Panamoz, Hdew, etc etc

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wooster said:
Another question. If people feel these companies are operating illegally and hurting their own business why not take it up with either HMRC or trading standards or someone? Is it really the case that the UK and US authorities are so powerless they can do nothing?
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as i said earlier the companies arent operating illegally - its perfectly legal to sell something over the internet from hong kong , the tax and import duty is the responsibility of the buyer.

admittedly misdeclaring the value (as some but not all grey importers reportedly do) is a bit naughty to uk eyes, but these companies arent under uk law , so what are HMRC supposed to do about a company operating under PRC juristriction ?

What will happen eventually i suspect is that customs will start clamping down on misdeclared imports - currently the worst that can happen if you get caught at customs is that they hold your goods until you pay the duty and vat... if the laws said that anything misdeclared or not declared properly would be confiscated then far fewer people would take the risk
 
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big soft moose said:
The only exception is if the grey importer is bringing imports to a uk base and selling them from there (which not many do , though many claim to be uk based when they actually arent)
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But HDEW are UK based hence my query
 
wooster said:
But HDEW are UK based hence my query
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they are - they are importing the lens themselves and as you've established paying their tax etc

However Hdew arent typical of the grey import market - in fact now that kerso isnt trading i can't think of another grey importer with a genuine uk base
 
big soft moose said:
i can't think of another grey importer with a genuine uk base
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Indeed. One possible explanation for this is that, once the importer has paid import duty and VAT, there's no price advantage to being "grey".
 
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StewartR said:
Indeed. One possible explanation for this is that, once the importer has paid import duty and VAT, there's no price advantage to bring "grey".
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indeed - the only exception to that i can think of is when stuff is first launched and they do the dollars to pounds thing on price $999 in the Us £999 in the uk - thenit might be economic to buy at $999 and pay the import duty and still come out ahead
 
BillN_33 said:
Pay by bloody Credit Card if you are nervous, which most people do anyway …. let the Bank take the financial risk of non delivery as if the Bank gives them the CC facility they should ensure that they are legit!!!
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In the case of Panamoz, you can't pay by credit card. You can only pay by direct bank transfer or via Paypal and I happen to know for a fact that if you use Paypal, your transaction is with Paypal, NOT the goods supplier and therefore if anything goes wrong the credit card will not help you because in their eyes there is nothing wrong with your transaction with Paypal; you have no credit card protection whatsoever and this is the same with anything you use Paypal to buy.
 
Well I will continue to make a big saving by buying form HDEW with a clear conscience then. I don't buy from any other grey dealer at the moment and they seem to be able to sell an awful lot cheaper legally than non-grey companies and even some others like Digital rev
 
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One company ( now no longer trading) I bought from got around VAT by sending a lens as return repair, even though it was new, to get it through customs. More than likely I still have the paperwork somewhere
 
ShinySideUp said:
In the case of Panamoz, you can't pay by credit card. You can only pay by direct bank transfer or via Paypal and I happen to know for a fact that if you use Paypal, your transaction is with Paypal, NOT the goods supplier and therefore if anything goes wrong the credit card will not help you because in their eyes there is nothing wrong with your transaction with Paypal; you have no credit card protection whatsoever and this is the same with anything you use Paypal to buy.
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I've paid by credit card on all my purchases from them.
 
momoka said:
I've paid by credit card on all my purchases from them.
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the point he was making is that their credit card transactions are processed by paypal - this is standard with most grey importers (whether its paypal, mals cart, googlecheckout etc) and indeed with many uk websites.

when you pay through an intermediary like this you lose most of your credit card protection vi a vis consumer rights because the card company no longer has a direct relationship with the supplier
 
realspeed said:
One company ( now no longer trading) I bought from got around VAT by sending a lens as return repair, even though it was new, to get it through customs. More than likely I still have the paperwork somewhere
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so they didnt get arround the vat then - they lied on the paperwork so it wouldnt be picked up (ie the lens was essentially smuggled under false declaration) , and in not declaring that they had you commited an evasion offence (because assuming they sent it from abroad) you were the importer and liable for paying the appropriate charges... on the whole I wouldnt shout about that too loud
 
These threads always go the same way. :rolleyes:
 
In the year I have been shooting DSLR I have bought all my four Canon L lenses from TP Classified and my bodies new from Park Cameras.

