Panamoz, Hdew, etc etc

[momoka]

There is nothing stopping a UK personal importer declaring the full value, paying the tax and reclaiming from the supplier where promises of such refunds are included in the deal. Customer gets bargain. HMRC gets tax due. Where is the moral dilemma?

Exactly, I agree.

Even when you not reclaim the VAT, in a lot of cases it is still cheaper than buying in UK.

 

[Bernie174]

Stewart

OK, I did as you suggest.

Canon 5D Mk3

UK Price (Wex) £2299
HK Price HKD 19988 (£1646)
UK VAT £329 + base Price £1975
Difference £323

Yep still a lot cheaper, as I said before, the price I found a over the counter price, if you buy in bulk, from the local canon office, then that base price is going to be lower, and therefore so will the VAT.

Yes, I accept there a vast difference between the overheads in HK and in the UK, if it was £100 difference then I'd agree, but come on it's not, it's over £300.

Also, that price difference (bearing in mind that the HKD price includes whatever sales taxes they have there), does not indicate harmonization!

If prices were harmonized then Canon/Nikon and whoever else wouldn't give a toss where you bought your camera. It's suggested on here (and I have no knowledge one way or the other) that it gives them the screaming hump.

In any case my point was to demonstrate it's perfectly possible to buy abroad, pay any taxes due on importing and then re sell perfectly legitimately and the price still be far less than the UK retail value, that's been demonstrated quite clearly with what I've said.

I suspect much of the fuss being made here is more about snobbery from some, and less about the reality of the situation. I notice a lot of hearsay, eg "I have been told about an invoice", but not once on any of these threads on the subject have I seen that invoice put into the discussion by way of a picture inbedded, although to be fair it isn't much good as evidence as any fool can put an invoice together.

 

[ianp5a]

Personally I'd split the 325 quid I saved and send half to Canon UK and half to the VAT man so I don't feel like a crook. ...not!

 

[Colin Glover]

Amazon have refunded my money from my brand new and faulty Nikon D750 so I'm looking to buy again and I have followed chat about Panamoz etc with great interest and find myself tempted by the savings but also extremely concerned about faulty goods, returns and warranties.

Generally, both shop-front and well-known internet retailers are selling the D750 for £1799, give or take a bit, but Panamoz and the like are doing the same camera for about £1300 -- generally about five hundred quid cheaper.

Now call me a cynic but I've always followed the maxim that if something seems to good to be true it probably is and these prices seem to fall into this category.

My basic question is: how do these discounting retailers mange to knock five hundred smackers off the normal price? Why is it that they do not have the Nikon warranty? If there practices are up there with established retailers why do they not sweep the board in sales (can't be just because of people like me, can it?)?

My stepson used to work for Homebase and gave me and insight to the UK retail margins. We have a Conservative government in the who are all for free market enterprise. For that read "Make as much profit from as you can". In the late 90's the Labour government put an end to price fixing in the electronic and computer industry, and UK prices haven't been as high as they were pound for features. Except for Photography and cars. The Tory attitude has been this: We'll let you charge what you want, work it out between mfrs and retailers. We'll let you overcharge customers and charge smaller retailers high trade prices to protect your business. One camera shop owner wrote to Amateur Photography magazine saying Amazon were selling cameras cheaper than he could buy in at trade price. My stepson said that on a £100 compact Homebase (who sell cameras on their website as well as owning Argos who sell loads of cameras) pay about £25.00. On a DSLR it will be a similar thing with an £825 70D costing about £200 or thereabouts. Now Hdew buy in from Hk or JP and pay duty as per Hmrc, and after adding Vodka And Tonic can still make a profit by selling it for £605.00. It's just a lower margin than going direct to canons uk suppliers who would probably charge them £6-700. As I said the Tories are all for protecting big business profits. They let the mfrs and retailers collude to inflate prices. We need an OFT investigation to put an end to this. Having said this, our friends down under have to pay even more through the nose than us Brits.

