New modern car advancements ,likes and dislikes.

[nilagin]

They would need traffic lights, slowing everybody down and they'd all have to drive considerately. Which we know they won't. Manually operated cars cause a lot of deaths. And a big reason to change the current nonsense.

one bus carries 30 to 50 people. Removing 30 to 50 cars from the roads.. A car with just one person in it, is the cause of a lot congestion. It's not difficult.


It's already there. It's accepted and even liked. Pedestrian zones and ring roads are everywhere and examples of segregation.

But choose gridlock, accidents, delays, stress, and pollution in cities if you can't accept change.

Some automated cars haven't got a very good track record so far as far as accidents are concerned and there are far fewer of them compared to driven cars so it's stacked in the favour of driven cars at the moment.

That one bus has to stop every few hundred yards or so for it's entire journey, where as cars on the most part don't. I can only think of one ring road (M25) with no pedestrian access. The others I have encountered still have pedestrian crossings at traffic lights.

 

[ianp5a]

Per km driven, the autonomous cars, so far, are much, much safer than conventional cars.

 

[dejongj]

There are surely carriageways, tunnels and flyovers where it is illegal for pedestrians to do that.

It's sure is. Doesn't mean they don't go there. Just like pedestrians musnt wallk in a normal road. And you suggested that they cant in plenty of cities.

But even so, what is the point if only a small flyover or a singular tunnel allows for that. The moment you come out or off there is all those other road users again.

 

[dejongj]

Per km driven, the autonomous cars, so far, are much, much safer than conventional cars.

Yes because they bloody well stop all the time

I ask YOU again. Have YOU actually driven a vehicle with this kind of system on it in a build up area?

 

[wyx087]

How does an autonomous car leave this outside lane, when the other lanes are being used by manually driven cars and their proximity and speed, prevent it from leaving.

They'd do the same as how Tesla autopilot changes lanes: with sensors.

Yes because they bloody well stop all the time

I ask YOU again. Have YOU actually driven a vehicle with this kind of system on it in a build up area?

The technology in current cars isn't good enough to support autonomous driving in built-up areas. LIDAR or something similar is needed.

Here's an idea for the transition phase: Augmented Reality HUD! The driver still has full liability. The car drives autonomously in any area and throws up a wireframe on everything it detects on the windscreen, creating an AR screen. The driver can then make split second decision whether to take back control or not by monitoring what has the car's detected objects. Basically how Tesla autopilot does it but easier to monitor and harder to miss.

All accidents involving autonomous vehicles so far has been due to the human driver not paying attention and the technology wasn't ready in that specific use-case.

 

[dejongj]

They'd do the same as how Tesla autopilot changes lanes: with sensors.



The technology in current cars isn't good enough to support autonomous driving in built-up areas. LIDAR or something similar is needed.

Here's an idea for the transition phase: Augmented Reality HUD! The driver still has full liability. The car drives autonomously in any area and throws up a wireframe on everything it detects on the windscreen, creating an AR screen. The driver can then make split second decision whether to take back control or not by monitoring what has the car's detected objects. Basically how Tesla autopilot does it but easier to monitor and harder to miss.

All accidents involving autonomous vehicles so far has been due to the human driver not paying attention and the technology wasn't ready in that specific use-case.

Actually the system in my Golf R is LIDAR based And it is really really good, hence I know how bloody irritating it is when using it in town. A typical journey for me to Westminster/Vauxhall was:
Country lanes - No way fully automatic, car is in full manual mode as it is much more fun.
A5 - Gearbox to automatic, but manual distance control
M1 - Get up to speed manually with gears in automatic, but then switch to front assist and automatic distance control. Nice and relaxed journey to the North Circular
A406 -> A41 - Manual distance control
A41 to center all manual

I tried, but the distance to the car in front is too big, that invites other cars weaving in an out, the moment they do that the vehicle will brake and another one jumps in. And then you have the motorbikes weaving in and out, sometimes causing a very abrubt halt as they appear from nowhere. And then the bicycles, they are the most annoying they get so close to the various sensors that I just switch the parking system off as well because the beeping and visual indication are a pain. And then there are the pedestrians who just walk off the curb where ever they like and again the car will break instead of hitting the horn

And when we had a Murano and a Prius the problems only got compounded by having a very silent car on the road, so even more that just walk out.

