Nikon D800 & Canon 70D LiveView sample test

Thanks for pointing this out and you are right not taken on same camera noted and well spotted and will post links next time.
 
sk66 said:
I agree the test is flawed, but I don't totally agree with the rest.

The cropping of the D800 would work as a pretty fair comparison if the 70D was a 13MP camera.... But it's not, so the 70D has a ~9MP advantage in the cropped view. And the images would print at different sizes.
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Which is why the 70D appears sharper, and why he, and others think it's sharper :) They're effectively comparing the 70D against the D800 in crop mode as the 70D is using 1.6X magnification, and the D800 1.0X magnification. The only thing the test shows, is that the 70D is a better APS-C camera than the D800..... which would be great if the D800 was a APS-C camera :)


sk66 said:
You could use different FL's *and* downsample the larger file to the same file size in order to see how they would compare at the same display size...
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You mean like I did in the test in the other thread I linked to? I'm afraid when down sampled to the same size, the full frame camera still appeared sharper.



sk66 said:
And f/8 isn't ideal for either camera in that it is limiting the maximum detail resolution the sensor is otherwise capable of (actually more for the 70D). F/4 should have been plenty sharp for a 50mm prime and would/should have been better for both (I wouldn't expect the MTF to fall off at f/4 for 50mm primes, but I don't know the lenses specifically or how they compare to each other; and I'm too lazy to go look it up).
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Both those primes deliver maximum MTF at f4, yes. Irrelevant though... both tests used f8, so as a comparative test... still a like for like comparison even if neither lens was using the optimum aperture.


n0chex said:
MTF Values below and the Nikon out performs on paper the canon in every department.
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Those are MTF figures for the lens ON THE CAMERA :) as Hoppy states. Here are some figures for the same lenses using similar cameras (D3X and 5D MkII).

74gCBW1.jpg

dQEPdxr.jpg


Less than 200 lines res between them, which is not really something that's visible, unless using a lens resolution chart.

What you did was compare the MTF figures of the Nikkor on a full frame camera, and the MTF of the canon lens on a APS-C camera. :) Of course the Nikkor would result in higher MTF.. it's on a higher resolution camera!

sk66 said:
I've used tape to secure the mirror in the up position for Nikon Live-view use... Otherwise I come out of it and go to M-UP. Stupid Nikons...
I'm not taking any responsibility for the tape thing, just sharing a trick.
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Why would you need to tape the mirror up? LOL.. once you've focused manually, just come out of live view and use the optical viewfinder.. especially if it's dark. Also... why are you doing the whole thing... focusing, metering and shooting in Live view? You do realise when in Live view it uses a different (and far less sophisticated) metering system when the mirror is up don't you?? What on earth are you shooting in Live view mode for? LOL The only time I've ever actually pressed the shutter in live view is when I'm holding the camera in a position I can't use the viewfinder in at all. It drastically reduces your metering options, kills batteries and if it's dark, will present a noisy, grainy display. Get in there, check focusing, then get the hell out.

n0chex said:
Pookeyhead your final comment is appreciated and your explanation and love the picture and the way you explained how it was taken and would you have the same outcome if you took the picture in Live View mode or do you come out of that mode to stop mirror shake or alike..
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Thanks.

I came out of live view to check/frame the shot, because even in dark conditions, nothing beats an optical finder when you have a fast lens on the front. All cameras in dark conditions will present a very dark, and noisy live view.. all of them.. even Canons :). Also... with the mirror up, you've compromised the metering system. I'll quote Nikon here... "In viewfinder photography, exposure is measured from light falling not on the image sensor but on a dedicated metering sensor, which may produce results that differ from those obtained during live view." For different, read more accurate :) Basically... you've gimped your meter if you need smething more sophisticated than simple evaluative metering. Also... working exclusively in live view kills batteries like you wouldn't believe.. more so when it's cold... which is what you do not want when you're a 2 hour hike from the nearest power point, or shop. Any sensible landscape photographer would use live view to quickly check manual focus, then get the hell out of there.

