Official Talk Leica thread

Thank you very much, Adam, for sharing your M10 experiences! (y)

Reports like yours are most valuable, but very rare, unfortunately.

I like it best when owners, who bought their gear with their own money, write about their experiences.

Marketing hype-wave surfers and influencers I do not care about ...
 
Thank you very much, Adam, for sharing your M10 experiences! (y)

Reports like yours are most valuable, but very rare, unfortunately.

I like it best when owners, who bought their gear with their own money, write about their experiences.

Marketing hype-wave surfers and influencers I do not care about ...

Thanks for reading Immo!

It’s still in the honeymoon phase, but I don’t foresee falling out of love with it anytime soon!

A review of it in a paragraph might read something like:

Although on paper the spec and performance doesn’t greatly exceed the preceding M240, the M10 is a significantly more mature product with a far greater focus on pure photography. Looking at the respective secondhand cost between the two models, the cool calm calculations of reason will tell you the M10 doesn’t offer enough for the considerable difference in price. However anyone hovering between the two cameras, for whom cost isn’t the deciding factor, would no doubt enjoy the performance tweaks, IQ gains and sophistication that the M10 brings to the table.

……..

Other notes!

I do wish they hadn’t removed the on/cont/timed power button (now it’s on/off and the cont and timer modes are in the menu, and yes if you were wondering… it’s like the Fuji now - if you set the self timer and turn the camera off/on it reverts back too not-self timed. Yet bizarrely retains the cont setting if you do the same thing)

The M240 had a feature where to engage the EV on the scroll wheel you could also set it so that you also had to press the Fn button on the front (to avoid accidentally moving the EV wheel). Now the setting is EV wheel yes/no

But I guess this is how cameras end up fully loaded, lots of people want lots of things and trying to please everyone makes for a busy menu!
 
Good summation Adam (@Adzman808).

Having not shot another Leica digital before buying mine (other than a single image on a M9 once upon a time), it was difficult to benchmark against anything else. I found through extensive research a good selection of reviews from good independent sources who could see further than the name and this helped make my mind up on going for one. I was teetering on buying an M240, but know I would have had that nagging thought constantly if I hadn't gone for the M10-P, simply as it was the latest model!

I find the M10-P very similar in use to my M6, which is just about perfect IMHO (if only I could afford an M10-P & an MP film camera!). Of course, heavier, but you can feel the history and family line switching between the two. The only real world difference I find is for some reason I find the viewfinder in the M6 much nicer on the eye.... I have no reference for validation on that, both are 0.72 magnification and optical so should have pretty much identical rendering... but they don't!

All in all, I've been super pleased with my M10-P purchase (like you Adam, the most obscene amount of money I've ever spent on a single item, excluding houses, cars and holidays :ROFLMAO:) . It's taken me a long time to get used to manual focussing, which is probably due more to my eyesight than anything else and I find the metering pretty archaic in comparison to the Z6 I have for instance, but no way will it be going anywhere for an awful long time.
 
Good summation Adam (@Adzman808).

Having not shot another Leica digital before buying mine (other than a single image on a M9 once upon a time), it was difficult to benchmark against anything else. I found through extensive research a good selection of reviews from good independent sources who could see further than the name and this helped make my mind up on going for one. I was teetering on buying an M240, but know I would have had that nagging thought constantly if I hadn't gone for the M10-P, simply as it was the latest model!

I find the M10-P very similar in use to my M6, which is just about perfect IMHO (if only I could afford an M10-P & an MP film camera!). Of course, heavier, but you can feel the history and family line switching between the two. The only real world difference I find is for some reason I find the viewfinder in the M6 much nicer on the eye.... I have no reference for validation on that, both are 0.72 magnification and optical so should have pretty much identical rendering... but they don't!

All in all, I've been super pleased with my M10-P purchase (like you Adam, the most obscene amount of money I've ever spent on a single item, excluding houses, cars and holidays :ROFLMAO:) . It's taken me a long time to get used to manual focussing, which is probably due more to my eyesight than anything else and I find the metering pretty archaic in comparison to the Z6 I have for instance, but no way will it be going anywhere for an awful long time.

Thank you very much Dave.

I have the M9 and 240 and now M10 (one needs to go, and it won't be the newboy or the the M9!!)

The M9 is in many ways the most simple camera, it lacks live view and has but one metering mode.

Despite them all being within a few mm and <100 grams of each other I find they feel surprisingly different in the hand.

