing no wrong. Theres no reason to do that now is there?

Oh and if you want to be pedantic, stanley knives are rarely, if ever, used to inflict stab wounds, they tend to be used to slash or cut, but you knew that, didn't you?

Yes they are, my mistake, kitchen knives are those most commonly used in stabbings. I retract my previous statement. But you get my point.

Pedantry is nothing to do with it, the police are just not well read on law - which I am absolutely not bitching about, because quite frankly, it would be impossible for every police officer to know every law. I'm just letting the people in the thread know, there was, most likely, absolutely nothing wrong with the knife.

 

[joelhall]

personally i use scalpels and razor blades to shape leads too. knives ae too clumsy.

 

[blueearthling]

personally i use scalpels and razor blades to shape leads too. knives ae too clumsy.

It's not the knive that is clumsy, its the individual who is using it.

 

[LJR]

An artist will often need to shape the leads on his/her pencils, a sharpener doesnt quite do that, a knife has been used by artists for as long as artists have existed.

Great. Then sharpen them at home. It's basic preparation really. Simple truth is that it's illegal to carry a lock knife - I don't think artists are excluded from that law.