 

[wyx087]

See, that's an example of the technology isn't ready. Perhaps hardware is in place, but the software clearly isn't up to the standards. It's a classic tick box selling point, a feature that only works in a very specific use-case.

Another reason why I want a Tesla: over the air updates. Your Golf R may already have the capable hardware, just need to update software to handle those situations. But traditional auto makers are stuck in their old ways: the car you bought is the same car you'll drive 3 years later. But in actual fact the software has massive room to improve. Just like Canon/Nikon vs Fujifilm, constant software upgrade, security patches and feature addition should be standard for all software driven objects.

 

[dejongj]

See, that's an example of the technology isn't ready. Perhaps hardware is in place, but the software clearly isn't up to the standards. It's a classic tick box selling point, a feature that only works in a very specific use-case.

Another reason why I want a Tesla: over the air updates. Your Golf R may already have the capable hardware, just need to update software to handle those situations. But traditional auto makers are stuck in their old ways: the car you bought is the same car you'll drive 3 years later. But in actual fact the software has massive room to improve. Just like Canon/Nikon vs Fujifilm, constant software upgrade, security patches and feature addition should be standard for all software driven objects.

Hmmm whilst I get what you are suggesting, I think the wide open roads in the US are very different than the narrow crowded streets of London. I can totally see this work and cross the chasm but a lot unrelated to the technology has to change. LOL Just take a look at pedestrian crossings. A great example is the one north over Oxford Street by Selfridges. Pedestrians keep on ignoring the lights, if you don't barge through there you'll be stuck with the wrath of taxi drivers up your backside. The technology is fine once the people are removed The technology is also fine when people stick to the rules. Heck most traffic situations would be there if people stick to the rules.

But people are people. I look forward to all these automatic vehicles as a pedestrian. I mean you can just walk out everywhere, no need to wait for the lights, they will all stop. It'll be like Moses opening the sea.

 

[OldCarlos]

How does an autonomous car leave this outside lane, when the other lanes are being used by manually driven cars and their proximity and speed, prevent it from leaving.

They'd do the same as how Tesla autopilot changes lanes: with sensors.

How would it work though?

If, as you suggest, there are small gaps in the continuous lane/kerbing for these auto cars to filter back in left, to the manual lanes, I presume they'd have to come to a halt if there was moving traffic on their inside?
Also, given that lots of folk these days don't even like being overtaken at all & even lane-hop when traffic is slow moving, I can imagine lots of drivers purposely driving at the same speed alongside this auto lane to stop those vehicles moving back in. (a good game to combat boredom. )

It simply wouldn't work with any kind of physical barrier.

 

[dejongj]

How would it work though?

If, as you suggest, there are small gaps in the continuous lane/kerbing for these auto cars to filter back in left, to the manual lanes, I presume they'd have to come to a halt if there was moving traffic on their inside?
Also, given that lots of folk these days don't even like being overtaken at all & even lane-hop when traffic is slow moving, I can imagine lots of drivers purposely driving at the same speed alongside this auto lane to stop those vehicles moving back in. (a good game to combat boredom. )

It simply wouldn't work with any kind of physical barrier.

It is funny that isn't it, there is this real cultural issue in the UK to make certain someone doesn't overtake or gets in the gap before you. Zipping is still a rare phenomena. Perhaps it is in my mind but the UK seems to be much worse than other European countries. People seem so uptight and righteous when they get on the road.

 

[OldCarlos]

It is funny that isn't it, there is this real cultural issue in the UK to make certain someone doesn't overtake or gets in the gap before you. Zipping is still a rare phenomena. Perhaps it is in my mind but the UK seems to be much worse than other European countries. People seem so uptight and righteous when they get on the road.

It's almost as though most drivers view everyone else as being on the same single journey/destination as themselves, rather than realising there isn't a front or back of a queue.

I guess there are just too many vehicles on our roads & too many people in general.

 

[Alastair]

Zipping is still a rare phenomena.

^ that

UK drivers really like to create extra congestion. Zipping works generally brilliantly in Germany, you'll find every lane in full use on approach to a lane reduction and vehicles zippering into a steady flow right at very end of the full-lane section. This keeps all lanes moving smoothly and reduces the overall length of any taiback - potentially keeping the junction behind clear and working normally. Drive down the M11 (north of Stansted) and any hint of a hold-up and everyone's into the fast lane and tailing back a mile, and staring at anyone that cruises past them at 60 in the empty slow lane with a "Dammed if I'm going to let you in down the road" stare.

