Oregon shooting

andy700 said:
They are totally sick, and the fact that it is so easy to get guns means that they get to act out their fantasies for real.
The US is a totally screwed up country.
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Having lived there I have to say no, it's not.
Your average American is as lovely a friend/neighbour/colleague as you could want.
p***es me off when they're tarred with a big brush.
 
ZoneV said:
I think you misunderstood my use of the word "currently". It does not mean "new", it means "at the present moment".

Also, while I agree that parents should keep a close eye on their children's online activities, I think it's easier said than done and besides, it's often young adults who live on their own who engage in this kind of thing.
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Any half intelligent child (and often the shooters are very intelligent) would use some form of private browsing and know how to bypass filters.
 
andy700 said:
They are totally sick, and the fact that it is so easy to get guns means that they get to act out their fantasies for real.
The US is a totally screwed up country.
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Have you been? I have been there a number of times and it's an amazing country. In the last 10 years have done Orlando, Hawaii, Vegas and South Carolina. Before had been to Detroit and Arizona. Like any country, some great people and some not so nice.

It's far less screwed up than many.
 
cambsno said:
Any half intelligent child (and often the shooters are very intelligent) would use some form of private browsing and know how to bypass filters.
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Bring it on :)
 
OldCarlos said:
Yes, originally from Lancashire. The local Preston news has even printed the G/fathers name & general location. :mad:
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That was very thoughtful :rolleyes:
 
The USA has an established gun culture that is supported by the majority of the population.
These mass school and other shootings have been going on for years.
The belief is that it is nothing to do with the gun culture or the freedom to possess fire arms.

The arguements seem to be, that there are not enough arms in the places where shootings happen, for defence, or that if arms had not been available then some other weapon would be used in their place.

Very few such mass killings do take place in other countries, where they do, the perpetrators also had access to firearms.

The more obvious mass killing device, the bomb, is only rarely used in a non terrorist situation.
Perhaps a bomb is not sufficiently personal or is more difficult to obtain and use, for these deranged killers.

It seems the number of deaths is insufficient to balance the emotional attachement Americans have for their guns.
Or as in most of Europe, they would have been long ago greatly restricted and controlled.
The occasional accidental, revenge or mass killing, seems to be regarded as more acceptable than greater restriction on peoples "passtime pleasure"

These killings will undoubtedly continue.
Of course when it comes to people power the dead don't have votes.
 
viv1969 said:
Having lived there I have to say no, it's not.
Your average American is as lovely a friend/neighbour/colleague as you could want.
p***es me off when they're tarred with a big brush.
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Yes Ruth, I have been there as well, and I have met and socialised with Americans in Europe and the US.
The really sad thing is, and the thing which makes me make comment like I have done, is that the Americans who I like are probably under 40% representative of the whole.
I think that the "Alpha male", most aggressive in society will always make their voice heard more than the sensible people, which is a cying shame for humanity.
 
cambsno said:
Have you been? I have been there a number of times and it's an amazing country. In the last 10 years have done Orlando, Hawaii, Vegas and South Carolina. Before had been to Detroit and Arizona. Like any country, some great people and some not so nice.

It's far less screwed up than many.
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Yes I have been, and when some of us "Brits" asked them about the gun laws in 2007, we were told by a couple of people from the "inner" states that they allowed people to carry guns, because it was the fault of the English - US revolution and all that?????
By that piece of astounding logic, we in the UK should all be able to carry guns because of - the Romans - what did they ever do for us?

Some great people - probably 200 million, that leaves the other 120 million fruitbat whackos.
 
andy700 said:
Yes Ruth, I have been there as well, and I have met and socialised with Americans in Europe and the US.
The really sad thing is, and the thing which makes me make comment like I have done, is that the Americans who I like are probably under 40% representative of the whole.
I think that the "Alpha male", most aggressive in society will always make their voice heard more than the sensible people, which is a cying shame for humanity.
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By saying you've been....on holiday or longer term?
 
andy700 said:
Yes I have been, and when some of us "Brits" asked them about the gun laws in 2007, we were told by a couple of people from the "inner" states that they allowed people to carry guns, because it was the fault of the English - US revolution and all that?????
By that piece of astounding logic, we in the UK should all be able to carry guns because of - the Romans - what did they ever do for us?

