Official Talk Leica thread

More red aeroplanes (Panasonic G9 / Leica DG Vario-Elmar 100~400mm)...

Red Arrows Sidmouth Air Show 2021 G9 P1013676.JPG
 
Andrew, I don't mean to be off or anything but you do realise the Lumix Leica DG vario elmar isn't made by Leica but is in fact made by Panasonic? Panasonic own the rights to use the Leica brand name and for several tears have also manufactured the Leica compacts with the latest versions being re badged Panasonic LX100's. I fell into the trap a few years back buying a "Leica 45mm macro" for M43 which was made by Panasonic and had never been near a Leica factory. Its basically a sales strategy by Panasonic using the Leica brand name to imply the lens is of the very highest quality. Its something that I feel misleads the customer. Having owned Panasonic "Leica" lenses and an LX100 as well as the Leica's I currently have I can honestly say there's a world of difference between the two.
 
Hi, ... (M9 - Summarit 2,5/35 f 2,5 ; crop) :



L1027697_DxO-L35s-25-c.jpg
 

Attachments

  • L1027697_DxO-L35s-25.jpg
    L1027697_DxO-L35s-25.jpg
    437.8 KB · Views: 0
magicaxeman said:
Andrew, I don't mean to be off or anything but you do realise the Lumix Leica DG vario elmar isn't made by Leica but is in fact made by Panasonic?
Click to expand...
Yes.
magicaxeman said:
I can honestly say there's a world of difference between the two.
Click to expand...
I've used Leicas since the end of the 1960s and I can honestly say that I completely disagree with you.

At the end of the day, Leica is a brand name that has been sold off to various new owners and which, even while the parent company was still Ernst Leitz GmbH, bought in components and entire cameras from other manufacturers.

Minolta, for example, designed and built the Leica CL, as well as supplying two "Rokkor" lenses to fit its M-Mount, They also built the XE which then appeared, with some cosmetic changes, as the Leica R3. Minolta made three of the Leica branded lenses to go with the new R3: Elmarit-R 24mm f/2.8, 16mm f/2.8, and Vario-Elmar 70-210 f/4. Leica's next reflex was the R4, basically a Minolta XD in a Leica-esque body covering.

Come the digital age and the Leica brand eloped with another Japanese partner, this time Fuji, of "Texas Leica" fame. This resulted in the Leica Digilux range, thinly disguised versions of Fuji's digital range (which were quite nice cameras and far less expensive than their siblings).

Cometh the new century, cometh a new partner: Panasonic. First out of the gate was Panasonic's DMC-LC1, thinly disguised as the Leica Digilux 2, this did much to restore the Leica brand's credibility. Since then there's been around 20 rebranded Panasonic designs, complete with that red dot and the word "Leica" prominently displayed. As part of the deal between the two brands, Panasonic gets to use the "Leica" name on various products and the Leica Camera AG taps into Panasonic's development and production facilities, which are way bigger than their own.

It's a long time since Leica fabricated most of their own parts and even then, people put various other makers' lenses and other accessories on the cameras...

Leica IIIc and M3 cameras.jpg
 
The digital era is all about supply chain IMHO, many cameras have Sony sensors (Sony bought up sensor fab companies) and I'd guess that various chips, capacitors and PCBs in many cameras are supplier sourced

Voigtlander and Zeiss are made in the same place

Like the watch industry, there's a kudos to 'in house' but it doesn't always denote a quality product...

AFAIK (...) Leica has it's own glass laboratory, but having skilled suppliers deliver components to bespoke specification is how the world works these days.
 
Adzman808 said:
...but having skilled suppliers deliver components to bespoke specification is how the world works these days.
Click to expand...
Agreed.

Belgian company Cmosis has been reported to have supplied sensors for some of the Leica range, such as the Type 240. I would guess that Leica AG will have other suppliers to keep their eggs out of the same basket. ;)
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Agreed.

Belgian company Cmosis has been reported to have supplied sensors for some of the Leica range, such as the Type 240. I would guess that Leica AG will have other suppliers to keep their eggs out of the same basket. ;)
Click to expand...
Yes CMOSIS and the 240 was no secret, quite possibly they also made the M10 sensor too, and they also made the MF S007 sensor.

The M10R and the S3 share the same sensor supplier (I forget who)

The M11 and one of the SL variants use a Sony sensor.

The CL and TL and X range use a Sony sensor

The Q and SL perhaps use the same supplier as Panasonic (maybe that’s TowerJazz… sounds like a transformer name to me)

But Leica isn’t just picking these out of a catalog.. these sensors are then given different micro lenses, quite likely different CFAs, for the M the PDAF pixels will (should) be dropped

The sensors will then be tuned for amplification (setting base ISO etc) to Leica’s spec and finally assembled into a camera by someone who has the word Leica on their pay cheque.

It’s not where the bits come from, it’s their design and implementation that makes the product. After the product comes aftersales, warranty, repair, service, global dealer network (and with Leica the warm fuzzies of owning THAT brand, this too has a cost… ambassadors, sponsorshi, events, marketing)

So IMHO the actual company name on the pay slip of the person that presses the green button on the machine that makes the widget that ends up on ‘your’ canikonujisoniceica camera is pretty irrelevant in determining if it’s a good camera (or phone/car/can opener or whatever.)
 
