Opt out ... it really should be illegal

[Cobra]

OK so I know why companies do it, but this is taking the p***.
A couple of months ago I received a letter ( as I'm sure millions of others did) from nest, regarding the work place pensions,
I immediately responded to the email address supplied, saying no thank you, its far too expensive and for less return than my private one.
I also copied it to the wages / accounts dept. at work.

I was informed (By nest) that I would be sent an opt out form before it begins on the 9th Sept.
Sure enough I got the details through the post, with the web address to opt out.
( any time from the 9th of August - 9th Sept.) Dead on "opening time", I opted out.
2 days later I received a letter stating that I had opted out.

And the now the real surprise (NOT! )
They have taken the first payment, from both me and my employer!
And that was from Augusts pay!
A double infraction as far as I am concerned!

OK so its not a fortune, but id they do this to millions of people, on a weekly / monthly basis.
they are gaining a lot of interest.

 

[viv1969]

Happened to me too Chris, the month before I was made redundant.
Pain in the posterior, but I did get the money back....after opting out twice!

 

[Cobra]

Happened to me too Chris, the month before I was made redundant.
Pain in the posterior, but I did get the money back....after opting out twice!

Oh they said from the "off" that any money pad to them would be refunded, if they *accidentally* took the first payment.
In other words we will take payment whatever, and there isn't a damned thing you can do about it.
Scamming ba'tids!

 

[neil_g]

i can see why they changed it to opt out. that doesn't excuse shoddy service however.

 

[Moadib]

they are gaining a lot of interest.

Fortunately or unfortunately they've utterly screwed the monetary system too, so if it's any consolation they'll struggle to get any interest at all.

Capitalism without capital....not sure how that is supposed to work...

Very annoying on the pensions opt-out. Our company had a lot of headaches with opt out too.

 

[nilagin]

I'm glad I've got a decent company pension, I just hope it remains that way.

 

[onomatopoeia]

they are gaining a lot of interest.

Do you know what the base rate is at the moment?

 

[Cobra]

i can see why they changed it to opt out.

As with many things, insurance renewals etc etc, so can I,but that doesn't alter the fact that taking money without consent, must be or should at least be illegal.

Do you know what the base rate is at the moment?

Very low, however with the millions that they take without consent, will still add up to a few quid.
Besides the money is better off in my bank account than theirs, I never gave them permission to take it, in fact contacted twice to tell them not too!

 

[nilagin]

As with many things, insurance renewals etc etc, so can I,but that doesn't alter the fact that taking money without consent, must be or should at least be illegal.


Very low, however with the millions that they take without consent, will still add up to a few quid.
Besides the money is better off in my bank account than theirs, I never gave them permission to take it, in fact contacted twice to tell them not too!

Perhaps if you are lucky the tax break you must have got for it won't get clawed back when they reimburse you.

 

[Cobra]

Perhaps if you are lucky the tax break you must have got for it won't get clawed back when they reimburse you.

I'd rather someone that has far more knowledge of the law than me, had the balls to start prosecuting these companies, that take money when they have been told not to! ( twice) and they actually acknowledged the fact twice, once via internet, once by snail mail.

 

[Llamaman]

Workplace pensions are deducted at source, so they 'took' it from your employer's account.
I haven't done much payroll processing (I avoid it like the plague as i find HR people generally useless) but from my experience payments are employer-led - i.e. not a penny leaves the company account without oversight.

So, the error lies mostly, or entirely, with your employer.

Look at it another way - who is more likely to have messed up - people who deal with workplace pensions every day and are regulated by the FCA, or a bunch of unqualified numpties who usually can't get you a working phone on your first day?

 

[viv1969]

Workplace pensions are deducted at source, so they 'took' it from your employer's account.
I haven't done much payroll processing (I avoid it like the plague as i find HR people generally useless) but from my experience payments are employer-led - i.e. not a penny leaves the company account without oversight.

So, the error lies mostly, or entirely, with your employer.

Look at it another way - who is more likely to have messed up - people who deal with workplace pensions every day and are regulated by the FCA, or a bunch of unqualified numpties who usually can't get you a working phone on your first day?

