Oregon shooting

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

I would rather be in no confrontation at all

None of these comments hold true for a nutter wanting to go into a school and find out who are Christians to shoot them. Sorry but the weapons are immaterial for someone whose mind is so distorted. Against a sane mind I fully agree that I would rather be unarmed when facing a gun man as the situation is unlikely to escalate. And if I was armed I likely wouldn't draw my weapon. However in situations like these there is no sense, it will escalate with only one outcome. I would rather be armed.

But they don't happen in the UK because, a nutter can't just walk into a shop and buy a gun then go on a killing spree. They might want to try it using another weapon, but someone is a lot easier to overpower if they're using a knife or whatever, and it requires a lot more effort for them to kill someone. The firearm might not be the cause of the situation, as that person is clearly unstable enough to want to go on a killing spree in the first place, but the easy access to firearms is what enables them.

I thought Obama's speech was quite moving, he's clearly saddened by the events.

 

[andya700]

This is the 35th school / college shooting incident in the US this year alone.
It beggars belief.

And the 994th mass gun attack (more than four people killed) in three years.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/01/obama-oregon-college-shooting-routine

Obama clearly does want things to change, and there are probably tens of millions of people in the US who want things to change, but unless the gun lobby, Republicans, corporate influences change their stance, then there is little or no chance of anything changing.
More US citizens killed each year in the US, than by terrorists in the last ten years.
The US is also exporting guns and arms all around the World - currently used by Saudi Arabia to bomb and kill over 3000 people in Yemen, and used by ISIL in Syria, Iraq and Libya, where the guns supplied to "rebels" are now being used by radical Islamic fighters to kill - US.

 

[dejongj]

But they don't happen in the UK because, a nutter can't just walk into a shop and buy a gun then go on a killing spree. They might want to try it using another weapon, but someone is a lot easier to overpower if they're using a knife or whatever, and it requires a lot more effort for them to kill someone. The firearm might not be the cause of the situation, as that person is clearly unstable enough to want to go on a killing spree in the first place, but the easy access to firearms is what enables them.

I thought Obama's speech was quite moving, he's clearly saddened by the events.

There is always a way, and no need for shops with the 'dark net'. If people want to do this, then they'll find a way.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

There is always a way, and no need for shops with the 'dark net'. If people want to do this, then they'll find a way.

Most of the people who do this kind of the thing in the UK, are part of organised criminal activity though aren't they?

We're talking about nutjobs, who generally, don't have any more of a plan than "buy a gun in a shop, shoot some people".

 

[ZoneV]

There is always a way, and no need for shops with the 'dark net'. If people want to do this, then they'll find a way.

The only problem I have with this logic is that the same applies to ricin.

 

[fracster]

I thought Obama's speech was quite moving, he's clearly saddened by the events.

I think he is getting increasingly frustrated with the gun happy crew as well.

But getting the changes needed will be a hell of a thing to accomplish, I very much doubt he can succeed. On that point, I hope I am wrong.

 

[arclight]

They never will.

Correct - it would appear that Americans would rather have a country where schools have students gunned down on a regular basis than live with it being difficult to obtain guns.
I doubt if there is any level of killing that can change that attitude.

 

[Garry Edwards]

Yet oddly when we tightened gun laws in the UK Following a massacre, it worked, when they changed the laws in Australia following a massacre - it worked. To suggest that it's hideously complicated is a joke.

It's simple, if it's easy to get hold of a gun, it's too easy for a nutcase to get hold of a gun. If you want to make it difficult for a nutcase to get hold of a gun, you put controls in place, I generally dismiss things because they're obvious... But FFS.

Which massacre was this then?
I know about 3...
Michael Ryan, he was allowed to have guns despite all the evidence that he was unfit, the police ignored clear warnings. After his killing spree, fully automatic weapons became almost impossible to get and shotguns became controlled for the first time, neither of which made a scrap of difference to the level of gun crime.