The Dutch also do zippering very well, but they're generally attitude towards making a hole between you and the car in front when they want to come across whether there's a gap or not and regardless of the speeds everyone is doing is something it always takes me a while to get used to on continental runs.

 

[dejongj]

^ that

UK drivers really like to create extra congestion. Zipping works generally brilliantly in Germany, you'll find every lane in full use on approach to a lane reduction and vehicles zippering into a steady flow right at very end of the full-lane section. This keeps all lanes moving smoothly and reduces the overall length of any taiback - potentially keeping the junction behind clear and working normally. Drive down the M11 (north of Stansted) and any hint of a hold-up and everyone's into the fast lane and tailing back a mile, and staring at anyone that cruises past them at 60 in the empty slow lane with a "Dammed if I'm going to let you in down the road" stare.

The Dutch also do zippering very well, but they're generally attitude towards making a hole between you and the car in front when they want to come across whether there's a gap or not and regardless of the speeds everyone is doing is something it always takes me a while to get used to on continental runs.

hehehe Yes I think my wife is still not used at me doing that Sorry ...

 

[ianp5a]

I ask YOU again. Have YOU actually driven a vehicle with this kind of system on it in a build up area?

No. I don't need to have. As I said, I was specifically talking about the future. When roads in "congested cities" are specifically designed for these systems.

 

[dejongj]

No. I don't need to have. As I said, I was specifically talking about the future. When roads in "congested cities" are specifically designed for these systems.

Ah ok a future scenario then. Cool yes in such an imaginary scenario anything can work as one can just make it up No argument from me there.

 

[ianp5a]

Luckily the people that design these solutions are capable of imagining scenarios that they have never seen. We know that congestion will get worse. And that people will look for solutions and that things will change.

 

[dejongj]

Luckily the people that design these solutions are capable of imagining scenarios that they have never seen. We know that congestion will get worse. And that people will look for solutions and that things will change.

Consider how slow town planners work, and how slow the technology adaption rate is for vehicle, it will be a long way off. Just try it yourself, the current systems deal perfectly well with pedestrians and cyclists. They stop in time for them, no problem at all. When you recognise a Golf R in Germany (there should be a fair few) try it, and walk in front of it

 

[wyx087]

I can totally see this work and cross the chasm but a lot unrelated to the technology has to change.

Exactly. There's more to it than technology. As I've said many times, technology is there for motorway and almost there for others, probably just a few more software tuning is needed.

But how would you feel if your 2 year old car is no longer allowed on a stretch of road because it's for autonomous vehicles only, when all it is missing is a software update. But VW won't do the upgrade, instead they want to sell you a new car? This isn't how modern software driven world works.

New iPhone for example, if the hardware is capable (eg. 3D touch), then 6s will get EXACTLY same feature upgrade as 7. Same with Fujifilm X-E2 getting same AF upgrade as X-T1.

How would it work though?

If, as you suggest, there are small gaps in the continuous lane/kerbing for these auto cars to filter back in left, to the manual lanes, I presume they'd have to come to a halt if there was moving traffic on their inside?
Also, given that lots of folk these days don't even like being overtaken at all & even lane-hop when traffic is slow moving, I can imagine lots of drivers purposely driving at the same speed alongside this auto lane to stop those vehicles moving back in. (a good game to combat boredom. )

There ought to be more than 1 entry/exit gap.

Again, we see human driver messing this up. If only we could get less of them......

 

[dejongj]

Exactly. There's more to it than technology. As I've said many times, technology is there for motorway and almost there for others, probably just a few more software tuning is needed.

But how would you feel if your 2 year old car is no longer allowed on a stretch of road because it's for autonomous vehicles only, when all it is missing is a software update. But VW won't do the upgrade, instead they want to sell you a new car? This isn't how modern software driven world works.

In my case I'll do the upgrade myself


In other countries I've experienced this already, for example with things like Carpool lanes. People get inventive and put sex dolls in the car and all sorts. I'm sure we'll see lots of people trying to bypass the rules. That is in our DNA afterall

 

[OldCarlos]

There ought to be more than 1 entry/exit gap.

Obviously. But my argument still stands. How will these auto vehicles exit their lane if there are vehicles on their nearside?
+ even getting across 2, 3 or 4 lanes of traffic to enter a designated lane, as you describe, would be near impossible at times.