I think much of this semi-psychological!

I think It's like a motorbike with a fairing, if you take the fairing off and ride it, it some how feels smaller and more nimble and lighter (it's not the first two and only the weight of the fairing for the third) - it's because when you ride it you're used to seeing the fairing around the cockpit, then when you take the fairing off the bike feels small.

The 240 (that's the thickest one, by about 0.9mm over the M9) has a big, flat and largely featureless top plate. I think this makes it look bigger and heavier than it is

The M9 (and M10) have a kinda stepped top plate that I think makes them look smaller, and when something looks small it can feel lighter.

There's also the very real truth of mass centralisation - of which the M10 is better than the 240 (the 240 is more front heavy)

The 240 gets a bad rep IMHO. It's a good camera, who's only crime was to have the clucking audacity to arrive straight after the M9 with no CCD sensor :D

Anecdotal forum evidence suggests the 240 is the most robust M as well in terms of problems...

The thing I love most about the M9 is the simple workflow, by and large the files either look nearly finished upon import or they're not really worth pursuing IMO

The thing I found with the M240 is the amount of work... it's harder work in the hand (thicker and heavier), it's harder work on the camera/menu (more buttons and menu features), it's harder work in post (crucial to get WB correct -yeah I know that's true with any camera- various little foibles around banding, noise, green shadows, clipping the red channel). So all in all the 240 is a great camera, makes nice images (I've compared some M10 and 240 shots and <1600iso there's very little in it), but you need to work the 240 hard... IMO none of the RAW apps (for me that's LR, C1, DxO, SilkyPix) make particularly special 'magical' colours with 240 files straight out of the box, so having a robust workflow is crucial.

The M10 sits somewhere between the M9 and 240 - the images are more 240 than M9, but the work flow is more M9 than 240.

I can live with that.

I don't cry myself to sleep at night because no other camera has a FF CCD sensor other than the M9 (unlike it seems some folks over on LCF :D ) - when I want the M9 look, I just shoot my M9 !!

But what I can live without is spending ages in front of a screen pi$$ing about with image editing, and with this the M10 really delivers, for me anyway - as ever OMMV

It seems to me (....) that sensor improvements within the industry have been steady for the last few years, with new models offering IBIS, more megapix etc rather than colossal leaps in DR and max ISO.

That Leica has kinda caught up with current-ish tech, in a package that's been refined over decades is great.

Or put another way - finally the M is modern enough for most tasks (in a 2016 sort of way, which was after all when it was designed), but still with all the joy that shooting a rangefinder brings (erm sometimes brings!)

Providing I haven't bought a lemon (and it came with a 1yr warranty), I can't see me being particularly disappointed with my purchase

Maybe the eye relief is different between the M10 and the M6?
 
Let's have some more M10 randomness!!

Remember some posts back I said that the Leica native profile was very bad with artificial lighting?

So let's examine that...

Here we have a ginger cat, sitting on an orange cushion, while behind is another cushion, a yellowy-orange one (Mrs Adam is well into orange btw!)

FM.JPG

These images are exactly the same !!

They each have zero edits and AWB.

So what have I done to do calm the colours?

Well if one reads the adobe DNG spec document, it transpires that adobe highly recommend using forwarding matrices within the .DCP files that LR/ACR uses to display DNG (well all RAW really)

Leica (for whatever reason) don't include forward matrices within their native profile.

However, a little bit of jiggery pokery and the magic of linear algebra*, and we can retain the content of the native profile but make it far more robust by adhering it to the DNG spec.

Obviously both images need editing and WB correct - the point is that the image on right starts off from a more natural place


*I'll spare you the tale of the colossal PITA it was to learn how to do this, considering I failed maths at school, then again when I retook the exam the year after leaving school. Plus of course the irony of every school child's war cry of but why do I need to learn algebra, I'm never going to use it! Well it turns out that a considerable number of years later, I did need to know how to do algebra !! :D
 
Ok final one (for now!!)

Lots of pics here, but screen grabs so that hopefully I don't deal with TP forum size limits!

Now that I've (hopefully) demonstrated that creating profiles might be a lot of work to begin with, but it sure makes life easier then on in.. Let's take a look!

Let's start with so how much work in post?

