Multiple shootings in Paris

Yv said:
guessing he means Breivik, but pretty sure whilst that was anti islamisation, it was also a very political ideal rather than christian one. Cant think of any other though.
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He cited protecting Christianity in much of his (barmy) writing. It was as political as Islamist terrorism, which isn't generally about theology; but about perceived persecution - particularly the Israel/Palestine problem which has been the engine driving Islamist violence for decades; and now the occupation of middle eastern countries by Western forces. Islam might give the terrorism it's particular flavour but the meat of the problem is the same stuff humans have been fighting about since time immemorial: land and resources.
 
RedRobin said:
....I am only trying to be objective and realistic about the situation. I don't doubt that the ISIS agenda is that they would have found any excuse to commit what are called terrorist acts.

I don't see them as victors but as an enemy for as long as they commit acts of aggression. I support heavy military action against them even if it results in collateral damage. However, I do understand how ISIS, and indeed other Muslims, would feel deeply offended by such 'cartoons'.

If these cartoons were mocking Jews the publication would probably be branded as anti-semetic and racist. There's much hypocrisy being practiced here.
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I really don't agree with "heavy military action" as a solution, because from a recruiting and PR perspective it just plays into their hands.
I really do agree with your comment about hypocrisy though.
 
big soft moose said:
If i recall correctly the french have a more flexible approach to 'enhanced questioning' (as the americans like to refer to torture these days) they certainly used to have a "code of humane torture" in the 60s and 70s
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Yip - like wiring up their gonads to a landrover battery :D
 
RedRobin said:
....I am only trying to be objective and realistic about the situation. I don't doubt that the ISIS agenda is that they would have found any excuse to commit what are called terrorist acts.

I don't see them as victors but as an enemy for as long as they commit acts of aggression. I support heavy military action against them even if it results in collateral damage. However, I do understand how ISIS, and indeed other Muslims, would feel deeply offended by such 'cartoons'.

If these cartoons were mocking Jews the publication would probably be branded as anti-semetic and racist. There's much hypocrisy being practiced here.
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Not sure where you have been the last 48 hours but everything was fair game for Charlie Hebdo. However, only the Islamic nutters thought killing the cartoonists was a good idea. The fact that they lampooned most. if not all religions has been well reported.
 
Yv said:
guessing he means Breivik, but pretty sure whilst that was anti islamisation, it was also a very political ideal rather than christian one. Cant think of any other though.
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you could say that about most of the current terrorism - its got very little to do with the actual teachings of islam, mind you virtually all terrorism is at least semi political in nature

Other options for mass murder by christian groups would be various IRA etc attacks, the various activities of the Klan, the Unabomber (although he only killed 3 it wasnt for want of trying) - the worst in modern history probably being the Sabra massacre in the lebanon in 1982, where a marionite christian group killed a collosal number ( I forget how many exactly but IIRC it was nearly a thousand) of lebanese muslims.

Course theres also complete nutters like the Lords Resistance Army in uganda , who are alledgely christians , but who's attrocities against the local populace make ISIL look like a WI outing
 
chadders said:
Not sure where you have been the last 48 hours but everything was fair game for Charlie Hebdo. However, only the Islamic nutters thought killing the cartoonists was a good idea. The fact that they lampooned most. if not all religions has been well reported.
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....I don't buy or read newspapers and I had never heard of Charlie Hebdo before yesterday although I have worked in and visited Paris many times.

My own opinion is that we should all show respect for all the religions of others irrespective of their ways rather than lampoon them. But, ISIS need stopping by whatever means possible, as do other terror organisations regardless of their declared religion.
 
RedRobin said:
....I am only trying to be objective and realistic about the situation. I don't doubt that the ISIS agenda is that they would have found any excuse to commit what are called terrorist acts.

I don't see them as victors but as an enemy for as long as they commit acts of aggression. I support heavy military action against them even if it results in collateral damage. However, I do understand how ISIS, and indeed other Muslims, would feel deeply offended by such 'cartoons'.

If these cartoons were mocking Jews the publication would probably be branded as anti-semetic and racist. There's much hypocrisy being practiced here.
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I watched a TV programme recently about Dave Allen, the Irish comedian who was popular in the 1970's and 80's. His material was highly satirical and criticised the Roman Catholic Church but he wasn't killed for poking fun at them.
 
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RedRobin said:
....I am only trying to be objective and realistic about the situation. I don't doubt that the ISIS agenda is that they would have found any excuse to commit what are called terrorist acts.

