NASCAR'S Tony Stewart allegedly kills fellow racer

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Ricardodaforce

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Just read about this terrible incident in a sprint car race. A tragic case of the results of red mist.
To put it in perspective, Tony Stewart is hugely successful and well known in American motor racing.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
Just read about this terrible incident in a sprint car race. A tragic case of the results of red mist.
To put it in perspective, Tony Stewart is hugely successful and well known in American motor racing.
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No evidence at this point that this is the case.
QUOTE: But the sheriff of Ontario County, Philip Povero, said the investigation into the incident was not criminal. Stewart was questioned and released. UNQUOTE

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/aug/10/nascar-crash-tony-stewart
 
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From what I have read, there was an earlier incident, and the deceased got out of his car and walked onto the track whilst a race was going on. It was a dirt track, the deceased was wearing black suit and black helmet, and the conditions were dark. A few other cars avoided him, but it seems as though he was hit by the rear quarter of the car which hit him, suggesting that the car had tried to avoid him.
Of course I wasn't there, but I find it hard to believe that anyone would run another competitor over.
 
Don't you think it would be fairer and more accurate to put the thread title into the passive voice?

FWIW, I used to know a lot of professional racing drivers some of whom had, shall we say, avant garde views on the sanctitiy of their rivals' lives but to imply that this was anything other than a horrible accident is sensationism of the worst sort.
 
Yves Geza said:
Don't you think it would be fairer and more accurate to put the thread title into the passive voice?

FWIW, I used to know a lot of professional racing drivers some of whom had, shall we say, avant garde views on the sanctitiy of their rivals' lives but to imply that this was anything other than a horrible accident is sensationism of the worst sort.
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Indeed on every point (have now made the title slightly more legal friendly).
 
have not watched the links, howver from what I read... american ,ale race car driver.... "somehow" wanders onto a nascar track (which is on sand?
0
) gets hit at silly mph and is no longer. Yet another example of Darwin at work.
 
There is no allegedly about it. Tony Stewart did kill him. The question for the authorities is was it an accident or was there any intent.

I heard about the story on the Eurosport iPad app where the title is "Nascar campion hits and kills fellow driver".

Probably the best, most comprehensive coverage of events is to be found on Motorsport.com.
Allegedly.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
There is no allegedly about it. Tony Stewart did kill him. The question for the authorities is was it an accident or was there any intent.

I heard about the story on the Eurosport iPad app where the title is "Nascar campion hits and kills fellow driver".

Probably the best, most comprehensive coverage of events is to be found on Motorsport.com.
Allegedly.
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You are speaking from an orifice other than your mouth.
He was killed by a car which Tony Stewart was at the control of. Killing him implies personal intent.
Do you work for the Daily Mail?
 
viv1969 said:
You are speaking from an orifice other than your mouth.
He was killed by a car which Tony Stewart was at the control of. Killing him implies personal intent.
Do you work for the Daily Mail?
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Edit.....and adding allegedly at the end of the post doesn't make you look any less silly.
 
viv1969 said:
You are speaking from an orifice other than your mouth.
He was killed by a car which Tony Stewart was at the control of. Killing him implies personal intent.
Do you work for the Daily Mail?
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No need to be abusive. I don't know if there was intent. Nor do you. The authorities will decide that. Strange that folk have to be so so arsey eh!
 
Ricardodaforce said:
No need to be abusive. I don't know if there was intent. Nor do you. The authorities will decide that. Strange that folk have to be so so arsey eh!
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Stating that one person killed another person is to indicate personal intent to do so.
You....or anyone else at this point apparently, have no basis to do so.
You opening post was wrong in its wording. The fact that you can't admit that is your own shortfall.
 
viv1969 said:
Stating that one person killed another person is to indicate personal intent to do so.
You....or anyone else at this point apparently, have no basis to do so.
You opening post was wrong in its wording. The fact that you can't admit that is your own shortfall.
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OK, from the source I discovered the story from:

Fellow racer Tyler Graves told The Sporting News: "Tony pinched him into the frontstretch wall, a racing thing. The right rear tire went down, he spun on the exit of (Turn) 2. They threw the caution and everything was toned down. Kevin got out of his car. ... He was throwing his arms up all over the place at Tony for most of the corner.

"I know Tony could see him. I know how you can see out of these cars. When Tony got close to him, he hit the throttle. When you hit a throttle on a sprint car, the car sets sideways. It set sideways, the right rear tire hit Kevin, Kevin was sucked underneath and was stuck under it for a second or two and then it threw him about 50 yards."

So, I was going on information provided by a racer. Someone who knows more than me, and certainly more than you, about the situation. And as you can see, he does indeed imply an element of intent and culpability on Tony Stewart's part. Now, my opening post was based on the above, which is on one of the top sporting web sites in the the world. So, wind your neck in eh girl.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
So, wind your neck in eh girl.
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No. Until proven otherwise, to report (I don't care what site), and for you to then mindlessly re-report non-facts is stupid.
Someone who knows more than you? Clearly not.