 

[RedRobin]

My stepson used to work for Homebase and gave me and insight to the UK retail margins. We have a Conservative government in the who are all for free market enterprise. For that read "Make as much profit from as you can". In the late 90's the Labour government put an end to price fixing in the electronic and computer industry, and UK prices haven't been as high as they were pound for features. Except for Photography and cars. The Tory attitude has been this: We'll let you charge what you want, work it out between mfrs and retailers. We'll let you overcharge customers and charge smaller retailers high trade prices to protect your business. One camera shop owner wrote to Amateur Photography magazine saying Amazon were selling cameras cheaper than he could buy in at trade price. My stepson said that on a £100 compact Homebase (who sell cameras on their website as well as owning Argos who sell loads of cameras) pay about £25.00. On a DSLR it will be a similar thing with an £825 70D costing about £200 or thereabouts. Now Hdew buy in from Hk or JP and pay duty as per Hmrc, and after adding Vodka And Tonic can still make a profit by selling it for £605.00. It's just a lower margin than going direct to canons uk suppliers who would probably charge them £6-700. As I said the Tories are all for protecting big business profits. They let the mfrs and retailers collude to inflate prices. We need an OFT investigation to put an end to this. Having said this, our friends down under have to pay even more through the nose than us Brits.

....Oh, I see, so you are blaming the Tories for everything! I hope the rest of your posts aren't going to be a whinge about politics. Leave your politics at the door, please - It can only fuel never ending and never resolvable arguments which usually take threads way off topic.

 

[tdodd]

The people to blame are those willing to pay these inflated prices in the first place. The beauty of supply and demand is that if people refuse to pay then prices will drop, especially when they are so heavily padded to begin with. Manufacturers and suppliers have a duty to their shareholders to maximise profit, so don't blame them or the Tories if that's what they try to do. The blame lies with the public and I refuse to be part of the problem. A lesson is best learned through the wallet.

 

[ianp5a]

I blame Fatcher! She dunnit.

 

[fracster]

I blame Fatcher! She dunnit.

I blame the Peoples Front of Judea.

 

[ianp5a]

Yeah! Splitters!

 

[StewartR]

D610 - Wex £1285:00 - Panamoz £907:00
D7000 - Wex £768:00 - Panamoz £560:00
Df - Wex £2099:00 - Panamoz £1429:00

Interesting. Take the VAT out of the WEx prices and they are £1071, £640 and £1749. So the amount by which Panamoz are cheaper is 16%, 12% and 18%. Those are bigger savings than I had expected.

Canon 5D Mk3

UK Price (Wex) £2299
HK Price HKD 19988 (£1646)
UK VAT £329 + base Price £1975
Difference £323

Interesting again. That makes the HK price 14% cheaper. Again, it's a bigger saving than I had expected.

 

[Bernie174]

Interesting again. That makes the HK price 14% cheaper. Again, it's a bigger saving than I had expected.

The problem is we (although some might), don't know the base value of each unit wholesale, either in the UK or HK, or anywhere else for that matter.

So while it's easy to assume that there's a tax fiddle going on, the reality is there doesn't seem to be. A restrictive sales regime by manufacturers seems to be much more likely to my mind.

 

[BillN_33]

you also have to consider exchange rates

 

[StewartR]

Perhaps my expectations regarding UK/HK prices are based on lenses, since 90% of my spending is on lenses, whereas all these examples are cameras. So I did some research of my own, based on the half-dozen most popular lenses in my stock.

Canon 100-400
Wex £1239
Panamoz £1000 + import duty + VAT = £1283
Panamoz 4% more expensive

Canon 70-200/2.8 IS II
WEx £1699
Panamoz £1335 + import duty + VAT = £1713
Panamoz 1% more expensive

Canon 24-70/2.8 II
WEx £1549
Panamoz £1225 + import duty + VAT = £1571
Panamoz 1% more expensive

Nikon 24-70/2.8
WEx £1235
Panamoz £992 + import duty + VAT = £1273
Panamoz 3% more expensive

Nikon 70-200/2.8 VR II
£1579
Panamoz £1335 + import duty + VAT = £1713
Panamoz 8% more expensive

Canon 16-35/2.8 II
WEx £1169
Panamoz £975 + import duty + VAT = £1251
Panamoz 7% more expensive

That's more like what I was expecting. In this sample of lenses, the grey prices are consistently a little bit more expensive when you account for taxes. It's consistent with my assertion that the UK market is competitive on price, and that grey importers aren't so attractive if you allow for taxes.