I am now planning to replace my 300mm and 400mm primes with the new 100-400mm II zoom which I will be buying new.

Having read ALL this thread I would feel comfortable and confident in buying from HDEW and not from the other grey importers. Frankly, I don't agree with the iniquitous vat being charged on anything! So if it can be avoided (rather than evaded) that's absolutely fine by me and I shall delight in doing so.

So, thanks to all for this thread (y)
 
I already have my next lens purchase lined up with Panamoz, saving me over £300.
 
That's a good saving.
My `moneyboss` is treating me to a new lens for Christmas from HDEW & saving nearly £400
 
big soft moose said:
they are - they are importing the lens themselves and as you've established paying their tax etc

However Hdew arent typical of the grey import market - in fact now that kerso isnt trading i can't think of another grey importer with a genuine uk base
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StewartR said:
Indeed. One possible explanation for this is that, once the importer has paid import duty and VAT, there's no price advantage to bring "grey".
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Cotswold Cameras, except they at more DR/Panamoz like and don't provide VAT receipts.
 
RedRobin said:
Having read ALL this thread I would feel comfortable and confident in buying from HDEW and not from the other grey importers. Frankly, I don't agree with the iniquitous vat being charged on anything! So if it can be avoided (rather than evaded) that's absolutely fine by me and I shall delight in doing so.

So, thanks to all for this thread (y)
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I agree re HDEW but they do comply with the law including VAT so it's all good either way
 
Not really, its a thread about said company. If people want nothing to do with them, that's fine, so why click the thread at all?
 
The thread is about grey importers in general, not HDEW in particular and personally, I found reading the replies has helped me greatly in my buying decisions. The postings have generally been informative and interesting and have given me a new insight into the machinations of getting cheaper stuff direct from foreign climes.

For those that want to (in my opinion) risk their cash to get a cheap deal then more power to them. Me? I prefer to fork out the extra money for credit card protection, full European manufacturers warranty and general peace of mind that the UK consumer credit act and buyer protections provide me with, especially when I am paying out large sums of money.
 
robj20 said:
Not really, its a thread about said company. If people want nothing to do with them, that's fine, so why click the thread at all?
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If you find these threads so repetitive, why did you click the thread at all?

Oh yes, to post something antagonistic to try and get the thread to kick off. Bravo.
 
Llamaman said:
If you find these threads so repetitive, why did you click the thread at all?

Oh yes, to post something antagonistic to try and get the thread to kick off. Bravo.
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Andy, read what you've quoted. I think Rob has pretty much said the same as you (ie, if you don't want to read the thread, don't click on it)

Also, if you feel that someone has posted something antagonistic to try to get the thread to kick off, report it. Calling someone out in thread is actually more likely to get the thread to kick off.
 
All this personal bickering is becoming a nuisance when other forum members watching/posting in this thread get notified of new posts to only find such tedium.

By all means argue politely or debate a subject, but...
 
robj20 said:
I already have my next lens purchase lined up with Panamoz, saving me over £300.
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About a month ago I bought a lens from Panamoz, my first purchase from them, mainly motivated by the positive reports on this forum.
I saved more than £300 over a similar item from Wex, but I also noticed that Panamoz are not the cheapest for everything.
For example, on a Canon 1.4x or 2x convertor, they are actually more expensive than the same thing at Wex, which is puzzling.

I think there are two aspects to threads like this one.
The first is "What warranty do I have on a grey import?"
The second is "Are they evading VAT or other taxes?"
Regarding the second one, I think most buyers simply don't care, and are mostly interested in the bottom line of how much the item will cost them.
The loss, if any, to HMRC of any VAT is less than the cost of enforcing collection anyway, so I don't think people should be losing any sleep over that aspect.
On the HMRC website, they say that they (HMRC) have "special arrangements" with some overseas suppliers (including some based in Hong Kong) regarding the collection of VAT, so without any further information it's impossible to say how the companies being discussed are operating.

Regarding warranty, it would appear that most items are so reliable that there has been very little need for warranty claims, but for those that have needed it, the warranty service offered by the grey importers appears to have been very good, sometimes even better than that offered by the "official" importers.
 