0edit12cla.JPG

zero edits, except +12 clarity and one of my custom profiles

0edit12cla2.JPG

zero edits, except +12 clarity and one of my custom profiles


Let's see how adobe/Leica profiles compare

2800K(ish)

adbVm10.2.JPG
Adobe (left) and Leica M10 native


D5000K(ish)
adbVm10.JPG

Adobe (left) and Leica M10 native

Quite a big difference no?

Let's examine some other benefits of owning a more modern Leica M !!

iso1.JPG

ISO 8000 pushed maybe a stop or so... (so 16000 ish)

But what about the noise?

iso2.JPG

Note that I've disabled all NR/Sharpening to present this !!

For comparison, I don't take my M9 above iso 640 in camera (and if needed coax it up to around 2000 in post) and on the M240 anything above iso 3200 is labelled 'push'

This is a whole new shooting envelop for me ! (obviously nothing to see here if you've got any other modern camera or probably even phone!)

Another M10 modern concession..

shad.JPG

Unlike the clucking weather here atm, the M10 brightens up nicely!

A couple of random ones!!

car.JPG

pretty old car!

red-grn.JPG

Whenever I play with profiles I find myself obsessing about red and green for some reason!

I think it's because I consider red and green to be quite signature colours for the M9, and I love the M9 colours!

which brings me too

vm9.JPG

M9 and M10 (same lens, base ISO and same exposure settings)

M10 image has my vaguely M9y custom profile!

So there we have it, happy me with my M10 and images that I hope show why I'm happy with it!

Now I need it to stop raining so that I can try and actually make some photos, rather than test shots!
 
Great info Adam. It’s times like this I’m quite happy I’m colourblind. I find differentiating between subtle colour shift quite difficult, particularly on a screen :ROFLMAO:

I bought a couple of different specific profiles for the M10 when I first picked up my M10-P but to be honest find them difficult to distinguish from standard to the changed profile.

I also found a little bit of information on the Leica forum where people were giving slight changes to the calibration profile colour sliders. Once again the subtle colour changes are quite lost on me!

From most of the info I’ve read elsewhere a little contrast and a good heap of clarity boost is heading the right way with M10 files and I quite like this option - my personal preference is for quite a contrasty look.

David Farkas made his own M Lightroom presets freely available and always does a good job with the M10 files.

Finally, I have read a few comparisons with the M9 files and the popular option is to boost the saturation and vibrancy on an M10 file to give that ‘M9 look’. Not sure how accurate that is.

Sometimes I think if I’d bought a Monochrom it would have life much more simple:ROFLMAO:
 
Great info Adam. It’s times like this I’m quite happy I’m colourblind. I find differentiating between subtle colour shift quite difficult, particularly on a screen :ROFLMAO:

Thanks very much Dave. I just aim for what pleases me really, or if I'm shooting for someone else what pleases them - anything else is white noise :D

I bought a couple of different specific profiles for the M10 when I first picked up my M10-P but to be honest find them difficult to distinguish from standard to the changed profile.

IIRC don't you use C1? Didn't realise anyone offered anything camera specific for C1.

I also found a little bit of information on the Leica forum where people were giving slight changes to the calibration profile colour sliders. Once again the subtle colour changes are quite lost on me!

The camera calibration sliders are the same as the color matrix sliders in adobe DNG editor, and these modify the forward matrices, which is why I was so keen to learn how to make forward matrices - they're the colour backbone of the DNG spec!

David Farkas made his own M Lightroom presets freely available and always does a good job with the M10 files.

Yeah I downloaded that preset, (despite it being for LR CC and a wee bit complicated to get into LR6) - I think David's love of contrast about matches mine, but his love of +20 saturation and vibrance is pushing it!! But I ended up making an exposure preset that's somewhere around his M240/M10 one and think this way of working with CMOS files is very pleasing.

The guy that's behind Color Fidelity told me Leicas work best with matrix only profiles, that guy knows his onions but I still made a go to town profile as well :) (that's colour matrices + Hue Sat Deltas and a LUT oh and a tone curve !!)

Finally, I have read a few comparisons with the M9 files and the popular option is to boost the saturation and vibrancy on an M10 file to give that ‘M9 look’. Not sure how accurate that is.

I'm past trying to define the M9 - sure it has it's look, but it means different things to different people and a quick look through any M9 flickr group or image thread on a forum shows that a great many people present the M9 files in a great many ways!

(The M9 colours are nice, but it's magic is the tonality IMHO)

Sometimes I think if I’d bought a Monochrom it would have life much more simple:ROFLMAO:

ahahaha very true, personally I like colour waaaay to much for a BW only camera
 
IIRC don't you use C1? Didn't realise anyone offered anything camera specific for C1.