So what the heck was happening back there with that sample of cameras? Why should the lens market operate differently to the camera market? Any ideas?

 

[Deleted member 68495]

Having read all these posts I now consider myself pleased that I bought from a legit UK dealer even if it cost me more money. Almost everything that has been said about Panamoz and their ilk makes me think that somewhere in there is something distinctly dodgy and perhaps if I was buying something for fifty quid I might give it a go if it would save me another fifty quid since if it all went wrong, hey, I lost fifty quid. However, when I'm about to fork out over a thousand pounds for something I want all the guarantees I can get.

One thing that made up my mind for me (apart from the words on this thread) was the fact that Panamoz would not accept the last line of defence against problems and that is 'the credit card'. Their site says they accept credit cards but it is through Paypal which gives you no credit card protection at all since your deal is with Paypal, not Panamoz.

All that has been said here makes me think I would never, ever touch a grey import.

The above is just my opinion I know, but I feel better for it. For them as likes a bargain, regardless of it's origins, more power to your elbow; for me? Not so much.

 

[HoppyUK]

The problem is we (although some might), don't know the base value of each unit wholesale, either in the UK or HK, or anywhere else for that matter.

So while it's easy to assume that there's a tax fiddle going on, the reality is there doesn't seem to be. A restrictive sales regime by manufacturers seems to be much more likely to my mind.

There certainly is a tax fiddle going on, or more bluntly, simple and illegal non-payment of tax. Whether or not there is some other tax dodge, perhaps involving a circuitous supply route that legally avoids or minimises tax liability, is moot. I don't know, but I rather suspect there might be, if only because we can never get clear answers and it's all a bit murky.

Apart from avoiding tax, another quick way of taking a big chunk out of prices is to cut out the middle-man. Canon for example has both a European HQ in Holland, as well as Canon UK distribution, both taking a percentage before it reaches the UK dealer. If some Far Eastern retailers are able to get stock direct from the factory, then there's a big potential saving to be made in that.

 

[Bernie174]

So what the heck was happening back there with that sample of cameras? Why should the lens market operate differently to the camera market? Any ideas?

There's no import duty on digital cameras, but there is on lenses, or thats my understanding.
It also depends on what they pay as base price, if it's less than your example of WEX less Duty and VAT, then of course they are going to be cheaper.

Hoppy
Given that Hdew for example operate openly in the UK, do you not think if there was "illegal non-payment of tax. " that HMRC would have cottoned on a long time ago? Or could it be that by cutting out the middle man, buying abroad and paying the VAT that it really is much cheaper? I have a VAT receipt from my last 2 cameras I got from Hdew and the correct amount was paid, so there's been no tax evasion. If they can do it, so can all the other gray importers.

 

[Llamaman]

So what the heck was happening back there with that sample of cameras? Why should the lens market operate differently to the camera market? Any ideas?

For a long time, I assumed that camera manufacturers were driving down margins in bodies to;
1. Encourage people to buy DSLRs
2. Buy their brand
And then price gouge them on lenses once they're committed to a system.

But the evidence presented here suggests the opposite. I can offer three observations...
1. A lot of consumer bodies are sold with kit lenses and the buyer never buys anything else. The manufacturer's margin in these cases has to be on the body.
2. Camera bodies have a much shorter retail life than lenses. They need to recoup R&D over a much tighter timeframe.
3. Warranty. If they offer worldwide warranty on lenses but not bodies, people will be willing to pay more for a locally-sourced body.

 

[Canon Bob]

I suspect much of the fuss being made here is more about snobbery from some, and less about the reality of the situation. I notice a lot of hearsay, eg "I have been told about an invoice", but not once on any of these threads on the subject have I seen that invoice put into the discussion by way of a picture inbedded, although to be fair it isn't much good as evidence as any fool can put an invoice together.