Brian G said:
About a month ago I bought a lens from Panamoz, my first purchase from them, mainly motivated by the positive reports on this forum.
I saved more than £300 over a similar item from Wex, but I also noticed that Panamoz are not the cheapest for everything.
For example, on a Canon 1.4x or 2x convertor, they are actually more expensive than the same thing at Wex, which is puzzling.

I think there are two aspects to threads like this one.
The first is "What warranty do I have on a grey import?"
The second is "Are they evading VAT or other taxes?"
Regarding the second one, I think most buyers simply don't care, and are mostly interested in the bottom line of how much the item will cost them.
The loss, if any, to HMRC of any VAT is less than the cost of enforcing collection anyway, so I don't think people should be losing any sleep over that aspect.
On the HMRC website, they say that they (HMRC) have "special arrangements" with some overseas suppliers (including some based in Hong Kong) regarding the collection of VAT, so without any further information it's impossible to say how the companies being discussed are operating.

Regarding warranty, it would appear that most items are so reliable that there has been very little need for warranty claims, but for those that have needed it, the warranty service offered by the grey importers appears to have been very good, sometimes even better than that offered by the "official" importers.
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leaving aside the ethical aspects of not caring about commiting a crime there are two other things to consider (although if buyers really don't care about anything other than bottom line cost I hear you can get great deals on stolen kit in certain pubs)

on a) If you get caught importing and have to pay the import tax and vat will it still be a bargain ? (in a lot of cases grey items are actually more than UK street once import taxc etc is added)

and on b) The grey importers warranty may be fine while they are trading but what happens when they go bust ? Anyone who bought from Bignorman for example will be right in the crap if they need a waranty repair.
 
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Ethics have little to do with it as anyone who has run their own business knows, the wretched taxman takes but never gives. It's all a game - Just avoid and don't evade.

Otherwise, yer pays yer money and you takes yer pick - Simples.
 
big soft moose said:
the point he was making is that their credit card transactions are processed by paypal - this is standard with most grey importers (whether its paypal, mals cart, googlecheckout etc) and indeed with many uk websites.

when you pay through an intermediary like this you lose most of your credit card protection vi a vis consumer rights because the card company no longer has a direct relationship with the supplier
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Sorry I could have been clearer. I paid with credit card, not via the credit card PayPal option. They give out details if you request this method and the BACS too.
 
End of the day you pays your money and takes your choice and theres clearly a sliding scale of risk/reward - for example if you take the 7D2

Clifton Cameras (Uk stock) have it at £1599

Hdew (UK based but grey stock) have it at £1340

Panamoz (HK based grey stock) have it at £1240

Samscams (dodgy as f*** ebay dealer with awful feedback) have it at £1099

Personally I'll probbably buy it from Clifton as I'll avail myself of their 0% interest finance , but its up to any individual how much risk they want to take in return for increased savings - the only thing i'd say is the last one might be better reffered to as Sams Scams based on their feedback
 
LOL :D I was about to post exactly the same "Sams Scams"!

I could have saved about £300 if I had bought from HDEW but hey-ho why would I want to waste time waiting and missing learning how to use the 7D2 sooner, so no regrets here.
 
HDEW cameras are based in the UK although the items they sell are imported. I paid down £200 on my Canon 5D Mk3 and paid the rest when it was ready for collection at their offices in South London.

They can't be beaten on price/customer service.
 
TrueLee478 said:
HDEW cameras are based in the UK although the items they sell are imported. I paid down £200 on my Canon 5D Mk3 and paid the rest when it was ready for collection at their offices in South London.

They can't be beaten on price/customer service.
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How do you work that one out? They are not always the cheapest that's is for sure. And the customer service is debatable also.
 
big soft moose said:
leaving aside the ethical aspects of not caring about commiting a crime there are two other things to consider (although if buyers really don't care about anything other than bottom line cost I hear you can get great deals on stolen kit in certain pubs)

on a) If you get caught importing and have to pay the import tax and vat will it still be a bargain ? (in a lot of cases grey items are actually more than UK street once import taxc etc is added)

and on b) The grey importers warranty may be fine while they are trading but what happens when they go bust ? Anyone who bought from Bignorman for example will be right in the crap if they need a waranty repair.
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There's another thing that concerns me on the 'moral' side of things. If we buy imported goods from an overseas seller, even from within the EU, all the money goes out of the UK, there is no benefit to the UK economy or to UK employment - zero. If we buy from a UK-based seller, even a grey importer like HDEW, there will at least be employment, salaries and income tax paid, rent and rates etc, and some small contribution to keeping a UK photographic retail presence.