I don't see them as victors but as an enemy for as long as they commit acts of aggression. I support heavy military action against them even if it results in collateral damage. However, I do understand how ISIS, and indeed other Muslims, would feel deeply offended by such 'cartoons'.

If these cartoons were mocking Jews the publication would probably be branded as anti-semetic and racist. There's much hypocrisy being practiced here.
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really? No one escaped their satirical pens, the ONLY difference is that no one else chose to march in and shoot the staff because of it. A quick look at everyones favourite search engine finds this recent blog post very quickly http://blogs.forward.com/the-shmooze/212244/when-charlie-hebdo-lampooned-jews-too/?
 
Yv said:
guessing he means Breivik, but pretty sure whilst that was anti islamisation, it was also a very political ideal rather than christian one. Cant think of any other though.
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it was the only one that I could think off, wasn't Christian terrorism though as you said...
 
BSM

These are all your self invented reasons behind your statement. I'm sorry, but you're still very wrong.

Not only is IS/ISIS/ISIL very well organized, so is AQ. The worst terrorist act in history, remember it? Not the actions of 'nut jobs'! AQ is well enough organized, they proved that in Spain, in the Far East and here.

Yes, we can bomb Syria, with all 8 of our aircraft, which would have a great deal of difficulty carrying anything like enough weapons to sort out the problem. Even with everyone else involved it's far short of effective, less so as IS adapt.

But even if they did, the problem for us isn't what happens in Syria, it's what happens here, and in France and every other civilized Country. If you think that the last 3 days has just been a nut job then you need to get your head looked at!

You've clearly been asleep for the last few years, AQ now have a very experienced pool of manpower, they learned their trade in Afghanistan! You are being complacent, either that or talking for the sake of it, I'm not sure which!
 
Yv said:
No one escaped their satirical pens, the ONLY difference is that no one else chose to march in and shoot the staff because of it.
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Whilst it is true that the satirical publication poked fun at all different religions, politicians etc, it was clear that doing so toward Muslims was a different issue ... it had been made clear what the response might be by previous actions, (e.g. general response to 'Satanic Verses' and specific fire-bombing and threats to these publishers).
Of course freedom of speech meant that they were free to publish but they paid a high price for deciding to continue with that course of action, as did some others not connected to them.
 
chadders said:
Not sure where you have been the last 48 hours but everything was fair game for Charlie Hebdo. However, only the Islamic nutters thought killing the cartoonists was a good idea. The fact that they lampooned most. if not all religions has been well reported.
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I'm fairly sure the christian lunatics would have thought it an excellent idea, but probably lacked the ability to carry it out as they are pretty much based in the states and wouldn't have had the knowledge or ability to attack a target in france

look for example at 'the order' killing Alan Berg because they didnt like his liberal chat show

(i was just reading up on some of the christian lunancy on wikipedia and some of it is truly bonkers - like for example Christian Identity apparently belive that they (and aryan whites generally) are the true isrealites - descended from "ten tribes captured by the assyrians" while the jews are not in fact isrealites as they are decscended from Lesu - who traded his birthright for a bowl of stew in genesis aparently ( I don't know the bible well enough to know if their references are right). Apparently this means that people who opose them are the true anti semites

they also believe that only the caucasion races are decendended from adam and eve, while the coloured people are sub humans , who are reffered to in the bible "as the beasts of the feild" and from this derive the belief that black don't hsve souls

and also that cancer is spread by human 'rodents' through contact with 'unclean ' persons

Theres a lot more if you fancy scaring yourself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity and lets not forget that this group aspires to take control of the worlds largest superpower , which possess a huge arsenal of weapons of mass destruction.
 
chadders said:
Not sure where you have been the last 48 hours but everything was fair game for Charlie Hebdo. However, only the Islamic nutters thought killing the cartoonists was a good idea. The fact that they lampooned most. if not all religions has been well reported.
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Have you heard of Maurice Sinet, an acclaimed French artist and satirical journalist. He was fired from CharlieHebdo, after pressure from "pro Jewish" groups after they accused him of Anti Semitism. He has been taken to court and faced death threats from the Jewish Defence League for his work

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siné

It seems that free speech is OK - depending who it is aimed at.
 