You have the chance to remove the hearsay from the equation Bernie......I've PM you a link and password to my customs invoice. Whether or not you consider it to be "home made" is entirely up to you.

Bob

 

[Bernie174]

Could have made it easier for me, its taken me ages to translate that to English!
The deceleration is for a camera only able to record sound and vision from a TV. I presume thats not what the french call a camera lens?
I don't doubt its a genuine declaration, but I don't see how that proves that every gray importer is fiddling the tax!
Is the 98 figure the VAT paid or the import value of the goods? It's ambiguous if you look at HMRC's web site box 22 on an EU import declaration should be where the tax is added. Does that mean you add it to the value of the goods? Or is it where you add in meaning enter the VAT amount?
Whichever way you look at it, it doesn't provide any conclusive evidence that all gray imports are the result of tax fiddles. As I said, Hdew for example are very well known, if they were evading VAT, HMRC would be stamping on it. It's not a one man band operation working from the front room of a semi in suburbia.

 

[HoppyUK]

There's no import duty on digital cameras, but there is on lenses, or thats my understanding.
It also depends on what they pay as base price, if it's less than your example of WEX less Duty and VAT, then of course they are going to be cheaper.

Hoppy
Given that Hdew for example operate openly in the UK, do you not think if there was "illegal non-payment of tax. " that HMRC would have cottoned on a long time ago? Or could it be that by cutting out the middle man, buying abroad and paying the VAT that it really is much cheaper? I have a VAT receipt from my last 2 cameras I got from Hdew and the correct amount was paid, so there's been no tax evasion. If they can do it, so can all the other gray importers.

HDEW is an interesting example, and 'cutting out the middle-man' is certainly a theory that would explain a lot. But payment of VAT is not the norm with greys where VAT etc is simply not paid, and that's an easy and obvious explanation of the savings. I have seen VAT receipts from HDEW (published on here) but only supplied on request. Did you have to request VAT receipts, or did they come automatically? I'm not accusing anyone of anything, just trying to find answers

 

[Bernie174]

I asked for them.
I think your right, its an easy explanation, but a bit of research shows its perfectly possibly to get the sort of discounts that you get from hdew's type of company by legitimately importing goods and paying the VAT.
Its been alleged on here that the profit margin on cameras is quite high, I don't know if thats true, but if it is high in the UK, and much lower elsewhere, then I'd say the legitimate import is a more obvious and just as simple answer.
I don't doubt there are some companies about who do fiddle the Exchequer, but the fact that the hdews of the world are very prominent and well known is reasonably good evidence they are above board.

 

[Canon Bob]

Is the 98 figure the VAT paid or the import value of the goods? .

£98 was the declared value of the item (about 14% of the price I paid the vendor)...... and the TVA (VAT) was Eur 27.00.

The item was a lens and the description on the customs' documents was a poor translation.

Bob

 

[HoppyUK]

I asked for them.
I think your right, its an easy explanation, but a bit of research shows its perfectly possibly to get the sort of discounts that you get from hdew's type of company by legitimately importing goods and paying the VAT.
Its been alleged on here that the profit margin on cameras is quite high, I don't know if thats true, but if it is high in the UK, and much lower elsewhere, then I'd say the legitimate import is a more obvious and just as simple answer.
I don't doubt there are some companies about who do fiddle the Exchequer, but the fact that the hdews of the world are very prominent and well known is reasonably good evidence they are above board.

You had to ask for a VAT receipt - why is that not issued automatically on all purchases? That's why the VAT question still hangs.

 

[Llamaman]

And do you have to request the VAT receipt at the time of order or can you request it later? That would give a big insight into what's going on...

 

[BillN_33]

Cannot understand what all you guys are going on about. Both companies seem to have first class service reputations from people on here. They advertise and sell the products, deliver them on time and unless you are claiming the VAT back why do you need a VAT invoice. No criminal action has been taken against them and, if anything, they are probably just legally exploiting a tax loop hole.

You get up to a 3 year guarantee which is NOT a Nikon guarantee ……. so that is part of the reason prices are lower….. lower margins throughout the supply change are always possible and ……. if they arbitrate exchange rates correctly they could easily save another 5% to x% …….
International transfer pricing is complicated, involving many things …… just look at how Nikon charge different prices in different markets.