Adzman808 said:
So IMHO the actual company name on the pay slip of the person that presses the green button on the machine that makes the widget that ends up on ‘your’ canikonujisoniceica camera is pretty irrelevant in determining if it’s a good camera (or phone/car/can opener or whatever.)
Click to expand...
Yes. That's how I see it as well.

The brand on the camera may direct you to the identity of the group who are pulling it all together or it may not. In the case of Leica, the publicly available information suggests that around half of the cameras made under that brand, since the CL was released in 1973, were actually the work of other teams than those at Wetzlar or Solms and who operated under other brands such as Fuji or Panasonic.
 
Last edited:
Adzman808 said:
...
So IMHO the actual company name on the pay slip of the person that presses the green button on the machine that makes the widget that ends up on ‘your’ canikonujisoniceica camera is pretty irrelevant in determining if it’s a good camera (or phone/car/can opener or whatever.)
Click to expand...
Hi, Leica is an SMB with a big name, acting like other manufacturing companies.

In the car industry, 70% of the components are from suppliers. So, the brand owner does design, construction, sourcing, quality control, supply chain management, assembly ... etc.

One might ask, How much Mercedes is in my made in Germany Mercedes car ? --- Not very much.

The same goes for the camera industry, on a smaller scale, cameras being less complex than cars.

Customers live with that, and they have to.

The only cases when customers might get annoyed is when brand owners practice badge engineering, i.e. just sticking their own badge on a product sourced completely from a supplier
and selling it with a hefty uplift (and profit).

The Hasselblad-SONYs might be a case in point... ---

But, anyway, camera makers try to be money makers, too. This is life ---

_____________________________________________________________


Hi, ... (M9 - Elmarit-M 2,8/90 f 2,8 ; crop) :



L1027681_DxO-L902-28-c.jpg
 

Attachments

  • L1027681_DxO-L902-28-f.jpg
    L1027681_DxO-L902-28-f.jpg
    323.8 KB · Views: 0
justpix said:
Hi, Leica is an SMB with a big name, acting like other manufacturing companies.

In the car industry, 70% of the components are from suppliers. So, the brand owner does design, construction, sourcing, quality control, supply chain management, assembly ... etc.

One might ask, How much Mercedes is in my made in Germany Mercedes car ? --- Not very much.

The same goes for the camera industry, on a smaller scale, cameras being less complex than cars.

Customers live with that, and they have to.

The only cases when customers might get annoyed is when brand owners practice badge engineering, i.e. just sticking their own badge on a product sourced completely from a supplier
and selling it with a hefty uplift (and profit).

The Hasselblad-SONYs might be a case in point... ---

But, anyway, camera makers try to be money makers, too. This is life ---
Click to expand...
Yes exactly.

If you buy a Gordon Ramsay recipe book, and all the exact utensils he uses, all the same ingredients from the same places, then Gordon comes to your kitchen teaches you the techniques and supervises you cooking the meal… who’s recipe is it? Yours or Gordon’s?

Then afterwards Gordon goes back home and you cook it again changing nothing and doing nothing different you will still get the Ramsey meal.

Company XYZ managing suppliers using their chosen tools, components and processes is the same as that company producing the item themselves really.

As you say Immo, buying someone else’s product and sticking your brand name on it is not.

How much is Leica Panasonic (or how much Panasonic is Leica)?

Well who outside of each company can say exactly?! Certainly enough that Leica don’t mind their name on Pany products but not enough so that Pany don’t have their own brand heritage…

…and a whole lot more of each within each since the L Alliance that’s for sure
 
Adzman808 said:
Company XYZ managing suppliers using their chosen tools, components and processes is the same as that company producing the item themselves really.
Click to expand...
I think it's even simpler: a brand is a marketing tool.

It claims to tell you the quality of what you're buying but that's somewhere between a pious hope and an outright lie. In reality, brands guarantee nothing because they are quite separate from the many groups and individuals whose aggregate work creates the object.

However, brand managers will go to great effort to maintain the image of a successful brand and that comes down to three things: quality control, customer support and advertising.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I think it's even simpler: a brand is a marketing tool.

It claims to tell you the quality of what you're buying but that's somewhere between a pious hope and an outright lie. In reality, brands guarantee nothing because they are quite separate from the many groups and individuals whose aggregate work creates the object.

However, brand managers will go to great effort to maintain the image of a successful brand and that comes down to three things: quality control, customer support and advertising.
Click to expand...
There are a great many brands, so the quality of the claims made by each will vary.

Many successful brands have a reputation based on the performance of their products, not just how Don Draper their marketing execs are

The brand has too exist before the marketing does.

"quality control, customer support and advertising." are very much part of "many groups and individuals whose aggregate work creates the object."

Without quality you have no customers, without support you have unhappy customers and without advertising no one knows you have the first two things at all

These things are inextricably linked, not three islands surrounded by a sea of pious prayer and a porky pie!
 
Adzman808 said:
...
Without quality you have no customers, without support you have unhappy customers and without advertising no one knows you have the first two things at all ...
Click to expand...