Some great people - probably 200 million, that leaves the other 120 million fruitbat whackos.
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???? They were spot on and factually correct. It was because of the British and what they, did that it was written in their constitution. As such it became part of their culture. If because of what the romans did it was written in our constitution then yes we should as well. Naturally there are two problems with that ;)

Don't underestimate the impact it has to change a constitution.
 
andy700 said:
Yes Ruth, I have been there as well, and I have met and socialised with Americans in Europe and the US.
The really sad thing is, and the thing which makes me make comment like I have done, is that the Americans who I like are probably under 40% representative of the whole.
I think that the "Alpha male", most aggressive in society will always make their voice heard more than the sensible people, which is a cying shame for humanity.
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LOL So you think that Alpha Male's are aggressive and not sensible... Oh dear oh dear oh dear, I think you've only had experience with wannabe Alpha Male's, with the failures, as with what you highlight as key characteristics you definitely don't make it. But I have some sympathy for that assessment, Alpha Male's can be quite intimidating at time, and that could be interpreted incorrectly by those who are clearly not. Regardless of all that, a good functioning society requires all sorts.
 
dejongj said:
???? They were spot on and factually correct. It was because of the British and what they, did that it was written in their constitution. As such it became part of their culture. If because of what the romans did it was written in our constitution then yes we should as well. Naturally there are two problems with that ;)

Don't underestimate the impact it has to change a constitution.
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Sort of. Many Americans - including jurists - maintain that the 2nd Amendment (RKBA) didn't create or grant a right. It recognised one that already existed, which was probably based on the English Bill of Rights, 1689, and was codified in the aftermath of the Revolution. There were no restrictions on firearms ownership, for all practical purposes, in the UK until 1920. The position was much the same as it is now in the US.

Why are people in the UK getting so hot under the collar about what happens in a foreign country, thousands of miles away? It's up to the US to address this issue, if they want to, not the Brits who were disarmed by their own government nearly a hundred years ago.
 
MartynK said:
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Why are people in the UK getting so hot under the collar about what happens in a foreign country, thousands of miles away? It's up to the US to address this issue, if they want to, not the Brits who were disarmed by their own government nearly a hundred years ago.
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Some of us... Because we like to discuss what's in the news, others because they genuinely care about other people (although that is coloured by mostly caring about other people we heard about on the news).

A more pertinent point might be... if you don't care about it why does it matter to you that other people do?
 
Why is it that whenever there is a shooting in Americaland the good people of the internet want to change their laws and ban or restrict gun ownership?

When a number of planes were hijacked and crashed into buildings in Americaland no-one wanted to ban planes they just wanted to go and blow up other countries (or parts of them at least)
 
cowboy said:
Why is it that whenever there is a shooting in Americaland the good people of the internet want to change their laws and ban or restrict gun ownership?

When a number of planes were hijacked and crashed into buildings in Americaland no-one wanted to ban planes they just wanted to go and blow up other countries (or parts of them at least)
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Think the good people of the internet believe those actions would reduce futher similar incidents. Less guns = less incidents & knock off a few bods and less terrorism
 
It's a natural response to think about saving lives, especially in the US where the deaths are so pointless and so many, at over 30,000 every year.

It's the suggestions to do "nothing at all" about it is the unnatural bit.
 
cowboy said:
Why is it that whenever there is a shooting in Americaland the good people of the internet want to change their laws and ban or restrict gun ownership?

When a number of planes were hijacked and crashed into buildings in Americaland no-one wanted to ban planes they just wanted to go and blow up other countries (or parts of them at least)
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Americaland?
Does your mum know you're using the computer?

No..
No one cried out to ban 'planes, because that would simply be ridiculous. But what did happen is that security become so tight than now the run up to the flight is often longer than the flight itself.
 
Considering 911 style hijacks have not happened since, shows an aircraft ban would not have been necessary. But since 911 more than half a million people have been killed by guns in the US. Is that OK?