There is clearly a VAT saving scheme in play, but as yet it seem to be only that.

It's not complicated or whatever, it is just how international business works in this internet age …….. buyers/sellers have the ability to almost create a perfect market, if it is not done one way it will be done another….. and the bigger suppliers and manufacturers become the more (different) deals are possible and the more they have to shift the stock which they constantly produce

If you are all trying to police "morals" there are lots of places nearer at home that you could look at.

 

[Bernie174]

You had to ask for a VAT receipt - why is that not issued automatically on all purchases?

I don't know is the simple answer, but I do know I've spoken to them in the past, I am happy with the way they do business and everything is above board. I've also spoken to HMRC, and it seems they had no concerns.
If you want definite answers, you are better off asking either Hdew or HMRC. I can offer you my alternative explanation to why they are cheaper, based on what they tell me, and simply looking at the facts, but the exact details of the ins and outs are better addressed to them.

 

[BillN_33]

Lets look at a few commercial reasons why prices could be cheaper.

Any ad valorem tax inflates price differences significantly especially at a 20% rate.

We all assume that the equipment that is supplied is “non UK supplied”.

UK official prices are not the measure for world prices .. far from it

Looking at a major camera supplier

a). How much does Nikon UK/Europe cost to run. This cost is reflected in UK prices.

b). Nikon UK etc., fix there prices annually in £ sterling. They do not change their prices from month to month when exchange rates move, (exchange rate can move significantly even day to day). This annual pricing procedure is standard in many western countries, but is not in some others. The "suppliers/sellers" could be sourcing their supplies in several countries depending on the best exchange rate. They can still be supplied direct to HK from Japan or wherever, but it depends who they are invoiced to and how they are invoiced.

c). Quantity bonus payments and retrospective discounts can come into play. It is not uncommon for large customers to buy larger quantities than they can retail to obtain such reductions, then passing on significant quantities to other sellers at reduced price. These pre arranged deals can be common.

d). As products pass through a supply chain costs are added, simply the supply chain and costs can be reduced.

Any savings above are added to by a reduction in the absolute VAT, e.g. if the pre VAT price is £1,000, the VAT inclusive price selling price £1,200 ……. but if the pre VAT price is only £700, giving a VAT price of £840, then a saving of £300 in the base price gives a customer saving of £360 ……..save £300 and the customer saves £360

Also if transactions are passed through countries with no VAT or low import taxes, the situation becomes more unclear, especially if such jurisdictions have arrangements with the EU.

Taxation is a significant cost for any organisation, (just like power, people or rent and rates), and it is reflected in everything that we buy, it should not be taken for granted and companies will always do what they can, within the law, to save tax. This benefits all concerned, including the customer…. and we should be grateful for their efforts as long as they are within the law.

I would expect that what such UK suppliers are doing is not illegal, as you do not want to get on the wrong side of Customs and Excise …….. but I am no expert, (but I may know a man who is!!)

If it is considered to be tax evasion it will be closed down by the Revenue as soon as they are able.... but it can take time, especially if it is a tax avoidance scheme

 

[ianp5a]

Cannot understand what all you guys are going on about.

It's because they paid way over the odds. And would feel foolish if we all agreed that those stores are honest and the photographer's champions. ☺

Just kidding. I supported my local bricks and mortar camera shop when I bought my last camera at the full price. And boy! Do I feel stupid now I see these prices? Even though the child labourers are useless at wrapping the cameras these days. I'd dock their pay, except they don't get paid. And scrawling "help me" in blood on the inside of the packaging doesn't do them any favours either.

 

[admirable]

Has anyone declared and paid the full VAT amount due to customs, without being asked, and claimed it back from these sellers?

 

[big soft moose]

I havent actually tried it, but I asked several grey importers that question last year , and also whether they were okay with me declaring the true value if a parcel arrives mislabelled and then reclaiming the VAT and import charges - there was a deafening silence in reply.

 

[jerry12953]

I blame the Peoples Front of Judea.