 

[ianp5a]

Consider how slow town planners work, and how slow the technology adaption rate is for vehicle, it will be a long way off.

Maybe. It'll also be held back by some people resisting change. I never took a guess on how long it will take. But the pressure to solve the problems is there.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

But how would you feel if your 2 year old car is no longer allowed on a stretch of road because it's for autonomous vehicles only, when all it is missing is a software update. But VW won't do the upgrade, instead they want to sell you a new car? This isn't how modern software driven world works.

New iPhone for example, if the hardware is capable (eg. 3D touch), then 6s will get EXACTLY same feature upgrade as 7. Same with Fujifilm X-E2 getting same AF upgrade as X-T1.

Siri was an app on the iPhone, until Apple bought the company, bricked the app and told everyone if they wanted Siri they had to buy the next iPhone, and everyone did...

 

[ianp5a]

Yes. It's important not to let commercial companies define quasi-standards. Fortunately, Wifi, email, and GSM didn't get grabbed first. Worldwide open standards need to be set, so different cities don't require different traffic control systems in your car.

 

[nilagin]

Per km driven, the autonomous cars, so far, are much, much safer than conventional cars.

There are millions of cars on the roads, the number of accidents is very small compared to that number. So with just the few accidents involving the very few autonomous cars in comparison, statistically means they currently have a worse track record than conventional cars.

 

[nilagin]

Luckily the people that design these solutions are capable of imagining scenarios that they have never seen. We know that congestion will get worse. And that people will look for solutions and that things will change.

But a lot of the measures currently thought up to ease congestion actually make it worse. Consider a busy roundabout, very few gaps for cars to join the roundabout, so they install traffic lights stopping or allowing cars from entering the roundabout, that is all that is needed allowing each road in turn to enter the roundabout, but no some numpty came up with the crazy idea of installing traffic lights on the actual roundabout, depending on which exit you require and the number of exits you then have to stop several times on the roundabout, hindering traffic flow, wasting fuel and increasing emissions.
In our town several years ago they fitted sensors to the traffic lights at the main crossroad in the high street. The lights would cycle normally but if they registered no cars at a certain junction but a car waiting or even approaching another, the lights would change allowing the traffic to go rather to sit there waiting for a traffic light currently showing green to an empty road. This worked brilliantly, kept static traffic to a minimum, again saving fuel and reducing emissions. Yet they decided to remove the sensors and now we are back to having to wait our turn whilst an empty road has a green light.

 

[nilagin]

Consider how slow town planners work, and how slow the technology adaption rate is for vehicle, it will be a long way off. Just try it yourself, the current systems deal perfectly well with pedestrians and cyclists. They stop in time for them, no problem at all. When you recognise a Golf R in Germany (there should be a fair few) try it, and walk in front of it

Ford reckon they will be selling fully autonomous vehicles by 2020, not that far off.

 

[ianp5a]

so they install traffic lights .

Yes. Traffic lights can be a pain. Especially timed ones with no sensors or off peak modes.

 

[dejongj]

Ford reckon they will be selling fully autonomous vehicles by 2020, not that far off.

Oh yes, many manufacturers are busy with that. Heck Uber is doing trials at the moment with Volvo XC90s that are fully autonomous. I'm not doubting the technology one bit I just hope it can be made assertive enough to deal with human beings driving, walking and cycling

 

[afasoas]

There are millions of cars on the roads, the number of accidents is very small compared to that number. So with just the few accidents involving the very few autonomous cars in comparison, statistically means they currently have a worse track record than conventional cars.

This is b*****ks.
There are still at least 5 people killed on the roads each day in the UK. Many many more experience life changing injuries.

BTW, did you know per mile travelled, you are more likely to suffer a severe head injury as a passenger in a car than you riding a bike?
Oh yeah, bikes. Perfect transportation for the able bodied in town and cities. Very efficient use of road space too.

 

[nilagin]

This is b*****ks.
There are still at least 5 people killed on the roads each day in the UK. Many many more experience life changing injuries.

BTW, did you know per mile travelled, you are more likely to suffer a severe head injury as a passenger in a car than you riding a bike?
Oh yeah, bikes. Perfect transportation for the able bodied in town and cities. Very efficient use of road space too.