I tried it originally with the Fuji files but in the end went back to LR as it’s what I’m so much more used to!


The guy that's behind Color Fidelity told me Leicas work best with matrix only profiles, that guy knows his onions but I still made a go to town profile as well :) (that's colour matrices + Hue Sat Deltas and a LUT oh and a tone curve !!)

Those are the profiles I bought, but in truth barely use them! I see very little difference - probably due to my colour blindness. I keep my editing super easy now - after all the rest of it is hard enough to get right :giggle:

personally I like colour waaaay to much for a BW only camera

Weirdly enough I really like colour with the M6 (Portra400 etc), but much prefer digital files in black and white.

I wouldn’t want to be without my colour M10, but I could quite easily see me using a Monochrom quite a bit if I had one. Not that, that option is in the equation anytime soon! :-)
 
I tried it originally with the Fuji files but in the end went back to LR as it’s what I’m so much more used to!

I think for Sony and Fuji (both of whom have some sort of relationship with C1) it's a great bit of software, but frankly I think their Leica support is a joke (don't ask)

In a way I think C1 is technically better than LR, but somehow LR edits just have a bit more presence... People like to trash talk adobe (and I see why) but they're not some mom and pop corner store - they're basically the global standard in digital imaging!

Those are the profiles I bought, but in truth barely use them! I see very little difference - probably due to my colour blindness. I keep my editing super easy now - after all the rest of it is hard enough to get right :giggle:

I bought them to sanity check where I was with my own profile work. Kind of a waste of money as I was already about where Colin is, well IMHO of course, but his profiles are matrix only based with different tone curves. Which is how I roll!

I also used dcamprof (which is silly complex) and ended up buying lumariver which is the same thing but far easier to use
 
I usually simply adjust shadows and blacks & weak exposure to be honest, just to give a little more contrast.

To my eye that looks fine Dave,

Images can start looking a bit 'digital' IMO if they have a lot of contrast

just tweaked the calibration profile colours as others who shoot M10 suggest

What tweaks do you do to the sliders and with which profile, the adobe one or the leica one?
 
To my eye that looks fine Dave,

Images can start looking a bit 'digital' IMO if they have a lot of contrast



What tweaks do you do to the sliders and with which profile, the adobe one or the leica one?

This is using the Leica profile. I found it by research, pretty sure it came from the Leica forum.

Settings as follows -

Set in the development module under camera calibration

Primary values red: hue +10; Saturation -5
Primary values green: hue 0; Saturation 0
Primary values blue: hue 0; Saturation -20

Interested to hear your views Adam.
 
Cheers Dave, I’ll have a play with it and let you know!
 
I'm not convinced I like it (or even the software that much!) but I had another go at making an ICC C1 profile today!

C:\Users\adam_\Downloads\dcamprof-1.0.6-win64 (1)>dcamprof make-icc -n "Leica M10" -f m10curve2.tif -t tone-curve.json -t m10lut-curve.json -g adobergb-strong my-profile.json LeicaM10-dcamprof03.icc
Additional tone-curve specified, merging.
Provided transfer function has 65536 entries, downsampling to 4096 (as ICCv2 can't handle more).
Warning: provided transfer function ends at 0.999985 rather than 1.0, compensating.
Generating ICC RGB to Lab LUT with 33x33x33 = 35937 entries...
Calculating valid in-gamut entries........12%....24%....36%....48%....60%....72%....84%....96%..100%
Applying tone reproduction operator...done!
Converting from XYZ to Lab...done!
done!
Writing output to "LeicaM10-dcamprof03.icc"...
Complete!

c1.JPG

I'm not sure I'm going to waste too much effort on this... but it's there if I need it at least!
 
@wibbly

Five minute fiddle!

dave1.JPG

Leica M10 standard (left) V Leica M10 standard + Dave mods (right)



dave2.JPG

Leica M10 standard (left) V Leica M10 standard + Dave mods (right)


I'm not so convinced about the tweaks to the red channel, but then I'm a complete sucker for big, purpley reds!!

The blue channel tweaks I like though, they make the picture more calm I think!

I just had a little play and for me, YMMV something about here


dave3.JPG


looks quite nice

The problem with all of this is that one size doesn't fit all!
 
@wibbly

Five minute fiddle!