Thomas Hamilton, known to the police, suspected paedaphile, serious questions re his mental health and no good reason for possessing handguns anyay but they ignored all the evidence. After that, handguns were effectively banned and the level of gun crime went UP.

Derrick Bird, known to the police, several criminal convictions, intelligence re sexual offences and an assault, all ignored by police. No real changes to gun restrictions resulting from this.

We've had control of firearms in this country since about 1922 and control of shotguns since 1986.
All statistics re gun crime show that extra restrictions make no difference at all, or that the difference is negative. But, the statistics are themselves unreliable for two reasons:
1. The level of gun crime is so low that the statistics are unreliable
2. The statistics themselves are unreliable because different police farces collect them in different ways, and because when a witness reports the use or existence of a gun that isn't found, it still goes down as a gun crime.

FWIW, personally I feel that the gun situation in the US is ridiculous and that there needs to be effective control, licensing, training and security - but I'm inclined to agree that even if this happened, the level of gun crime in the USA would still be very high because of reasons that are not directly related to the availabilty of guns

 

[dejongj]

Most of the people who do this kind of the thing in the UK, are part of organised criminal activity though aren't they?

We're talking about nutjobs, who generally, don't have any more of a plan than "buy a gun in a shop, shoot some people".

Are you sure they have that little of a plan? I wouldn't be so sure, there will be months/years of meticulous planning. And no it is not just organised criminal activity at all. On the contrary, it will be the bloke down your street, or the housewife opposite you.

The only problem I have with this logic is that the same applies to ricin.

It does. But think about it, being untrained in nbc versus untrained in guns. Which do you think is a lot safer for the person to handle? I'm a chemist by education, and wouldn't feel like handling ricin without some serious kit and protection around me.

 

[fracster]

iF THE PRESIDENT DOES GET GUN LAWS CHANGED, AND IT IS A BIG IF, IT COULD WELL TAKE DECADES TO ALLEVIATE THE PROBLEM SIMPLY DUE TO THE MASSIVE AMOUNT OF FIREARMS ALREADY OUT THERE.................................Excuse caps lock.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Are you sure they have that little of a plan? I wouldn't be so sure, there will be months/years of meticulous planning. And no it is not just organised criminal activity at all. On the contrary, it will be the bloke down your street, or the housewife opposite you.

That explains all the mass shootings we get in this country then.

 

[ZoneV]

Which do you think is a lot safer for the person to handle? I'm a chemist by education, and wouldn't feel like handling ricin without some serious kit and protection around me.

Safety doesn't come into it. You said there's no point banning guns because if someone wants one they can just get one from the dark web. I said the same applies to ricin.

What you or I (or anyone except the purchaser) feel comfortable handling is irrelevant to the argument.

 

[andya700]

Are you sure they have that little of a plan? I wouldn't be so sure, there will be months/years of meticulous planning. Or a a spur of the moment decision based on someone's current mental state And no it is not just organised criminal activity at all. On the contrary, it will be the bloke down your street, or the housewife opposite you Or some completely random person.

I reckon most gun sprees happen with very little real planinng, less than a month or even week in advance. They may be a reaction to someone just feeling bitter - work, education, society.
There is one thing which brings nearly all these events together, and it is the ready availability of large caliibre, semi automatic/assault weapons, and the fact that nearly all the "shooters" have received instruction in their use.
It is US society PLUS their idiotic gun laws which causes these massacres.
The US society which worships guns, which indoctrinates youngsters in their use, so that guns become as "normal" as mobile phones

 

[fracster]

I reckon most gun sprees happen with very little real planinng, less than a month or even week in advance. They may be a reaction to someone just feeling bitter - work, education, society.
There is one thing which brings nearly all these events together, and it is the ready availability of large caliibre, semi automatic/assault weapons, and the fact that nearly all the "shooters" have received instruction in their use.
It is US society PLUS their idiotic gun laws which causes these massacres.
The US society which worships guns, which indoctrinates youngsters in their use, so that guns become as "normal" as mobile phones

That sums the problem up to perfection, in my opinion.