The above image was using live view just to confirm focus by zooming in all the way and manually focusing on whatever was still visible in the area I wanted to be sharp. If it's too dark, then it's too dark... tough... which applies to ALL cameras with live view. When that happens, you fall back on your skill as a photographer, and focus hyperfocally. I then came out of live view and used mirror lock up to take the shot. If I had stayed in live view, the image wouldn't have been any different in terms of sharpness, but I would have probably killed my battery before I'd finished shooting everything I needed that evening. It would have also been incredibly difficult to exactly frame the shot in live view as it was so dark. Your eyes and a good optical viewfinder still win over live view when it's dark. Live view was just used to confirm focus (which is possible if there's something bright enough in the part of the frame you need sharp focus at.... otherwise live view will be useless.. on all cameras).

Working totally in live view is fine if you're a 12 year old kid with a red D3200 at a Beiber concert :).... but it's not really something someone would be doing if they want to make the most of their equipment in difficult conditions. :)

Reading this thread, anyone would think people couldn't take sharp images in dark conditions before we had live view :)
 
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simonkit said:
Very underrated IMHO, I find it invaluable for tripod mounted focusing for landscapes using selective focus point, saves the "recompose" focus method via the viewfinder. Live View focusing is more accurate than the phase detection of the viewfinder too.. a few other reasons it's useful although some more useful than others, and the manual focus one not really too relevant to the D800 as we've mentioned above ;-)

http://www.digitalcameraworld.com/2012/06/19/10-ways-live-view-trumps-your-viewfinder/
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Thanks this was helpful!
 
Pookeyhead said:
You mean like I did in the test in the other thread I linked to? I'm afraid when down sampled to the same size, the full frame camera still appeared sharper.





Both those primes deliver maximum MTF at f4, yes. Irrelevant though... both tests used f8, so as a comparative test... still a like for like comparison even if neither lens was using the optimum aperture.
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Yes like in your example... I believe I mentioned that.

One thing that get's overlooked is pixel size relative to "projected dot" size. Every aperture projects a circle onto the sensor of a fixed size for a point light source; smaller apertures project larger circles, and an image is nothing but a bunch of projected point light sources.
It's akin to photographing a checkerboard....no matter how many pixels you use to record it it will still only be a checkerboard. To record the maximum detail the squares of the checkerboard (the projected points of light) must be no larger than the size of the pixels recording them. Otherwise detail is being lost because multiple pixels are being used to record one projected point of light. This is not the same as diffraction limiting sharpness, but that is the ultimate result if the projected circles get too large. (because perceived sharpness has as much or more to due with contrast than actual detail)

F/4 would not have limited either camera, f/8 was limiting both. (to something like 16MP for the 70D and 30MP for the D800 in the primary yellow/green spectrum giving the D800 the advantage)

For most of us, most of the time DOF/Lens MTF requirements supersede the need/ability to record the maximum detail. That's part of what makes high MP sensors less beneficial than one might first think.
 
Thanks for all the replies and I have had chance today to do another comparison with both cameras being full frame same focal length 50mm
Both 100% crop and not sure why the Nikon image is larger than the canons as both was shot with the same focal range 50mm and both 100% crop.

Canon 6D
1/5 sec
f8.0
ISO 100
50mm 1.4

Nikon D800
1/13 sec
f8.0
ISO 100
50mm 1.4

 
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What exactly are you aiming to prove with this, it's hardly accurate is it with the 6D being a totally different exposure to the D800 hardly what you'd consider a controlled test is it?
 
Hi MWHCVT I am not trying to prove anything just trying to educate myself between different cameras and Yes a slightly different exposure and it is not a controlled test as such I don't have that much experience more of a Novice being honest.

I am just curious why the canon looks much sharper to my eyes than the D800 and yes the exposure is a little different and if it was the same exposure would the Nikon look sharper and more detailed ?