Hi, perhaps one should include a value proposition.

In the 1970s there was a saying among university students I knew Leica R ist Minolta für Doofe (Leica R is Minolta for Dummies) when Minolta cooperated with LEITZ,

These students, who only just could afford Minolta, dissed LEITZ.

But this is always a problem when companies cooperate closely, or when components are shared between different brands owned by one company.

Car testers often check Lamborghinis or Bentleys to find out how many VW, AUDI or Porsche parts are used in them. ---

This exchange started with the Panasonic - Leica relationship.

I have a soft spot for both brands. My first PC, bought in 1983, was a Panasonic. So was my first MFT lens, the LUMIX 1,7/20.

My long Leica journey started in 1988 and will be continued ... ---
 
Adzman808 said:
These things are inextricably linked, not three islands surrounded by a sea of pious prayer and a porky pie!
Click to expand...
I'm not at all sure whether you're agreeing with me or disagreeing. :ROFLMAO:
 
Hi, struggling ... (M9 - Summarit 2,5/35 f 2,5 ; crop) :



L1027702_DxO-L35s-25-c.jpg
 

Attachments

  • L1027702_DxO-L35s-25.jpg
    L1027702_DxO-L35s-25.jpg
    463.5 KB · Views: 0
I tried this little TT artisans 28mm 5.6 Summaron copy a couple of months ago and was quite impressed with it. I’ve had other Chinese made lenses which were crap quite frankly.

Now I own it and looking forward to really seeing if it’s any good! :)

5B155B02-AEA6-4F8B-8414-71ABAC2EA0D8.jpeg
 
Treescape with sky or skyscape with trees? (Panasonic TZ70 / Leica DC Vario Elmar)...

Trees against blue sky and cloud TZ70 TZ70 P1030518.JPG
 
Hi, broken by the wind after the frost ... (SONY A7R2 - LEITZ Elmarit-R 2,8/135 f 2,8 ) :



DSC04232-a7r22-L135r-28.jpg
 
Making use of travel time (Panasonic TZ70 / Leica DC Vario Elmar)...

Feet on the fascia Exeter TZ70 P1030856 (8) Mono crop.JPG
 
Last edited:
The weirdest Leica repair request? (warning possible T.M.I.)

I'm severely disabled and stuck in a bed 24/7, as such I have had to make certain arrangements for my day to day needs which includes toileting. I use a jug which I then empty into a small commode beside the bed. The shelf where I was keeping my camera's and lenses was also adjacent to this commode.
One morning I awake to find I missed the commode but got the shelf! luckily the half case on my M10 protected it and all my lenses where ok with only my Summicron 50 having been splashed so I wiped it down with an Andrex wipe, dried it and all seemed ok. Move forward a couple of months and I get the Summicron out, the lens elements are perfect, the aperture is fine but the focus is locked solid! Its then that I start to realise what's happened, you see I'm a poorly regulated diabetic who always has slightly to very high blood glucose levels, as such my urine contains sugar, it seems to me some got into the focus mechanism, dried and has stuck it solid.
I've sent a repair request in but I don't know if he's going to believe " Sorry I p***ed on my Summicron". I'm just lucky it wasn't the M10.
All the camera gear has obviously been moved to a d=safe draw now away from trouble and even though I haven't had a bill yet for a strip/clean/lube and rebuild yet I can still see the funny side of it. Has anyone else had their Leica gear damaged in weird or unusual circumstances?
 
wibbly said:
I tried this little TT artisans 28mm 5.6 Summaron copy a couple of months ago and was quite impressed with it. I’ve had other Chinese made lenses which were crap quite frankly.

Now I own it and looking forward to really seeing if it’s any good! :)
Click to expand...

I bought the what then was 7Artisans 35/2 when I first got my M10 and even though I bought a Zeiss Biogon 35/2 I still can't get rid of the 7Artisans and often find myself picking it up instead of the Zeiss, there's just something about it.
 
Hi, ... (M9 - ZEISS Distagon 1,4/35 f 1,4 ; crop + 0.9 ND filter) :



L1008318_DxO-z35d-14-c.jpg


(I wanted to use the Distagon open in sunshine. My low-cost solution is the purchase of the B&W ND filter at € 55.00. (Another solution would be a M11 at € 8350.)

The filter does not seem to degrade IQ, I think.)
 

Attachments

  • L1008318_DxO-z35d-14-f.jpg
    L1008318_DxO-z35d-14-f.jpg
    363.7 KB · Views: 1
Hi, flare trials ... (M9 - ZEISS Distagon 1,4/35 + 0.9 ND filter) :

f 1,4 :

L1008346_DxO-z35d-14.jpg



f 8 :

L1008347_DxO-z35d-8.jpg


One can see the light circles in the pics, lower right. Of course, the question might be raised whether these are ND filter artifacts. -

So, one should do a retrial with an M11 which does not need ND filters ... ;)

Rangefinder benefit : Every now and then, one is challenged to list advantages of rangefinder cameras vs. other systems.

I found that the viewfinder image is not darkened by using ND filters. It is always the same --- ( :))
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top