 

[dejongj]

That explains all the mass shootings we get in this country then.

No it doesn't at all, hence I question why they here is that attitude or culture outthere.

Safety doesn't come into it. You said there's no point banning guns because if someone wants one they can just get one from the dark web. I said the same applies to ricin.

What you or I (or anyone except the purchaser) feel comfortable handling is irrelevant to the argument.

Ofcourse it is relevant. A cowardly little s*** doesn't want to kill themselves. This british born chap wanted to kill Christians. I was merely providing a logical explanation why guns and not ricin. Ricin is much more hazardous and difficult to handle.

Further more I did not say there is no point banning because they can get them from the dark net. I said that if someone want to act out something like this tragedy they will find a way. Banning gunshops is not going to resolve the root cause to the violence.

 

[ZoneV]

Ofcourse it is relevant. A cowardly little s*** doesn't want to kill themselves. This british born chap wanted to kill Christians. I was merely providing a logical explanation why guns and not ricin. Ricin is much more hazardous and difficult to handle.

I imagine a vial of ricin is no more hazardous to handle than a vial of eye drops. They don't have to handle the actual material to incorporate it into a bomb or other device.

Further more I did not say there is no point banning because they can get them from the dark net. I said that if someone want to act out something like this tragedy they will find a way. Banning gunshops is not going to resolve the root cause to the violence.

But surely if they aren't as easily available, they're less likely to be used? Like ricin?

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

No it doesn't at all, hence I question why they here is that attitude or culture outthere.

I think it's both though. Attitude wise, the normalisation of gun usage, and how readily available they are and easy to get. I imagine if the gun controls here were as lax as they are in the US, we'd see a lot higher gun crime. Not as high as the US, because of the difference in attitudes, but it's certainly going to be a contributing factor.

 

[Mr Bump]

You can buy them in their equivalent to Asda next to the cabbages (vegetables not people)

 

[cambsno]

I would rather be in no confrontation at all

None of these comments hold true for a nutter wanting to go into a school and find out who are Christians to shoot them. Sorry but the weapons are immaterial for someone whose mind is so distorted. Against a sane mind I fully agree that I would rather be unarmed when facing a gun man as the situation is unlikely to escalate. And if I was armed I likely wouldn't draw my weapon. However in situations like these there is no sense, it will escalate with only one outcome. I would rather be armed.

Agree. If you look at the people committing these crimes they normally not all there so while guns play an obvious part so do the people behind the trigger.

Yes, a ban on guns would help but it will take many many years to get the culture change, and those oddballs will simply use other methods so to assume that gun laws would stop this are wishful thinking.

Don't get the anti USA feeling around this though. As I have pointed out, many countries far worse than the USA for gun deaths including South Africa which is a civilised country too.

Remember that switzerland has a lot of gun ownership but little crime so maybe it's the people more than the guns???

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Agree. If you look at the people committing these crimes they normally not all there so while guns play an obvious part so do the people behind the trigger.

Yes, a ban on guns would help but it will take many many years to get the culture change, and those oddballs will simply use other methods so to assume that gun laws would stop this are wishful thinking.

Don't get the anti USA feeling around this though. As I have pointed out, many countries far worse than the USA for gun deaths including South Africa which is a civilised country too.

Remember that switzerland has a lot of gun ownership but little crime so maybe it's the people more than the guns???

Possibly because although gun ownership in Switzerland is high, there's a lot of restrictions on ammunition and you're not allowed to store it at home.

 

[boyfalldown]

Was there a specific reason why you were shot at?

Have you met JP?

 

[ZoneV]

I don't get the "they don't shoot each other in Switzerland so don't ban guns in America" argument.

If your kid kept shooting at traffic with a catapult, would you let him keep it just because your neighbour's kid didn't misbehave with his catapult?

Edit: Likewise, I equally don't get the "There are even more shootings in South Africa so don't ban guns in America" argument.