If you are saying the exposure would cause this then I will take your advise , both pictures was taken from a benro MK1 tripod MF again.
 
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PS: Some of your night shots are stunning mate and I think it was some of your wirewool shots that got me into photography a while ago.
 
n0chex said:
PS: Some of your night shots are stunning mate and I think it was some of your wirewool shots that got me into photography a while ago.
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Very kind of you to say that, I always find it incredible humbling whenever anyone is inspired by my photography :)

I can see what your looking at trying to determine what is going to give the best results for you from a camera, but in reality the first thing to consider is not so much the camera but what your going to be using the camera for if your looking at night time stuff which seem to have been what was mentioned earlier while a lot of what I do is a lower ISO say up to 800 which realistically most bodies from the last few years to current models should be able to come with well enough, my 450D handles ISO800 sufficiently for me to be happy with using it, but for stars and stuff like that you want a body that handles high ISO really well, so your looking as what you can afford vs ISO performance I'm more than happy to use my 5D3 and Darrells (thedodo) 6D at ISO5000 without too much concern
 
n0chex said:
...just trying to educate myself between different cameras <snip>
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What you've been looking at so far are different ways to treat the raw data.

The jpegs you've presented doesn't show justice to what is stored in raw files... I would take a closer look at your default jpeg settings.
 
Credit where it's deserved Mathew.
 
Jan K. said:
What you've been looking at so far are different ways to treat the raw data.

The jpegs you've presented doesn't show justice to what is stored in raw files... I would take a closer look at your default jpeg settings.
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The picture above is indeed a Jpeg file for uploading ease to the forum here are the Raw Images straight from the 2 cameras no processing.

Nikon D800 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14754197/_DSC0003.NEF
Canon 6D https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14754197/_MG_0002.CR2
 
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n0chex said:
The picture above is indeed a Jpeg file for uploading ease to the forum here are the Raw Images straight from the 2 cameras no processing.

Canon 6D https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14754197/_DSC0003.NEF
Nikon D800 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14754197/_MG_0002.CR2
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Got the files the wrong way round ;)

The reason the D800 image appears to have a larger fov is because you have cropped it at 100 % before downsizing it to the same size as the Canon image. The D800 image is 7360 x 4912 pixels where the 6D is 5472 x 3648 ... if you downsize the D800 to the same dimensions then the images will have the same fov near as damn is to swearing. The D800 image is underexposed which will also make it look less sharp.
 
Whoops will sort that now and thanks for pointing that out for me.

Regards the image size difference again thanks for that info and makes sense but would the image not loose quality and sharpness if downsized.
 
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n0chex said:
Whoops will sort that now and thanks for pointing that out for me.

Regards the image size difference again thanks for that info and makes sense but would the image not loose quality and sharpness if downsized.
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Not really. The biggest problem in the two images is the underexposure. I've pulled both down, imported into LR, tweaked the exposure and colour temp a little and exported to PS as 16 bit PSD - then down sampled the D800 to the same size as the 6D cropped a 600 pixel x 600 pixel square from each and saved for web @ high quality ... not scientific at all but shows that in terms of sharpness the problem with your test is the exposure, there is little to choose between the two imo, there is a colour rendition difference.

NOT-MINE-D800 by PabloRosso, on Flickr


NOT-MINE-6D by PabloRosso, on Flickr
 
Very happy so far with the Canon 6D Simon and I am waiting on the sellers return from New Year holiday and it is being ordered and can't wait to get it , not saying I am going to start to take brilliant pictures :)
 
n0chex said:
Very happy so far with the Canon 6D Simon and I am waiting on the sellers return from New Year holiday and it is being ordered and can't wait to get it , not saying I am going to start to take brilliant pictures :)
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I'm sure it's a great camera.. there's really not a bad one anymore, looking forward to seeing you putting it to good use
 
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