Edit.....Also, Editing the post title to include "allegedly" indicates a lack of faith in your initial statement....Which didn't even include a source.
 
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Ricardodaforce said:
There is no allegedly about it. Tony Stewart did kill him. ... was there any intent.
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Stuff me! What an outragous statement! I think you should wind your neck in.

The "decking" and the red mist is a big part of motor racing. Sometimes "the decking" is actually the best bit! And there can be helmet throwing and general aggression. And sometimes there can be simmering feuds and dislike and an ongoing determination that "if he comes anywhere near me, we're going to the wall together and then we'll see who walks away".

I'd never heard of Kevin Ward but he was 17 IIRC so probably not racing long enough to create an ongoing feud with Smoke Stewart, for whom I have a lot of respect as a hard racer. Smoke is a consumate professional and, rightly, worth millions. If there had been anything to sort out it would have been dealt with on track at the next race or somewhere round the back of the trucks in the paddock. He wouldn't deliberately have used the car on him in front of spectators and witnesses. That's an insult to everybody's intelligence. Having seen the gruesome little video, I have not one scintilla of doubt that Ward was shaking the fist as Stewart arrived unsighted and sideways on dirt and between them they misjudged things by 18" and arrived at the same place at the same time.
 
Yves Geza said:
Stuff me! What an outragous statement! I think you should wind your neck in.

The "decking" and the red mist is a big part of motor racing. Sometimes "the decking" is actually the best bit! And there can be helmet throwing and general aggression. And sometimes there can be simmering feuds and dislike and an ongoing determination that "if he comes anywhere near me, we're going to the wall together and then we'll see who walks away".

I'd never heard of Kevin Ward but he was 17 IIRC so probably not racing long enough to create an ongoing feud with Smoke Stewart, for whom I have a lot of respect as a hard racer. Smoke is a consumate professional and, rightly, worth millions. If there had been anything to sort out it would have been dealt with on track at the next race or somewhere round the back of the trucks in the paddock. He wouldn't deliberately have used the car on him in front of spectators and witnesses. That's an insult to everybody's intelligence. Having seen the gruesome little video, I have not one scintilla of doubt that Ward was shaking the fist as Stewart arrived unsighted and sideways on dirt and between them they misjudged things by 18" and arrived at the same place at the same time.
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As I said, I based what I wrote on how it is being reported on the site I found the story on. See, I quoted some bits above? Now I can see that you've taken some umbrage at my wording, as has the woman, but such is life. People can see the same thing yet have differing opinions. It's human nature. Now I'm not saying your friend "Smoke" willfully killed him, as I said that's up to the authorities to ultimately decide upon, but on Eurosport.com (Yahoo Sport), the racer quoted does say Stewart could see him, does say Stewart blipped the throttle, and does explain the consequences of such an action.
An interesting story. As is the need to fellow forum members to be so strangely aggressive!
 
viv1969 said:
No. Until proven otherwise, to report (I don't care what site), and for you to then mindlessly re-report non-facts is stupid.
Someone who knows more than you? Clearly not.

Edit.....Also, Editing the post title to include "allegedly" indicates a lack of faith in your initial statement....Which didn't even include a source.
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I didn't.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
, as has the woman.......
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Oh well, aren't we just the charmer! :lol:
I haven't seen any aggression; merely people questioning your use of phrasing, and your "heels in" attempt to simply state that you may have been premature in your less than factual assessment.
 
viv1969 said:
Oh well, aren't we just the charmer! :lol:
I haven't seen any aggression; merely people questioning your use of phrasing, and your "heels in" attempt to simply state that you may have been premature in your less than factual assessment.
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Premature? Who stated I'd edited the thread title and attributed a made up reason for it?
 
viv1969 said:
Made up?
Where's that then?
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"Also, Editing the post title to include "allegedly" indicates a lack of faith in your initial statement...."

I DIDN'T edit the thread title so your "lack of faith" baloney is 100% a figment of your imagination. You really are trying to argue just for the sake of it.
 
I'm enjoying this. Where's the popcorn? :)
 
Ricardodaforce said:
"Also, Editing the post title to include "allegedly" indicates a lack of faith in your initial statement...."

I DIDN'T edit the thread title so your "lack of faith" baloney is 100% a figment of your imagination. You really are trying to argue just for the sake of it.
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My points are clear...I stand by them Ric.
 
I looked at this thread after the first post and thought the title was harsh. I read some of the articles on the web bad decided not to respond as there is no way you can come to any conclusion based on what has been said at the moment.
 
Lynton said:
howver from what I read... american ,ale race car driver.... "somehow" wanders onto a nascar track (which is on sand?
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)
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Not a NASCAR track - they only have one race in one of the national touring series on a dirt track, which is at Eldora. Not sand, it's hard packed dirt. The fatality occurred at a sprint car race, which is not a series run by NASCAR (there are various sanctioning bodies for these, USAC are probably the biggest).

