Oregon shooting

ST4 said:
people will break laws to get guns
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They will only be successful in getting guns if they are being manufactured in high enough numbers, transported all round the country and stocked at retail outlets and sold to permit holders. If there is no market for guns they will not be being manufactured and will not exist to come in to the hands of criminals. People are dying in states that ban guns, and in UK and in Europe from guns that are manufactured for the US legal retail market. That is why it affects us. Thank you NRA!
 
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ST4 said:
And larger amounts of people with guns they can defend themselves. Thats the theory. Plus really unstable people will break laws to get guns etc or kill in other ways.
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But that theory is being proved incorrect on a huge scale on an almost daily basis, in fact it's a complete joke to everyone other than the idiots who propagate it.

I've already mentioned on this thread, a US president surrounded by several heavily armed highly trained close protection officers was shot, if several highly trained people can't protect me, am I really going to be safer if I'm armed? You'd suggest the simple answer to that is Yes, and that's the theory driving gun ownership in the US. But, in order for me to get a gun for protection, everyone else gets one too, and lots of 'everyone' have short tempers or mental illnesses, and that puts me in more danger than if I wasn't allowed a gun. It's really simple.
 
ST4 said:
Per head the number of homicides in the US isn't massively terrible. Many countries are a lot lot worse. Its really not something to get over worked about, IMHO.
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So how many people can I kill and it'll still be OK because someone else killed more?

That's the most ridiculous argument in the world, and really you knew that.
 
Phil V said:
You're right.

But they need the will and the means, and often the means is unavailable, and the will dissipates. That changes when there's a gun handy. It's quite simple to understand for anyone who's ever witnessed bad tempered people becoming violent in a flash, which is why a proliferation of guns means an increase in the number of shootings.

We could all get hold of a gun if we were desperate to, but we're often not desperate to. Make them easy to get access to and encourage a culture round them and you end up with a lot of people having them handy when they lose their temper, or worse, when they suffer from a psychotic illness. That's when the mix gets dangerous.

Like I said, it's obvious to anyone who knows how human beings behave, and doesn't enter the debate with a closed mind.
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Not sure as guns aren't the only ways of killing people. Kenneth Noye is one such high profile case where a killing was done in the heat of the moment minus a gun. Knives, hammers, etc all make great makeshift weapons and many use these instruments in attacks daily within the UK.

Hell, someone was so wound up with a mate of mine in a road rage incident they decided to run him down using their car....

People try to kill people every day using every day devices.
 
boyfalldown said:
It actually seems a fairly easy conclusion to reach on this issue. It seems that every time someone wishes to start a debate on gun crime, and it's causes in the US that debate is strangled before it starts. There was an article the other day about how congress can't even collect data on gun deaths.

Ausalt weapons are another example. When the ban on citizens buying them privately expired n 2004 even the debate on extending that ban is surpressed. I guess that's what's meant by paralysed
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Is that because the debate immediately focuses on banning or restricting the sale and ownership opposed to actually addressing the real issues.

If you want a debate where basically you've made up your mind and want to ban what the opposition in the debate does then there is no chance of moving it forward.

But regardless of that, that is just one side. What about the other side? What are all those European countries doing so well then? I mean luxembourgh is pretty high up as well.
 
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ianp5a said:
And import the slaughter with it? Hilarious.

And that is the sort of support the US gun lobby will have.
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He didn't say that. Out of interest why do you conflate the slaughter with guns? You comes across, like many others on here like they are one and the same thing. Like that is the problem.
 
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ianp5a said:
They will only be successful in getting guns if they are being manufactured in high enough numbers, transported all round the country and stocked at retail outlets and sold to permit holders. If there is no market for guns they will not be being manufactured and will not exist to come in to the hands of criminals. People are dying in states that ban guns, and in UK and in Europe from guns that are manufactured for the US legal retail market. That is why it affects us. Thank you NRA!
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There are no states that ban guns.
Some have heavier controls but no outright bans. Not even Hawaii.
 
ianp5a said:
Add to that all the 'normal' homicides, accidental deaths, and even bigger numbers of injuries and maiming not covered by the death tolls. But if you have convinced yourself that there is no problem then, what can I say?
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Ten violent crimes per 100,000 let's keep a little perspective ;)
 
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ST4 said:
Not sure as guns aren't the only ways of killing people. Kenneth Noye is one such high profile case where a killing was done in the heat of the moment minus a gun. Knives, hammers, etc all make great makeshift weapons and many use these instruments in attacks daily within the UK.