Rubbish. It was the Judean People's Liberation Front.......

 

[OldCarlos]

HMRC will get involved if they suspect anything illegal, but if they aren't told they won't know. Also maybe with the lack of resources/cut backs they just have to prioritise.

The likes of BigNorman & Pro camera shop were closed down & indeed not long ago a couple of other grey suppliers seemed to have problems being able to supply gear (prices also went up for a time when they did resume). Maybe the manufacturers managed to throttle their supply chain too?
I know at least some goods are shipped from Asia via Germany, so maybe that is one way of getting under the radar?

Goods supplied with inaccurate/undervalued declarations, is obviously a sign that things aren't strictly as they should be. Surely folk can see that at least?

This thread from a couple of months ago seemed to show links between `different`? sellers (as explained in post #25) http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/th...t-a-bit-of-a-tangled-web.561857/#post-6509116

 

[Brian G]

The OP posed the question "how do these discounting retailers mange to knock five hundred smackers off the normal price?" and since then we have been offered loads of unsubstantiated (and sometimes incorrect) theories about customs and tax avoidance.

Has it occurred to anyone that the reason for the lower selling prices is simply that the overseas companies can actually buy the items wholesale at much lower prices than the "official" UK importers?

 

[big soft moose]

The OP posed the question "how do these discounting retailers mange to knock five hundred smackers off the normal price?" and since then we have been offered loads of unsubstantiated (and sometimes incorrect) theories about customs and tax avoidance.

Has it occurred to anyone that the reason for the lower selling prices is simply that the overseas companies can actually buy the items wholesale at much lower prices than the "official" UK importers?

no - because they can't

the wholesale price from the manufacturer is much the same , which is why if you add vat and import tax to the price of most grey items they actually come out more expensive than genuine uk stock

 

[Llamaman]

From the discussions on here, and combined with my own research, I think we can categorise grey importers into 3 classes;

1. The Boy Scouts
All taxes paid, all forms filled, teeth nice and clean. They've simply sourced at wholesale cheaper and passed that on to the consumer. Hurrah.
Longevity: Manufacturer will try and close this avenue but they trader is one step ahead and ultimately it's not a big enough market (yet?) to trouble them.

2. The Lovable Rogues
These guys have their accountants and lawyers on speed dial. They've found a clever way of minimising taxes and duties that is legal, but will have HMRC spitting feathers when they find out. Likely to be using treaty shopping to get goods into the EU via a complex route.
Longevity: depends on how quickly the tax authorities can shut down the loopholes.

3. Don't go there. Really.
Appear at the top of price comparison sites, but as anyone who's been to a sewage farm can attest, it's not just cream that floats to the top. The customs declaration is a work of fiction to rival the Hitler Diaries. Website will make bold statements about 'all taxes paid' which contain as much truth as a Tesco value lasagne contains cow.
Trading name will be 'Bargain Camrazzz 4 U' but legal entity will be 'ShelfCo2014' with directors being a nominee brass plate in Macau. Website registered last week.
Longevity: are you kidding? Their head office is a pickup truck with the engine running. At the first hint of trouble, they'll disappear only to return with 'ShelfCo2015' next week.

 

[StewartR]

Lets look at a few commercial reasons why prices could be cheaper.....

You've made some interesting suggestions there, Bill. But I think that, in your apparent eagerness to explain how grey importers might legally be cheaper, you've overlooked an important point.

If you look at lens prices, grey importers are *not* cheaper than regular UK retailers once you account for taxes.

I'm sure it's possible that grey importers are clever with their currency hedging, good at squeezing their supply chains, and so on. But a lot of those perfectly legal tactics are open to non-grey retailers too. And the bottom line is that the *only* way grey importers work out cheaper is by tax evasion or avoidance. (And the suspicion is that it is evasion, because if it were legal avoidance then Amazon would be doing it too.)

At least, that's the situation in the lens market. There's something else going on in the camera market which I don't think we've sussed yet. (But it's not the factors you listed, because the lens market shows that they're either insignificant or ineffective.)

 

[BillN_33]

You've made some interesting suggestions there, Bill. But I think that, in your apparent eagerness to explain how grey importers might legally be cheaper, you've overlooked an important point.