This is actually what I regret most about the whole grey business. I would prefer it if we all paid VAT etc (the grey market is really hitting second-hand values - check the classified section here) and I would like the assurance of full warranty, though I've never made a warranty claim in 40 years.

The more I think about this, the less sympathetic I am towards the plight of official UK importers/distributors. They are either wholly owned or controlled by the Japanese manufacturers who could all quite easily put a 99% stop to grey importing - they control the supply, and they should pay for warranty work regardless of where the product was purchased. But unofficially they actually condone the grey market, albeit to the frustration of the UK arm - it's another channel, a very flexible one that they can use, and abuse, when it suits them. They've been doing it for decades.

At the end of the day, manufacturers supplying grey channels are making a simple business decision, purely based on shifting product and short-term financial considerations, without much thought for anything else. Pretty much the same set of rules as grey buyers.
 
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My D750 arrived next day delivery from HDEW today, £1215 (£535 less than the cheapest 'conventional' UK retailer) and dispatched from Croydon, so as far as I can tell I've done absolutely nothing 'wrong', as I've not imported it personally, not signed for under-valued goods etc etc, the only possible downside being that my warranty is direct with HDEW, not Nikon. What I struggle to process is that I could even have asked (and received) a VAT receipt. Surely £1215 must be nearing cost if they are selling at £1750 or more in the UK.
 
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ukaskew said:
My D750 arrived next day delivery from HDEW today, £1215 (£535 less than the cheapest 'conventional' UK retailer) and dispatched from Croydon, so as far as I can tell I've done absolutely nothing 'wrong', as I've not imported it personally, not signed for under-valued goods etc etc, the only possible downside being that my warranty is direct with HDEW, not Nikon. What I struggle to process is that I could even have asked (and received) a VAT receipt. Surely £1215 must be nearing cost if they are selling at £1750 or more in the UK.
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We then have then got to ask ourselves how can they do it and Jessops, Wex and others can't. Are the UK shops ripping us off or Nikon UK? To me it seems that way with the VAT paid by companies like HDEW, the figures seem a long way apart. What are Nikon UK doing about this, nothing by the looks of things.

Technology with the WWW has opened up a huge market for some people. You only got to look on ebay to see the amount of sales with other companies, which are UK based, selling for a lot less than UK high street shops. Also, AFAIK HDEW have also got a shop front?
 
its also noticeable that the price HDEW charge for say the 7D2 is only about £100 more than most of the non vat paid suppliers... so assuming HDEW are paying their duty etc as they say they are you have to wonder about the prices from some of the others

vat and import tax on £1340 is going to be the best part of 300 quid (the vat comes out at 224, i can't be arsed to calculate the exact import duty) - that would make the ex vat price about £1050 - but all the non vat paid importers apart from the dodgy scam ones are considerably more than that.
 
big soft moose said:
its also noticeable that the price HDEW charge for say the 7D2 is only about £100 more than most of the non vat paid suppliers... so assuming HDEW are paying their duty etc as they say they are you have to wonder about the prices from some of the others

vat and import tax on £1340 is going to be the best part of 300 quid (the vat comes out at 224, i can't be arsed to calculate the exact import duty) - that would make the ex vat price about £1050 - but all the non vat paid importers apart from the dodgy scam ones are considerably more than that.
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There won't be import duty on a DSLR body. VAT is only.
 
The government scam people every day, A pensioner gets state benefits and if has a private pension as well or money from other means they take it away if over the personal allowance. That is the biggest crooked deal of all time. What you earn you pay tax on, what you spend you pay tax on, and what you manage to save you get deducted on.

No wonder if someone can get a product cheaper via grey imports I say good luck to them
 
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realspeed said:
The government scam people every day, A pensioner gets state benefits and if has a private pension as well or money from other means they take it away if over the personal allowance. That is the biggest crooked deal of all time
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and when you die they swoop in for the final take …. basturds

Invest and save all you life - if you sell anything at a profit - they want 28% or 40% and then if you die "rich" because your house that you have had for 50 year is worth a load, they rip another 40% from your kids

simplistic I know - but you get my drift
 
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