I have to disagree here.
NEST admitted they were to blame for the oversite.
We were a tiny company.
I opted out on the first possible day (at which point it was out if the hands of my employer.)
I had their email confirmation, then actual mail confirmation.
The money was taken regardless.
I then received a new "welcome" letter, and had to opt out a second time (getting all the same confirmations).
One month's contribution was taken regardless, and I had to chase voraciously to get it back.

 

[Llamaman]

So Nest can withdraw funds from a bank account without oversight or authorisation?
Bloody hell. Scammers will have a field day.

 

[Mr Bump]

I have my own Directors Pension

oh yes roll on 55

 

[viv1969]

So Nest can withdraw funds from a bank account without oversight or authorisation?
Bloody hell. Scammers will have a field day.

No.
They take it from your salary before it hits your account, right alongside the tax man.

 

[neil_g]

taking money without consent, must be or should at least be illegal.

I believe the employer had an obligation to warn the employee to opt out. Certainly there was a gazillion emails from HR at our place in the months before hand.

Like I say it doesn't excuse that opt out being processed too late providing it was submitted on time.

 

[Llamaman]

No.
They take it from your salary before it hits your account, right alongside the tax man.

Exactly, they take it from a bank account - your employer didn't pay salaries in cash stored in a big sack did they?

 

[viv1969]

Exactly, they take it from a bank account - your employer didn't pay salaries in cash stored in a big sack did they?

No, they don't take it from your bank account.
Your tax is taken from your salary before it reaches your bank account.
This is deducted in the same manner.
It isn't "taken", it is paid. Very different.

 

[Llamaman]

No tax isn't 'taken' from the employer's account. The employer makes the calculation and sends the payment. So if it's cocked up, it's the employer's fault, not HMRC.

This is the point I was making initially. If, as you have seemed to claim, the pensions are 'taken' from the employer's bank account, that's completely different to how PAYE works.

 

[Llamaman]

Ok, now seen your edit. So the system works as I initially said and which you disagreed with? uzzled:

 

[viv1969]

Ok, now seen your edit. So the system works as I initially said and which you disagreed with? uzzled:

I disagreed because you claimed it was the employers fault.
In my experience, that wasn't the case.
My employer was well aware that I had opted out on the first day I was able to do so, and had copies of both confirmations.
They still received the instruction from NEST to deduct the first contribution fom my salary, which they had no option but to do.
The "Tax man" makes errors every day, and rarely are they in favour of the individual.

 

[nilagin]

I'd rather someone that has far more knowledge of the law than me, had the balls to start prosecuting these companies, that take money when they have been told not to! ( twice) and they actually acknowledged the fact twice, once via internet, once by snail mail.

Try the Financial Ombudsman, you could get 8% interest too.

 

[Llamaman]

I've now skimmed through the Nest guide for employers and it works much as I assumed;

1. Employer calculates contributions and reports to Nest
2. Nest checks calculations and confirms
3. Employer makes payment to Nest and does payroll run

Crucially, Nest do not calculate and demand - the employer does the calculations. Also, Nest have no mechanism to deduct from an inidividual's payroll - even if the employer has a DD with Nest (which seems risky!) the payment should mirror that of the calculation and in any case comes out of fungible funds in the employer's bank account. Any mismatch comes out of the employer's pocket.

It seems the most likely explanation is that your employers informed Nest of your opt-out but then included you on the schedule anyway (and made the corresponding deduction from your pay) and Nest screwed up by not noticing the discrepancy.
I cannot see any way under the mechanism for the employer to correctly complete the contribution schedule, yet Nest to then overrule and interfere with the separate payroll run without the employer noticing - Nest have no control over the payroll run.
If your employer knowingly made an incorrect deduction from your payroll, they are not blameless.

 

[viv1969]

Fair enough...the employer screwed up their bit.
It is not, however, the employer's responsibility to inform NEST of an opt out; that is the responsibility of the individual.
So yes, that being the case, it seems a comedy of errors on both sides.