"Keep shooting those cars with your catapult, son. Charlie next door shoots more than you do."

 

[viv1969]

Possibly because although gun ownership in Switzerland is high, there's a lot of restrictions on ammunition and you're not allowed to store it at home.

In Switzerland? I think you'll find you are so long as it's kept separate.

 

[Garry Edwards]

Possibly because although gun ownership in Switzerland is high, there's a lot of restrictions on ammunition and you're not allowed to store it at home.

Not true, they do keep them at home, and so-called restrictions on ammo have no real world effect. Their rules are similar to ours, guns are kept at home, ammo is kept at home, they are just locked up separately from each other.

For example, I have several rifles of various calibres. With one calibre, I am allowed to buy 500 and hold 600 rounds, on another it's 100 and 150 and on another it's 100 and 120. The reason that I'm allowed to have these rifles and ammo (apart from the fact that I have a genuine need for them ([good reason]) is that I've been thoroughly vetted, and trained. I also have a few shotguns and there are no practical restrictions on the ammount of shotgun ammo that I can buy, and I normally buy 2-3,000 at a time, that's because I get through more than 10,000 a year. Even if I decided to go on a shooting spree with the amount of ammo I'm legally allowed to have, it would be more than enough to start a small war - and if I was that way inclined, I could go to a shop every day and buy more, and stockpile it. That would be illegal, but presumably if I wanted to kill people then I wouldn't worry about that.

Incidentally, due apparently to the American fear that their president will in fact introduce restrictions, it is now virtually impossible to get Amercian ammo in this country - their manufacturers can't make it fast enough because the American nutters are hoarding vast quantities of it ;(

My personal take on this is that although there should be effective gun controls in the USA, the real problem is not the number of guns or the amount of ammo they have, it's the love affair that so many Americans seem to have with their guns, the lack of safety training, the lack of safe storage requirements (which often leads to several handguns, loaded and in condition zero, hidden in every room just in case of a home invasion) which means that even little children kill themselves and other people, sometimes accidentally, sometimes not.

 

[Cobra]

I have a link to an archive of the thread. I want to post it so everyone can see the crazyness, but unsure whether I should. Advice please?

By all means link it but add a warning as to its content.

 

[cambsno]

I don't get the "they don't shoot each other in Switzerland so don't ban guns in America" argument.

If your kid kept shooting at traffic with a catapult, would you let him keep it just because your neighbour's kid didn't misbehave with his catapult?

Edit: Likewise, I equally don't get the "There are even more shootings in South Africa so don't ban guns in America" argument.

"Keep shooting those cars with your catapult, son. Charlie next door shoots more than you do."

I am not saying that, but people seem to think banning guns will stop this, it won't, and I find the obsession with having a pop at America a bit strange.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

In Switzerland? I think you'll find you are so long as it's kept separate.

Not true, they do keep them at home, and so-called restrictions on ammo have no real world effect. Their rules are similar to ours, guns are kept at home, ammo is kept at home, they are just locked up separately from each other.

For example, I have several rifles of various calibres. With one calibre, I am allowed to buy 500 and hold 600 rounds, on another it's 100 and 150 and on another it's 100 and 120. The reason that I'm allowed to have these rifles and ammo (apart from the fact that I have a genuine need for them ([good reason]) is that I've been thoroughly vetted, and trained. I also have a few shotguns and there are no practical restrictions on the ammount of shotgun ammo that I can buy, and I normally buy 2-3,000 at a time, that's because I get through more than 10,000 a year. Even if I decided to go on a shooting spree with the amount of ammo I'm legally allowed to have, it would be more than enough to start a small war - and if I was that way inclined, I could go to a shop every day and buy more, and stockpile it. That would be illegal, but presumably if I wanted to kill people then I wouldn't worry about that.

