My image in a 2012 calendar?

ding76uk said:
ex·ploit
verb /ikˈsploit/  
exploited, past participle; exploited, past tense; exploiting, present participle; exploits, 3rd person singular present

1. Make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource)
- 500 companies sprang up to exploit this new technology

2. Use (a situation or person) in an unfair or selfish way
- the company was exploiting a legal loophole
- accusations that he exploited a wealthy patient

3. Benefit unfairly from the work of (someone), typically by overworking or underpaying them
- making money does not always mean exploiting others

Dictionary definition point 3 seems to sum it up.
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How can it be overworking anybody? Why is it underpaying? or unfairly benefiting? ......... If someone's income relies on the photos, then fair enough, but if they want to display or share their hobby then how can it possibly be exploitation? My point is that these shots have usually already been taken therefore no effort is involved?
 
awp said:
If everyone in the production chain is being paid - except the photographer - who is supplying the images that sell the product - then either they are being exploited - or surrendering their image for an ego trip. There seems no other explanation.
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Ego trips can be nice too ;)
 
awp said:
If everyone in the production chain is being paid - except the photographer - who is supplying the images that sell the product - then either they are being exploited - or surrendering their image for an ego trip. There seems no other explanation.
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You certainly have a problem with other peoples egos. :cuckoo:
 
StarTrekFacePalm.gif
 
ding76uk said:
It takes a mechanic 2 mins to change a bulb on a car, yet they will still charge for it because the skill is being able to do it, no matter how easy. If photography was that easy, why would there ever be a pro photographer?
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Working in the motortrade, I'd feel bad about charging for changing a bulb specifically - that's Halfords line! OK, might be included in general time charged for. Enough times had a MOT place swap a bulb etc for no extra charge (even though they're not actually allowed to.)

As for the Amateur vs Pro argument; I'd say in most sectors (mechanics included) there are plenty of Amateurs that will happily do work for free, in some cases for others that are making money.
In a lot of cases, these people would be happy to see their work being considered 'professional' by those making money.
And of course there's always going to be a sliding scale - between those that don't make any money and those that soley make money from the activity - with plenty inbetween.
Computing is another obvious example - those semi-literate are often being asked by various people to do work for free. Some happily do do work for free and give it away for free to anyone, others ask for small amounts of money and others expect a big salary.
 
About two years ago my motor home had a radiator leak which I managed to stop using half a bottle of 'Innostop' and the radiator has been fine ever since.

Six months ago I stopped in a lay-by on the A1. As I enjoyed my ciggy I noticed a young lady pull over and stop about twenty feet in front of me. She got out of the car and was obviously in a state of distress as she wandered around her car, using her phone and obviously very upset.

I wandered over and enquired as to her state of distress, which became obvious as I could see the steam from the overheating engine and the small pool of water below the front of the car. There was a fine spray of liquid coming from the radiator and remembering my own problems I returned to my camper (Sorry, motor home sounds a bit poncy) and checked I still had the half empty bottle of Innostop that I had kept in case of emergencies....... :cool:

One of the benefits of driving a camper van is that they can carry quite a lot of water (not to mention the on-board toilet facilities) ......... Anyway, after reassuring the young lady that I wasn't a weirdo and was only trying to help her on her way she succumbed and allowed me to lift her bonnet (that's the one on the car by the way, she wasn't wearing any sort of hat!)

I carefully removed the radiator cap and reassured her that I may be able to sort out the problem, at least enough to get her to her destination.

I returned to my camper and retrieved the 'Innostop' and slowly poured the remaining contents into the radiator.......... Realising the car also required a healthy top up of water I returned to the van intending to use the electric kettle to transfer the water to the car, several trips would be required but what the hell! She needed help!

Unfortunately the water tank was almost empty! :eek: So I explained, please don't worry I have a reserve tank of water which already contains some blue anti-freeze ;) I walked around to the side of the camper and unlocked the little door containing the portable toilet tank, removing the tank I asked her to sit in the car and start the engine :D I walked over to the car and proceeded to empty the contents of the tank into the radiator and within a few seconds the leak from the radiator stopped...... :thumbs: I let her run the engine for a couple of minutes more then called her out to look a t the radiator. The leak had completely stopped and she informed me the red light had gone out..... Yay! it had worked! ...... She looked so happy and relieved to be able to continue her journey, it made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside :D


I asked where she was heading and discovered we would be travelling together for the next 10 miles or so :love: I gave her my phone number and asked her to ring me if she had any problems.


She never did call me and she didn't offer to pay for the half bottle of innostop and she didn't offer anything to me in return for my time! But did she take the **** out of me? ................. actually, yes she did!..... but never realised :D
 
Sorry, that bit wasn't targeted at you, but those discussing it.

However, you do seem overly bothered by it ;).
 
Anyone reading this would thing that publishers have only just realised they can get free content...

This is nothing new. Forget about it and move on. Moaning won't change anything.
 
I'll step away. Who thought we could have a discussion based on this?

Andrew and myself should learn. We have both been here before, several times. The same comments about the Pros vs Am's. Being out of touch, being bitter etc. always get thrown at us, but funnily we never mentioned it.

If you don't want to understand fine, but be in no two minds you are being taken advantage of. If an ego stroke / name in credit / promise of more work is good enough for you, so be it.

Do as you wish, as I said I am not a dictator.
 
ding76uk said:
I'll step away. Who thought we could have a discussion based on this?

Andrew and myself should learn. We have both been here before, several times. The same comments about the Pros vs Am's. Being out of touch, being bitter etc. always get thrown at us, but funnily we never mentioned it.

If you don't want to understand fine, but be in no two minds you are being taken advantage of. If an ego stroke / name in credit / promise of more work is good enough for you, so be it.