 

[Paulmag]

I pay into a pension BUT as its not on the scheme I was opted in automatically there is no choice and if you opt out you will be opted in again every 3 yrs then you can opt out again.

Its crazy I was opted in and after first months payment taken I had to opt out get a refund and pay into my existing scheme.

Its the goverment thats at fault in my view they should just ask employers to get a form opting out for employees so they didnt have to waste time and money enrolling us.

and dont get me started with you can spend all your pension pot of money after 55 yrs old.....................sounds a recipe for disaster.

http://www.workplacepensions.gov.uk/employer/
What is Automatic Enrolment?

The law on workplace pensions has changed. Under the Pensions Act 2008, every employer in the UK must put certain staff into a pension scheme and contribute towards it. This is called ‘Automatic Enrolment’.


Does Automatic Enrolment apply to me?

Automatic Enrolment applies to all employers who have at least one member of staff. It doesn’t just apply to businesses; if you employ someone directly to work for you – like a cleaner, personal care assistant or nanny, for example – you are an employer and will need to ensure that any eligible employees are enrolled into a workplace pension.

 

[Cobra]

I believe the employer had an obligation to warn the employee to opt out. .

My employer did though, when this was first mentioned, my employer said that they had a meeting a week later to discuss this with nest.
I gave him a letter to give to nest. Which he past on.

Try the Financial Ombudsman, you could get 8% interest too.

Got to be worth a shot
But as before the onus is on me to recover money which was mine in the first place.

Fair enough...the employer screwed up their bit.

I'm not convinced he did TBH the first I knew that they had taken the money, was (before my pay advice was sent)
That my employer phoned up very apologetic that "they" had taken the money, despite all the correct channels being followed.

So, the error lies mostly, or entirely, with your employer.

I don't believe that is so for the reason above.

It is not, however, the employer's responsibility to inform NEST of an opt out; that is the responsibility of the individual.

So the employer has no say in this? even though they are contributing as well?
Which I did twice direct to nest.
Once via the "more information / discuss further " email address that was supplied initially, and once via their automated opt out,
on the day that it "opened"..

The law on workplace pensions has changed. Under the Pensions Act 2008, every employer in the UK must put certain staff into a pension scheme and contribute towards it. This is called ‘Automatic Enrolment’.

No doubt because they have destroyed / spent the "state pension"
And in the not too distant future I bet the state pension doesn't exist, and so, although millions of us have been paying in for many years, we are now expected to fund our own retiurement
due to the ineptitude of successive UK governments.

and dont get me started with you can spend all your pension pot of money after 55 yrs old.....................sounds a recipe for disaster.

I assume that many people assumed that this was a nest egg, for their retirement, live on the state pension, and enjoy life with the money they had "saved"
<As above> and not to prop up the ineptitude of successive squandering governments.

 

[viv1969]

The employer actually has no say whatsoever in the decision to opt out, nor can they opt out for you.
Sounds like you did exactly the same as I did, and with the same result.

 

[Cobra]

The employer actually has no say whatsoever in the decision to opt out, nor can they opt out for you.
Sounds like you did exactly the same as I did, and with the same result.

Back to my post #10 in that case

I'd rather someone that has far more knowledge of the law than me, had the balls to start prosecuting these companies, that take money when they have been told not to!

 

[Sejanus Aelianus]

Glad I opted to retire early - this scheme sounds like a can of worms!

Commiserations to all you sufferers our there.

 

[nilagin]

The employer actually has no say whatsoever in the decision to opt out, nor can they opt out for you.
Sounds like you did exactly the same as I did, and with the same result.

I'd have thought that once you have opted out and informed your employer, your employer would also have to confirm to NEST your decision and that they wouldn't be making any contributions on their own behalf either. Quite how contributions were made as a result are anyone's guess.

 

[Cobra]

Glad I opted to retire early - this scheme sounds like a can of worms!