View attachment 321694

Leica M10 standard (left) V Leica M10 standard + Dave mods (right)



View attachment 321695

Leica M10 standard (left) V Leica M10 standard + Dave mods (right)


I'm not so convinced about the tweaks to the red channel, but then I'm a complete sucker for big, purpley reds!!

The blue channel tweaks I like though, they make the picture more calm I think!

I just had a little play and for me, YMMV something about here


View attachment 321697


looks quite nice

The problem with all of this is that one size doesn't fit all!

Good work Adam, I’ll give those settings a try when I’m on my machine next. :)
 
I really like the m10. The iso being better than the 240 (which was quite bad for low light) is useful.
I wasn't feeling it for the tp52, so shot a few through the 105mm macro (which eats light) at iso 10k. I fould that I couldn't boost the exposure up as much as the noise becomes really present fast...






And a 28mm iso 320 I think shot...



---


For the comparison between 240 and m10, the slimmer m10 does still feel heavy, but lighter than the m10. also more comfortable.
handling is pretty much the same, less buttons on the m10.
ISO knob and on/off simplified.
Battery is slimmer and less, so with evf I get around 200-300 shots. Probably higher without the evf, but I like to use lenses that need it. And as an added bonus there is the peek which can be placed. Via viewfinder the white box is always central...
Also, evf is much better for low down (macro) work or taking shots of the ceillings (churchs). :)

If( no when!) a lotto win comes in, then I'll get the m10p as the more quiet the better... :)
 
Hi, ... (M9 - LEITZ Elmar f = 9cm ; 1 : 4 ). The Elmar looks rather quaint. It was constructed by engineers, according to the motto function dictates form.

One could say, it was a completely designer-free design :


90mm-Elmar-DSC01082-a7-3-s35-c.jpg



90mm-Elmar-DSC01084.jpg



Extremely accurate focusing ring beyond 10 m :

90mm-Elmar-DSC01084-c.jpg
 
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If( no when!) a lotto win comes in, then I'll get the m10p as the more quiet the better... :)

I'm super happy with my M10-P I have to say...... when my lottery numbers come up, I'll be looking at an MP film camera! :giggle:
 
I read a statistic this morning that over 90% of Leica users use one lens on their camera. I think the 35mm Summicron ASPH is my one lens for life.
I'm in the ten percent then ...
1) not got a decent leica lens
2) using the other branded lenses as and when I want to... although I do have a tendency to pick two lenses and go for a walk....
 
I'm in the ten percent then ...
,,,or not, as the case may be. Whoever came up with that number probably divided the number of Leica lenses sold by the number of Leica cameras sold. It's a reasonable bet that lots of Leica owners have lenses made by other manufacturers.

As an example, this was exposed in a Leica through a Soviet Jupiter 12 lens...

Holborn viaduct statue London Leica M3 32.jpg
 
I have 7 M mount lenses (!! not sure how that happened actually) but only 3 are Leica

I often reach past the best one on the shelf to pick one that better suits what I want that day (eg planar over the Summilux, ‘cos it’s easier to focus and lighter)

I do tend to split my time fairly equally between 35 and 50 though
 
Hi, I have (currently) 31 M mount lenses, of around 90 ... Strictly speaking, I am not hopelessly under-equipped ---

Mostly, I take a lens depending on the subjects. But I also follow my whims ...

Lenses longer than 50mm I take not often on the M9.
 
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Hi, in Schwelm/D ... (M9 - Summarit 2,5/35 f 4) :



L1024578_DxO-L35s-4-c.jpg



L1024578_DxO-L35s-4-cc.jpg



The IQ of the crop is quite O.K., I would say. I set contrast at +50%, microcontrast at +100% in DxO.

Taking pics like this with an MF camera is not much fun ... Normally, I use my NIKON D800 for this. On the other hand, I do not like carrying and handling the D800 ...
 
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Hi, ... (M9 - VOIGTLÄNDER Apo-Lanthar 2/50 f 2):



L1006040_DxO-v50-2-f.jpg



"Wildlife" crops ... :


L1006040_DxO-v50-2-c.jpg



L1006041_DxO-v50-2-c.jpg



L1006042_DxO-v50-2-c.jpg



L1006043_DxO-v50-2-c.jpg



L1006046_DxO-v50-2-c.jpg


(It can be done with an MF lens, and the patience of a Saint (and setting contrast at 50%, microcontrast at 100% in DxO) ... --- )
 
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