Do as you wish, as I said I am not a dictator.
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I don't think its about understanding, most people in this thread has said they can see both sides so they do understand your point and don't see giving away an image for free as a major issue. It does seem some though will only accept one side of the argument that its a cardinal sin for giving an image away to someone who will make money from it.

How many businesses/people have made money from Banksy's work producing reprints etc as already said some people really have no interest in receiving payment for it, its that simple. They are aware the company/person may or may not use their image for commercial purposes but are still HAPPY to give them the image.

Also yet again my mention of togs exploiting people and person properties for an image has once again been skipped over, so it seems whilst all this chat about being exploited is wrong but its ok if your the person doing the exploiting!!!
 
I think it's getting silly if you're suggesting that taking pictures of people or places is exploiting them. Why don't we all just shoot test cards all the time. That should be safe enough.
 
awp said:
I think it's getting silly if you're suggesting that taking pictures of people or places is exploiting them. Why don't we all just shoot test cards all the time. That should be safe enough.
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Well by your logic everyone in the chain should be paid, so surely the owner of the building or the person in the shot should be paid also. As said already the tog worked hard to get the shot, did he work as hard as the person maintaining the building or the person in the shot who spent 3 hours putting on make up and getting dressed 5 times over.
 
pitkin2020 said:
Well by your logic everyone in the chain should be paid, so surely the owner of the building or the person in the shot should be paid also. As said already the tog worked hard to get the shot, did he work as hard as the person maintaining the building or the person in the shot who spent 3 hours putting on make up and getting dressed 5 times over.
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Doh! That's IS just silly. There's no parallel at all.

It's a very difficult argument this one, but I know which side I'm on. Don't do it!
 
jerry12953 said:
Doh! That's IS just silly. There's no parallel at all.

It's a very difficult argument this one, but I know which side I'm on. Don't do it!
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Why?? The publisher expects to get paid for selling something displaying the image, the printer expects to get paid for printing the image, the tog expects to get paid for taking the image so why shouldn't the person in the image be paid for too.

I am playing devils advocate here but the pro togs seem to screaming about exploitation of the tog whilst exploiting the subject they have shot. I'm not talking about every type of shot it would never be feasible to do it other wise lol. The only difference is the owner of the building or even the person in the shot sometimes aren't even aware of the image or even the fact the image has been sold, so what they dont know wont hurt them!!. Yet the tog entering the competition 99% of the time is fully aware they are GIVING an image away, whos exploiting who. OR does this really come down to those who really care only care about the fact that as long as they get paid they couldn't give a toss about anyone else in the chain!!
 
pitkin2020 said:
Why?? The publisher expects to get paid for selling something displaying the image, the printer expects to get paid for printing the image, the tog expects to get paid for taking the image so why shouldn't the person in the image be paid for too.

I am playing devils advocate here but the pro togs seem to screaming about exploitation of the tog whilst exploiting the subject they have shot. I'm not talking about every type of shot it would never be feasible to do it other wise lol. The only difference is the owner of the building or even the person in the shot sometimes aren't even aware of the image or even the fact the image has been sold, so what they dont know wont hurt them!!. Yet the tog entering the competition 99% of the time is fully aware they are GIVING an image away, whos exploiting who. OR does this really come down to those who really care only care about the fact that as long as they get paid they couldn't give a toss about anyone else in the chain!!
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Calm down, dear......;)
 
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perhaps if, where you see "professional" mentioned you substitute it for the word "paid" and where you see amateur you use the word "unpaid". Would that help?

It is after all the generally accepted definition of the words......
;)

Sorry, I too promised myself I wouldn't come back to this thread but I couldn't resist...

Toby
 
ding76uk said:
I was leaving this thread, but please for the love of my sanity.

Where are those arguing for getting paid for using the word Professional in this discussion?

The only ones who are seem to be those agreeing to give it away for free!
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I believe I was correct in my statement, it seems the pro togs within this thread are the ones complaining about exploitation, I never mentioned pro togs complaining about the paid/unpaid debate.
 
I'm glad other people are trying to leave but can't help themselves, i thought I had a problem :-)
 
I entered the tp calendar competition and won November with the hope of being a house hold name over night :) it didn't happen :( and I had to pay for a copy or ten of the calendar..... But it was worth it.

Lol lol.

Give it away, ten copies is enough for every room in the house + the shed! Lol
 
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To continue going in circles, this makes some interesting reading: http://justpaste.it/c8g
(Of course we don't know how true it is and I'm glad to say I have no idea about the kid we're talking about - but it goes to show that there are plenty of people who are 'exploited' to a much greater degree out there, etc.)
 
Well I decided to allow the image to be used on this occasion and it has been chosen from the short list to appear in next years Derbyshire Life calendar. I will get 10 copies of the calendar as "payment" which I will be selling on here for £9.99 each for anyone who wants a small piece of memorabilia from the thread. :D ;)
The reason I went for it is that as a hobbyist/amateur it's nice to see your acheivement in print and if I had requested payment, then they would have gone elsewhere. In an ideal world, everyone would request a payment for image usage so they would have no choice, but we live in the real world where most amateurs would be more than happy just to see their image published. I'm sure once the novelty of seeing my image in a publication wears off, I may not allow free usage again. I'll leave that for another amateur to discuss on here soon no doubt.
I appreciate all the comments and have been amazed at the interest shown with the two very distinctive sides to the argument.
Whilst I understand both sides, on this occasion, I made my choice.

Thanks for all the input. :thumbs:

Gareth
 
You get 10 calendars out of an image you don't think is one of your best - at the very least it's free printing.

You can always sell the image in other places as well :)
 
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