Incidentally, due apparently to the American fear that their president will in fact introduce restrictions, it is now virtually impossible to get Amercian ammo in this country - their manufacturers can't make it fast enough because the American nutters are hoarding vast quantities of it ;(

My personal take on this is that although there should be effective gun controls in the USA, the real problem is not the number of guns or the amount of ammo they have, it's the love affair that so many Americans seem to have with their guns, the lack of safety training, the lack of safe storage requirements (which often leads to several handguns, loaded and in condition zero, hidden in every room just in case of a home invasion) which means that even little children kill themselves and other people, sometimes accidentally, sometimes not.

Fair enough, I'd just read somewhere that only a certain number of people could keep ammo at home in switzerland, around 2000 people. But, there's a lot of crap on the internet, so that was quite possibly wrong.

 

[ZoneV]

By all means link it but add a warning as to its content.

OK, thanks Chris.

Here is a link to the archived thread, allegedly created by the shooter on the night before the shooting, where other posters advise and encourage him and celebrate when news of the shootings first breaks.

WARNING: NSFW, and generally very unpleasant.

https://archive.is/KJ1LD

 

[Cobra]

OK, thanks Chris.

Here is a link to the archived thread, allegedly created by the shooter on the night before the shooting, where other posters advise and encourage him and celebrate when news of the shootings first breaks.

WARNING: NSFW, and generally very unpleasant.

https://archive.is/KJ1LD

I only scanned through it, but its pretty obvious there are some very very sick people about

 

[ZoneV]

I only scanned through it, but its pretty obvious there are some very very sick people about

Yes, the twisted disaffected. Instead of screaming and punching holes in their bedroom door, they now get together on message boards and share their "beta uprising" (they see "alphas"/"normies" - ordinary folk - as the cause of their "suffering") fantasies.

 

[Cobra]

Yes, the twisted disaffected. Instead of screaming and punching holes in their bedroom door, they now get together on message boards and share their "beta uprising" (they see "alphas"/"normies" - ordinary folk - as the cause of their "suffering") fantasies.

The abillity these days to "post" anything across the world in seconds, certainly doesn't help these situations either.
Not that you can blame the internet for the worlds ills, people have to take resposibillty for their own actions.

I've just had an email from a mate in the States, on that subject, apparently the shooter was a "Mixed race Brit"

 

[ZoneV]

The abillity these days to "post" anything across the world in seconds, certainly doesn't help these situations either.
Not that you can blame the internet for the worlds ills, people have to take resposibillty for their own actions.

I've just had an email from a mate in the States, on that subject, apparently the shooter was a "Mixed race Brit"

I think the US is reaching a tipping point and the authorities will begin focussing more intensely on " those" message boards where this kind of "chat" is commonplace. Those places are currently like the Wild West of old, where anything goes, and there's no doubt in my opinion that they have a hand in these events (along with the availability of guns, of course).

Of course the "free speech" advocates will fight any moves to restrict their freedom (just like the pro gun campaigners), but their arguments get hollower as each mass-shooting unfolds.

I'd heard the shooter was born in the UK and moved to the US as a child, but I don't know any more about him.

 

[dejongj]

OK, thanks Chris.

Here is a link to the archived thread, allegedly created by the shooter on the night before the shooting, where other posters advise and encourage him and celebrate when news of the shootings first breaks.

WARNING: NSFW, and generally very unpleasant.

https://archive.is/KJ1LD

I only scanned through it, but its pretty obvious there are some very very sick people about

Indeed, so what were people saying before jumping on me that this is not premeditated, that this is just an impulse due to lacks gun controls....I mean come on. Really?

I think the US is reaching a tipping point and the authorities will begin focussing more intensely on " those" message boards where this kind of "chat" is commonplace. Those places are currently like the Wild West of old, where anything goes, and there's no doubt in my opinion that they have a hand in these events (along with the availability of guns, of course).

Of course the "free speech" advocates will fight any moves to restrict their freedom (just like the pro gun campaigners), but their arguments get hollower as each mass-shooting unfolds.

I'd heard the shooter was born in the UK and moved to the US as a child, but I don't know any more about him.