I've still a little way to go, but its becoming more and more tempting to sell up, cash in and move to somewhere off the beaten track.
And live a life of "luxury"

 

[Cobra]

I'd have thought that once you have opted out and informed your employer, your employer would also have to confirm to NEST your decision and that they wouldn't be making any contributions on their own behalf either

TBH I would have thought the same, but as per the opening post it seems they will take the first payment what ever you do or say.
See post #3 quote below.

they said from the "off" that any money pad to them would be refunded, if they *accidentally* took the first payment.

 

[nilagin]

I've still a little way to go, but its becoming more and more tempting to sell up, cash in and move to somewhere off the beaten track.
And live a life of "luxury"

I was originally tempted to retire at 58 (just over 4yrs to go) the earliest I can take my work pension unless there is another redundancy / early retirement package, which would bring it forward to 55. But my current workplace is like a retirement home, no pressure, easy going, and finish each day fairly early or start mid afternoon depending on shift. I am tempted to stay on and keep topping up the pension.

 

[nilagin]

Just out of interest, were you provided with any projections of what return you would receive on the contributions? I get yearly updates on my company pension.

 

[Cobra]

Just out of interest, were you provided with any projections of what return you would receive on the contributions? I get yearly updates on my company pension.

Indeed, and the in put was far higher, and the return far less,
Than the private pension I have now.

Hence my lack of interest in the compulsory, sorry I think I meant voluntary "nest"

 

[viv1969]

I'd have thought that once you have opted out and informed your employer, your employer would also have to confirm to NEST your decision and that they wouldn't be making any contributions on their own behalf either. Quite how contributions were made as a result are anyone's guess.

I'm sure they do, but they have no say in your decision to opt out.

 

[Llamaman]

Quite how contributions were made as a result are anyone's guess.

And that the employer thought it appropriate and acceptable to pass on the cost of an administrative error to the employee is staggering.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

If they keep behaving this way it may become another PPI scandal and frankly they would totally deserve it. We just need good greedy fat cat lawyers working on our side.

 

[Cobra]

We just need good greedy fat cat lawyers working on our side.

Agreed, but I doubt that it would happen

 

[Paulmag]

there seems to be some misunderstanding on how this workplace pension works.
As I understand it and confirmed re opting out see link below

If you are in a scheme that does not qualify (when I was auto enrolled they decided mine wasnt a qualifying scheme) and you earn more than £10k per year your employer is bound by law to automatically enroll you if they dont they can get a hefty fine.

AFTER you are enrolled you can opt out but you have to do it via the scheme operator

your employer will have to enrol you every 3 yrs and you either stay in or opt out again.

As I understand it your employer cannot (or is wise not to in case fined) fail to enrol you.................how can it be auto enrolment if you can opt out of being enrolled.

somehow the government believes these low cost schemes people are being enrolled in are going to pay you some decent pension................I doubt it myself

Employers are required to automatically re-enrol eligible jobholders into the workplace pension scheme, normally every three years, but members can decide to opt out once enrolled

just make sure you do it within the first month

http://www.pensionsadvisoryservice....ensions-basics/automatic-enrolment/opting-out

How can I opt out if I don’t want to join my employer’s workplace pension scheme?


If you're an eligible jobholder, who doesn’t want to join your employer’s workplace pension scheme, you can opt out of the scheme after you have been automatically enrolled.


If you opt out of the scheme within one month of being automatically enrolled, you will be treated as if you had never joined the scheme, and any money that you have paid into the scheme will be refunded in full. You'll only receive back the payments that you are deemed to have made; you're not entitled to receive the contributions your employer may have made or any tax relief the Government has paid.

How long does opting out last for?
An opt-out from the pension scheme normally lasts for three years. If you've opted out, or stopped contributions to the scheme, your employer is required to automatically enrol you into the scheme at a later date (normally every three years), if you're an eligible jobholder at that time. If you’re still not ready to join the scheme or start paying contributions again, you can decide to opt out for a further three year period. You may also change your view and you can speak to your employer about opting in to the scheme at any time.

The reason that employers are required to automatically enrol eligible jobholders, who have opted out or stopped contributions, every three years is because your circumstances may have changed and saving into a workplace pension to build up retirement benefits may now be the right thing for you.