Hell, someone was so wound up with a mate of mine in a road rage incident they decided to run him down using their car....

People try to kill people every day using every day devices.
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My point wasn't that you can only kill people with guns, I'm not a retard.

My point is that if someone loses their temper, and there's not a gun handy, they might lash out with fists, they might even go for a knife, or they might calm down before they do something stupid. But if there's a gun handy, it might be all over before they think again.

Likewise a depressed teenager in this country, without easy access to assault rifles, will probably leave home, take a drug overdose or step out in front of a train. They're not likely to decide to commit suicide by police marksmen whilst taking down a dozen classmates.

Guns don't make people bad, they enable bad people to do horrific things easily.
 
Phil V said:
My point wasn't that you can only kill people with guns, I'm not a retard.

My point is that if someone loses their temper, and there's not a gun handy, they might lash out with fists, they might even go for a knife, or they might calm down before they do something stupid. But if there's a gun handy, it might be all over before they think again.

Likewise a depressed teenager in this country, without easy access to assault rifles, will probably leave home, take a drug overdose or step out in front of a train. They're not likely to decide to commit suicide by police marksmen whilst taking down a dozen classmates.

Guns don't make people bad, they enable bad people to do horrific things easily.
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Fists, knives etc can all kill pretty quickly.

The depressed teenager is a good example, but they can leave with a car and derail a train killing many, run down many people etc.

The problem is the people....
 
ST4 said:
Fists, knives etc can all kill pretty quickly.....
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And they do, but nowhere near as efficiently, as the pro gun people often point out, we are a more violent country than the US, so why less murders?

ST4 said:
The depressed teenager is a good example, but they can leave with a car and derail a train killing many, run down many people etc.
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Can. But don't often, again, it takes imagination, but someone has already written a really good script for mass shootings, and it's easy to follow because the guns are easy to access.
ST4 said:
The problem is the people....
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Of course it's the people. I know a few people who have killed, but I know a lot more who would have if they'd had access to an efficient weapon.
 
dejongj said:
Is that because the debate immediately focuses on banning or restricting the sale and ownership opposed to actually addressing the real issues.

If you want a debate where basically you've made up your mind and want to ban what the opposition in the debate does then there is no chance of moving it forward
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I agree. But the impression from outside is the gun lobby in the US is the side that wishes to stop the debate
 
Phil V said:
And they do, but nowhere near as efficiently, as the pro gun people often point out, we are a more violent country than the US, so why less murders?
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And what about other countries with lax controls. Perhaps the issue is the people and the social issues within the country, rather than the guns.


Phil V said:
Can. But don't often, again, it takes imagination, but someone has already written a really good script for mass shootings, and it's easy to follow because the guns are easy to access.
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There is that.


Phil V said:
Of course it's the people. I know a few people who have killed, but I know a lot more who would have if they'd had access to an efficient weapon.
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I can't say I mix in such circles.
 
ST4 said:
And what about other countries with lax controls. Perhaps the issue is the people and the social issues within the country, rather than the guns..
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I'm no expert on the social issues in any foreign land, but I don't presume that the US is so different to Western Europe.

ST4 said:
I can't say I mix in such circles.
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I've witnessed a lot of civil unrest, we've discussed it in the past, you think lightly of it because it didn't affect you personally, but those of us who lived through it see it differently ;)
 
ST4 said:
Or knives, frying pans, cars, hammers, alcohol, drugs etc...
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Exactly! If the usefulness of those things was outweighed by their lethality, people would want their use controlled too.

You know, I think you're getting the hang of this. :D
 
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andy700 said:
I think that I prefer to live in the UK, where we have sensible controls on firearms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Per 100, 000 of the population.

UK - 0.26 of which homicides 0.05

US - 10.64 of which homicides 3.55

Whichever way you look at it, death by gun is forty times higher in the US than the UK.
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Yes, and what is the total homicide rates in each country. Forget the devices used what's the homocide rate here, and what is it there.
 