If you've not watched US racing series before, on ovals when there is an incident the whole course goes under caution, unlike in the racing that most people here will be familiar with (yellow flag at one turn only). It is not uncommon for a driver that thinks they have been wronged in an incident to wait for what they consider the guilty party to come round on the next lap and gesticulate / throw their helmet / etc as a sign of displeasure. It is not like F1 where everyone is very 'corporate' - it's not a case of walking back to the pits with your helmet on so you can't be interviewed, more like going over and remonstrating / starting a fight.

I've not watched the video, but from having seen plenty of incidents in oval racing it's not a case of "somehow" wandering onto the track. If your car is stopped on the track from being turned, you are there already.
 
Cobra said:
I can confirm that was a mod edit, purely for the sake of "possible slander" or some such legality
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The post should reflect that it has been edited by someone other than the author and the nature of that change. To someone that didn't read the whole thread to find the statement I quoted, you are putting words into someone else's mouth.

The Defamation Act 2013 changes the legal landscape a lot for website owners, especially where content is user generated. It also codifies the absolute defence of "truth" to defamation actions. As written pre-edit the title is true. No-one disputes it. There was no allegedly about it.
 
If you didn't read the whole thread then you missed post 7
which clearly stated that the title had been mod edited

Jimmy_Lemon said:
Indeed on every point (have now made the title slightly more legal friendly).
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onomatopoeia said:
I've not watched the video, but from having seen plenty of incidents in oval racing it's not a case of "somehow" wandering onto the track. If your car is stopped on the track from being turned, you are there already.
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I think you need to watch the video. No.. he didn't "somehow wander" onto the track, he purposely did. He crashed against the wall, well off the line, and got out, walked into the centre of the track, and pointed at Tony Stewart's car, then gesticulated for him to stop.. which he, and every other driver, found it difficult to do.
 
it would appear to be "Road Rage" on the track ……….. from what has been reported
 
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Saw this last night on reddit. Was bloody awful.
Common sense dictates you don't get out of your car in the middle of a track, so there is that....
From what I read of eyewitness reports, Tony actually accelerated just before hitting him, which caused the car to kick out at the rear/fishtail, and thats how the lad went under the offside rear wheel.

PS. I don't think that using the word 'killing' implies personal intent. Not at all.
If it was a pure accident and Tony Stewart tried to avoid it, did he still kill him? Yes. Not deliberately, but yes.
If he slipped and fell 300ft off a cliff and landed on someone at the bottom, did he kill him? Yes. No intent there.

Although that's semantics. Please don't argue, it isn't nice to read :)
 
onomatopoeia said:
The post should reflect that it has been edited by someone other than the author and the nature of that change. To someone that didn't read the whole thread to find the statement I quoted, you are putting words into someone else's mouth.

The Defamation Act 2013 changes the legal landscape a lot for website owners, especially where content is user generated. It also codifies the absolute defence of "truth" to defamation actions. As written pre-edit the title is true. No-one disputes it. There was no allegedly about it.
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Thank you for your concern, it is much appreciated.
Unfortunately many arguments are caused, here, and are the direct result of, people not reading the whole thread.

If you care to read the quoted message and my comment again (post #25)
I reinforced Toms point / comment in post #7,
as some people appeared to miss it the first time.

As you can now see its clearly obvious that it was just the title that was altered.

If we do edit a post, usually to remove a sweary or personal insult,
its always suffixed or prefixed **Mod Edit**
And a brief description of the transgression.
 
Byker28i said:
A good article written here: http://www.motorsport.com/sprint/ne...river-who-was-killed-but-know-the-whole-story
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Agree, a well balanced article.

I'm not a massive fan of American motorsport, but from what I have seen in the last few years it seems the 'throwing helmet' antics are kind of encouraged as part of the 'show'. Surely they will put a stop to it now.

I admit that in the past there have been some entertaining moments in British/international motorsport (Neal threatening to rip Plato's face off, M Schumacher accusing Coultard of trying to kill him in Spa etc) but these have happened in the pits not on track.
One exception I can remember was in rallycross when a driver walked onto the track waving his arms to get the heat stopped after being spun out, he was banned for quite a while.

A live race track is no place for anyone to be walking about, these Sprint Series need to learn a lesson from this tragic accident.
 
I was at Silverstone for touring cars when John Cleland jumped out his Vectra and went for the driver they had collided with and put them both out. Steve Soper?
 
Byker28i said:
I was at Silverstone for touring cars when John Cleland jumped out his Vectra and went for the driver they had collided with and put them both out. Steve Soper?
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Yeah Mr Soper indeed with some epic commentry from Murray Walker too!
 
viv1969 said:
Oh well, aren't we just the charmer! :LOL:
I haven't seen any aggression; merely people questioning your use of phrasing, and your "heels in" attempt to simply state that you may have been premature in your less than factual assessment.
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'The woman' :LOL:

Please mods, can that be Ruths title from now on? :D
 
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