It's a tough number to reach. So these mass shootings are necessary to keep the numbers up. The current rate of "one a day" helps. With over 300 mass shootings this year so far. And 500 mass shootings in 2014. It's kind of weird if you think they are doing the right thing and shouldn't change anything.
 
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ianp5a said:
It's a natural response to think about saving lives, especially in the US where the deaths are so pointless and so many, at over 30,000 every year.

It's the suggestions to do "nothing at all" about it is the unnatural bit.
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Its a very large country, is 30k deaths relating to gun crime really that high given its massive population. IIRC I have no huge issue with America's gun ownership, their country, their rules not our business.
 
cowboy said:
Why is it that whenever there is a shooting in Americaland the good people of the internet want to change their laws and ban or restrict gun ownership?

When a number of planes were hijacked and crashed into buildings in Americaland no-one wanted to ban planes they just wanted to go and blow up other countries (or parts of them at least)
Click to expand...

ianp5a said:
It's a natural response to think about saving lives, especially in the US where the deaths are so pointless and so many, at over 30,000 every year.

It's the suggestions to do "nothing at all" about it is the unnatural bit.
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To me a natural response would be to look at the root cause. To look at how mental health is being address. To improve social care and health service. Now that would reduce these kind of crimes and situations. Banning weapons is not saving lives, it is not addressing the actual issue.
 
I never mentioned banning weapons.

Including the things you mentioned, a lot of steps need to be taken first. Doing nothing about it will be perpetuate the slaughter.
 
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ST4 said:
Its a very large country, is 30k deaths relating to gun crime really that high given its massive population. IIRC I have no huge issue with America's gun ownership, their country, their rules not our business.
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Thing is that absolutes don't work, the main statistic being used is a comparison by 100,000 people. That produces league tables like these;


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

By comparison to European countries the USA is still about three times as high if you take that as gospel.

However the problem when comparing statistics is that they are all measured very differently, and it is rather difficult to break out the actual difference where it is purely related to gun crime. And when you do, when you attempt to take away other violent crimes from that cohort you are absolutely right, the actual figures aren't really that far apart. But until such time that there is a global standardised way to measure and report this, both pro and con with use the situation to their advantage and produce a lot of disinformation.
 
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Even if there are some gun deaths in European countries, those countries are willing to do something about it. The US seems to be paralysed.
 
ianp5a said:
Even if there are some gun deaths in European countries, those countries are willing to do something about it. The US seems to be paralysed.
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Can you expand as to how you arrive at that conclusion?
 
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ST4 said:
Guns don't kill people, people do. Without guns they will just kill people in different ways
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And lets not forget they've done so since well, ever. Likewise with animal. It is in our genes. No excuse to no do something about it, but lets focus on the real cause instead of some feel good plaster and pat ourselves on the back.

Ultimately this feeling of need to protect did start with the brutality of the British empire, it is so hypocritical see all this anti-behaviour now imo and not just on this topic.
 
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dejongj said:
Can you expand as to how you arrive at that conclusion?
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It actually seems a fairly easy conclusion to reach on this issue. It seems that every time someone wishes to start a debate on gun crime, and it's causes in the US that debate is strangled before it starts. There was an article the other day about how congress can't even collect data on gun deaths.

Ausalt weapons are another example. When the ban on citizens buying them privately expired n 2004 even the debate on extending that ban is surpressed. I guess that's what's meant by paralysed
 
dejongj said:
And lets not forget they've done so since well, ever. Likewise with animal. It is in our genes. No excuse to no do something about it, but lets focus on the real cause instead of some feel good plaster and pat ourselves on the back.

Ultimately this feeling of need to protect did start with the brutality of the British empire, it is so hypocritical see all this anti-behaviour now imo and not just on this topic.
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The lone shooters are all nutters, but with such a large population there will be a fair number of nutters. I fully expect without guns they'd use their car as a weapon or make explosives out of house hold goods.

Culturally guns are part of American life. No-one makes anyone here go there. I don't see personally why people get so upset about what goes on in other peoples countries, it hardly effects us. Its an issue for the American people alone to work out.
 
And import the slaughter with it? Hilarious.

And that is the sort of support the US gun lobby will have.
 
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