Those messageboards aren't anything new or current. They've been in existence for a very very long time, in all sorts of shapes and forms. They existed digitally already in the days of dial-up boards where there was no internet with TCP/IP for easy connectivity. They existed before that in magazine and newbrief format.

If anything it has made it a lot easier to pickup and single out these kind of movements, although you can also see a trend of oldfashioned cryptography popping up again when they wise up to the fact of how easy it is to eavesdrop.

Just question yourself, when was the last time you checked the browsing history, chat logs, phone records, social media groups of your children? The very hardcore porn is the least of peoples concerns. I think the problem is that there is a generation of children who are cleverer and better clued up on information and communication technology. To such an extend that traditional parenting skills just isn't enough for a large number.

Another trend besides the darknet and obscure groups is the communication forums in online gaming environments.

 

[SFTPhotography]

Why?

Banning guns will not stop this... and as was discussed in another thread, there are many more countries where deaths by gun are far more common. Cant remember the exact stats but South Africa is 10 times worse! Ok, most of the countries worse than the USA are less developed, but these sort of things will happen in those countries but they just don't get reported as widely.

^^^
This

 

[ZoneV]

Those messageboards aren't anything new or current. They've been in existence for a very very long time, in all sorts of shapes and forms. They existed digitally already in the days of dial-up boards where there was no internet with TCP/IP for easy connectivity. They existed before that in magazine and newbrief format.

If anything it has made it a lot easier to pickup and single out these kind of movements, although you can also see a trend of oldfashioned cryptography popping up again when they wise up to the fact of how easy it is to eavesdrop.

Just question yourself, when was the last time you checked the browsing history, chat logs, phone records, social media groups of your children? The very hardcore porn is the least of peoples concerns. I think the problem is that there is a generation of children who are cleverer and better clued up on information and communication technology. To such an extend that traditional parenting skills just isn't enough for a large number.

Another trend besides the darknet and obscure groups is the communication forums in online gaming environments.

I think you misunderstood my use of the word "currently". It does not mean "new", it means "at the present moment".

Also, while I agree that parents should keep a close eye on their children's online activities, I think it's easier said than done and besides, it's often young adults who live on their own who engage in this kind of thing.

 

[Mr Bump]

I read the first few posts on that message archive, truly awful stuff, made a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[dejongj]

I think you misunderstood my use of the word "currently". It does not mean "new", it means "at the present moment".

Also, while I agree that parents should keep a close eye on their children's online activities, I think it's easier said than done and besides, it's often young adults who live on their own who engage in this kind of thing.

No I didn't misunderstood. Those kind of boards have ALWAYS been like that, there is nothing "at the present moment" about it. If anything it is actually more moderated and watched by the security and intelligence communities.

I would never suggest it is easy for parents, however that should never be an excuse. Even for a seasoned person like myself I was totally taken by surprise when I found my daughter getting entangled in similar very dangerous situations last year. Despite what we thought was an open, honest and trustworthy relationship there was a whole different side. A side not easily found unless one starts digging and truth to be told you sometimes don't want to find out that kind of stuff. I will not go into further details but cannot praise the UK authorities enough who work in that area and have to day-in-day-in deal with this kind of s*** from people. A very tough job.

 

[ZoneV]

No I didn't misunderstood. Those kind of boards have ALWAYS been like that, there is nothing "at the present moment" about it.

I'm not disputing the fact that those boards have always been like that. I didn't say it a was new thing, I described them as they currently are.

I hope that explains it better so we can move on from the semantics.

 

[andya700]

I read the first few posts on that message archive, truly awful stuff, made a bad taste in my mouth.

They are totally sick, and the fact that it is so easy to get guns means that they get to act out their fantasies for real.
The US is a totally screwed up country.

 

[OldCarlos]

apparently the shooter was a "Mixed race Brit"

Yes, originally from Lancashire. The local Preston news has even printed the G/fathers name & general location.