Mind you don't hurt yourself getting off your high horse. No one mentioned deaths or injuries, I'm talking about accidents. There are over 25.8 Million registered cars in the UK (2015, 3rd quarter figures). I should imagine there is a lot less than 10,000 Autonomous vehicles in use so far and with the number of accidents that Google alone have admitted to let alone those they haven't and the recent death in a Tesla, the statistics suggest that Autonomous have the worst track record based on number of cars.
The reason you are more likely to have a head injury as a car passenger than whilst riding a bike is because there are more car passengers than there are cyclists.

 

[dejongj]

Mind you don't hurt yourself getting off your high horse. No one mentioned deaths or injuries, I'm talking about accidents. There are over 25.8 Million registered cars in the UK (2015, 3rd quarter figures). I should imagine there is a lot less than 10,000 Autonomous vehicles in use so far and with the number of accidents that Google alone have admitted to let alone those they haven't and the recent death in a Tesla, the statistics suggest that Autonomous have the worst track record based on number of cars.
The reason you are more likely to have a head injury as a car passenger than whilst riding a bike is because there are more car passengers than there are cyclists.

And car passenger don't wear cycling helmets, and have to make sudden stops for those pesky self righteous clad in black traffic light ignoring danger seek cyclists.

 

[ianp5a]

I'm not saying it is, but don't let this become a cyclists v motorist debate. There are equal percentages of idiots operating both types of vehicle.

The difference is that one is much more dangerous than the other. And road systems prioritise motor vehicles.

 

[dejongj]

I'm not saying it is, but don't let this become a cyclists v motorist debate. There are equal percentages of idiots operating both types of vehicle.

The difference is that one is much more dangerous than the other. And road systems prioritise motor vehicles.

I agree, my apologies. Afasoad is just hellbend on derailing and removing all the fun. Not just this thread but several others as well. I should not have risen to it. Sorry.

 

[afasoas]

The reason you are more likely to have a head injury as a car passenger than whilst riding a bike is because there are more car passengers than there are cyclists.

The statistics are adjusted to take into account the distance travelled - that's not true at all.

I agree, my apologies. Afasoad is just hellbend on derailing and removing all the fun. Not just this thread but several others as well. I should not have risen to it. Sorry.

It's a serious topic. My opinions have been relevant to all three threads I've posted to in the last 24 hours, only upon two of which could I be accuse of 'removing all the fun'.

Autonomous cars, built with sufficient sensors and rigorous testing will no doubt be safer in most situations then human drivers. Probably a lot more predictable than motorists too, which could potentially make them easier for vulnerable road users (cyclist, pedestrians, equestrians, mobility scooter users and motorcyclists) to deal with.

My real concern is that our road networks are already IMHO heavily congested. In essence, I'm concerned that autonomous cars will add to congestion - particularly as there will be no driver so it's possible no driving license will be needed to use one.
Across town, cycling makes a lot of sense as an alternative mode of transport and at least for urban journeys, solves problems that autonomous cars by themselves can't.

For all road users, I think more training and better traffic enforcement are required.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

I think autonomous cars will be akin to winter tyres, safer if a majority is using them, but potentially more likely to be in an accident if only you are.

 

[dejongj]

I think autonomous cars will be akin to winter tyres, safer if a majority is using them, but potentially more likely to be in an accident if only you are.

Interesting point as I agree, yet I still employ winter tyres when the conditions require them.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Interesting point as I agree, yet I still employ winter tyres when the conditions require them.

Which is probably a sensible thing to do, just have to hope the person behind you isn't tailgating with the assumption that your braking will be as bad as his

 

[dejongj]

Which is probably a sensible thing to do, just have to hope the person behind you isn't tailgating with the assumption that your braking will be as bad as his

To be fair in conditions that would require the use of winter tyres I rarely actually brake with the brakes. I think both parties can help to avoid situations like that.

 

[Cobra]

I think both parties can help to avoid situations like that.

Yeah, you fit a hefty tow bar to the rear

 

[Alastair]

I think autonomous cars will be akin to winter tyres, safer if a majority is using them, but potentially more likely to be in an accident if only you are.

Speaking of winter tyres, the Michelin Crossclimate are looking candidates for the next set rubber I put on a car. Get good reviews, and no messing about if we decide to take the ferry for a trip to Germany in that grey area period where winter tyres are legally required when the conditions warrant.