ZoneV said:
Keep guns, ban mental illness?
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Sort of, let treat mental illness and provide it with its care and attention that the people require.
 
dejongj said:
Sort of, let treat mental illness and provide it with its care and attention that the people require.
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Yes! Let's keep all the guns on one side until we're well enough to play with them.

I like it!
 
Phil V said:
So how many people can I kill and it'll still be OK because someone else killed more?

That's the most ridiculous argument in the world, and really you knew that.
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It was a response to a statement that it is much worse in one area. Naturally it isn't a competition where the highest number wins eternal glory. I'm convinced that you know that as well. Likewise you also know that the argument against banning is not at all that it is ok because there are other that kill more. Nobody is suggesting that at all, and I think to suggest that is rather disingenuous. Killing people is not ok, but the focus is so much on the weapons opposed to on the people who do this. As the thread has linked to earlier, there are sufficient people who think this is ok and normal. There are people actively encouraging other people to perform these acts. I find it odd that the focus is not on them, and those who perform these acts. Nope instead people get so bogged down on the weapons they used....To me, that is the ridiculous argument and not the issue.
 
andy700 said:
I think that I prefer to live in the UK, where we have sensible controls on firearms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Per 100, 000 of the population.

UK - 0.26 of which homicides 0.05

US - 10.64 of which homicides 3.55

Whichever way you look at it, death by gun is forty times higher in the US than the UK.
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I love this, that is the same link I provided earlier, yet now used to proof something else. I seriously suggest you look at how these figures are established opposed to just quoting them as gospel ;) Hint, the problem is in the collection of the data...
 
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ST4 said:
Yes, and what are the total homicide rates in each country. Forget the devices used what's the homicide rate here, and what is it there.
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You are a lazy tyke at times aren't you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

UK - 1 per 100,000

US - 4.7 per 100,000

Therefore you are nearly five times more likely to be murdered in the US than the UK.

There are over 14,000 homicides in the US each year, so maybe we should compare that figure to the amount of US soldiers killed in Afghanistan since 2001 and Iraq since 2003

Afghanistan - 1742

Iraq - 3527
 
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boyfalldown said:
I agree. But the impression from outside is the gun lobby in the US is the side that wishes to stop the debate
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And I agree with that, which is because the debate focusses on banning and stricter controls...

Perhaps the gun lobby can make the first Adult step and also supports mental health issues to take away the ammunition from the anti-gun lobby....And why is the anti-gun lobby an anti-gun lobby? What aren't they a stop the violence or improve mental health lobby? Why don't they turn it into something positive?
 
pfft. Am I qualified?

How about I watched a lot of Ainsley Harriot back in the day. Every. Single. Week.

Yup. No-one messes with my mushroom omlette, I can tell you. ;)
 
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Phil V said:
So how many people can I kill and it'll still be OK because someone else killed more?

That's the most ridiculous argument in the world, and really you knew that.
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No, its about rates of homicide over a large populous. America has en mass gun ownership but you are far more likely to be killed in many other countries other than the USA. Its not that dangerous a place...really...it isn't. That's my point.
 
ST4 said:
Ok. Point taken. But it's still not terribly high. What's the homocide rate for Switzerland?
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Gun homicide in Switzerland is very low.
Gun suicides have halved in the 20 years since the rules regarding the storage of ammunition separately were changed.
Look it up.
It's easy.
 
viv1969 said:
Gun homicide in Switzerland is very low.
Gun suicides have halved in the 20 years since the rules regarding the storage of ammunition separately were changed.
Look it up.
It's easy.
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Suicides are a separate issue. Gun suicides have dropped, but there is a multitude of ways to top yourself. Overall has suicide dropped in Switzerland?

As gun homicide is low in Switzerland you can see that guns need not be a problem.
 
ST4 said:
Suicides are a separate issue. Gun suicides have dropped, but there is a multitude of ways to top yourself. Overall has suicide dropped in Switzerland?

As gun homicide is low in Switzerland you can see that guns need not be a problem.
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I've not said guns are a problem have I?
You asked a question.
I merely suggested looking something up yourself.
 
Guns don't kill people, rappers do.

Guns don't kill people, frying pans do.

"Guns might kill people, but so do frying pans."

That's the new pro-gun lobby campaign poster right there.

:D
 
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