If you look at lens prices, grey importers are *not* cheaper than regular UK retailers once you account for taxes.

I'm sure it's possible that grey importers are clever with their currency hedging, good at squeezing their supply chains, and so on. But a lot of those perfectly legal tactics are open to non-grey retailers too. And the bottom line is that the *only* way grey importers work out cheaper is by tax evasion or avoidance. (And the suspicion is that it is evasion, because if it were legal avoidance then Amazon would be doing it too.)

At least, that's the situation in the lens market. There's something else going on in the camera market which I don't think we've sussed yet. (But it's not the factors you listed, because the lens market shows that they're either insignificant or ineffective.)

I was not eager to explain "how grey importers might be legally cheaper" - I was suggesting how this could be done and has been done in the past

buy a lens in HK at the best price you can get - import it into the UK and pay the VAT etc., you will find that it is cheaper than the main UK retailers. The same can be said for Singapore, certain middle east states and sometimes the US……. UK official prices are not the measure for world prices .. far from it …

I admit that it would appear that some Far East suppliers may not paying the correct VAT, but this under declaration of the true value has been going on for many years as far as electronic and other equipment is concerned….. and the C & E do not seem to want to stop this happening

C & E will be aware of what is happening as will Nikon et al, who would have informed C & E anyway ….. may the grey market is just not big enough for either to be too concerned about … Nikon will know where the supplies are coming from and who they have been supplied to through their serial numbers, the first step that Nikon Europe would take is to ask Nikon Japan about this.

There are ways to save VAT etc., by using various EU "agreements" and this is known by some suppliers - it is a loophole, that may be closed if transactions become significant .. similar schemes have been used in the past for the supply of various items…….. they are legal until they are deemed illegal
I am sure the Revenue are aware of what may be happening on both counts ………. but what action they take is anyones guess.

As far as I am concerned, the purchaser has entered into a normal commercial agreement with a supplier, UK based or not, they have agreed a price which has been paid and the purchaser has not acted illegally in any way……. he does however take a risk

The risk the purchaser takes is that, a). he may not get the goods, but if he pays by CC he is protected, b). if he is charged by C & E the VAT that they consider due he may not be able to reclaim it from the supplier, and c). the secondary risk that any guarantee given may not be honoured……… these should be the only concerns of the consumer ………….. most people on here should know this but maybe others do not ………..

You pays your money and takes your chance, but as far as the two suppliers mentioned on here are concerned no one has suggested that they have had any problems with them…….. or that they are operating illegally ……. it is all supposition by the "internet police"

The differential prices of some camera bodies cannot be just down to VAT ….. If I am correct Panamoz sell the D750 body for £1,178 and Jessops for £1,799, even if you assume that Panamoz are not paying any UK VAT and add 20% to the Panamoz price you get £1,413, a saving of £386 over what Jessops will charge you ……….the grey suppliers must be buying them cheaper .. as I indicated we have always been ripped off in the UK by the major camera suppliers …. so save £620 and buy from Panamoz or others BUT know the risks

 

[Llamaman]

Are you seriously comparing a high-street store price to an internet-only supplier? *facepalm*

I would also point out the other errors in your post but life is too short. I would caution you, however, that you can be held civilly liable for incorrect legal advice you give over the internet.

 

[BillN_33]

Are you seriously comparing a high-street store price to an internet-only supplier? *facepalm*

I would also point out the other errors in your post but life is too short. I would caution you, however, that you can be held civilly liable for incorrect legal advice you give over the internet.

I am not giving anyone legal advice … please indicate where I have?

Jessops are an "internet" supplier … that's were I got the price from, off the internet ………….. same price at WEX = £1.799

http://www.jessops.com/cameras/digital-slr-cameras/nikon?fh_start_index=20&fh_view_size=20

"caution me" all you like - what arrogance - who do you think you are?

Do you even know what legal advice is?

 

[Llamaman]

and the purchaser has not acted illegally in any way…….

Except when he fails to declare and pay the un(der)paid VAT & duty on his mis-declared import.