Cartus said:
I watched a TV programme recently about Dave Allen, the Irish comedian who was popular in the 1970's and 80's. His material was highly satirical and criticised the Roman Catholic Church but he wasn't killed for poking fun at them.
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Tim Minchin pokes all religions with a pointy stick too.
His section about Islam and the Quran during his RAH show was brilliant. His pope song must've peed off a few Catholics too :LOL:
 
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Reports of yet another hostage situation in Montpellier, France. Gunman holding a policeman in a jeweller.
 
andy700 said:
Have you heard of Maurice Sinet, an acclaimed French artist and satirical journalist. He was fired from CharlieHebdo, after pressure from "pro Jewish" groups after they accused him of Anti Semitism. He has been taken to court and faced death threats from the Jewish Defence League for his work

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siné

It seems that free speech is OK - depending who it is aimed at.
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Death threat, which amounted to nothing. He's still alive.

Meanwhile:

http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/1606/3979/original.jpg
 
big soft moose said:
I'm fairly sure the christian lunatics would have thought it an excellent idea, but probably lacked the ability to carry it out as they are pretty much based in the states and wouldn't have had the knowledge or ability to attack a target in france

look for example at 'the order' killing Alan Berg because they didnt like his liberal chat show

(i was just reading up on some of the christian lunancy on wikipedia and some of it is truly bonkers - like for example Christian Identity apparently belive that they (and aryan whites generally) are the true isrealites - descended from "ten tribes captured by the assyrians" while the jews are not in fact isrealites as they are decscended from Lesu - who traded his birthright for a bowl of stew in genesis aparently ( I don't know the bible well enough to know if their references are right). Apparently this means that people who opose them are the true anti semites

they also believe that only the caucasion races are decendended from adam and eve, while the coloured people are sub humans , who are reffered to in the bible "as the beasts of the feild" and from this derive the belief that black don't hsve souls

and also that cancer is spread by human 'rodents' through contact with 'unclean ' persons

Theres a lot more if you fancy scaring yourself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity and lets not forget that this group aspires to take control of the worlds largest superpower , which possess a huge arsenal of weapons of mass destruction.
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We'd be lost without your input from wiki.

However the thing is that the rest of recognise those people as lunatics, it appears you average member of the religion of peace doesn't recognise the nutters in their midst as such. Or if they do that are either too scared or too unwilling to shop them. Alternatively they secretly sympathise with them.
 
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dejongj said:
it was the only one that I could think off, wasn't Christian terrorism though as you said...
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That is the one I was referring to. If he was Muslim instead of Christian, there is no doubt that the murders he committed would be attributed to Islamic terrorism. Take a look at the article I linked to above, very interesting reading.
 
So things have changed?


I suggest you stick with to the end. If nothing else it shows how easily these people can be manipulated.
 
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Rapscallion said:
I am saying you are being very misleading by taking a near decade old picture alongside the phrase 'meanwhile'.
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And if you want a counterpoint to the video you have posted, there are some responses from British Muslims to the picture you posted above.

BBC
Mr Bukhari told the BBC News website: "The placards and chants were disgraceful and disgusting, Muslims do not feel that way.
"I condemn them without reservation, these people are less representative of Muslims than the BNP are of the British people."
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CNN
Muslim Council of Britain spokesman Inayat Bunglawala said the Muslim community would welcome eventual arrests and prosecutions of those brandishing the placards.
"The placards that were on display were quite disgraceful and in our opinion seemed to constitute a clear incitement to violence, even murder," Bunglawala told Reuters.
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A range of British Muslim organizations condemned the London protest, including the moderate Muslim Council of Britain to the more radical Hizb-ut-Tahrir, which Prime Minister Blair wants to outlaw because of claims it supports terrorism.
"While strongly condemning the publication of these caricatures, we also unequivocally condemn those who are urging violent protests or inciting hatred against others," Hizb-ut-Tahrir spokesman Imran Waheed told PA.
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Cartus said:
I watched a TV programme recently about Dave Allen, the Irish comedian who was popular in the 1970's and 80's. His material was highly satirical and criticised the Roman Catholic Church but he wasn't killed for poking fun at them.
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I saw that too. An excellent programme. He was banned from Irish TV for a while though.


Steve.
 
Rapscallion said:
That is the one I was referring to. If he was Muslim instead of Christian, there is no doubt that the murders he committed would be attributed to Islamic terrorism. Take a look at the article I linked to above, very interesting reading.
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Oh get off it will you, if you can't see the difference well the. There you go, that just confirms the problem.
 
Rapscallion said:
I am saying you are being very misleading by taking a near decade old picture alongside the phrase 'meanwhile'.
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It was, the difference is though that it is being enacted upon and actively encouraged. That is a huge difference. If you don't agree with a cartoon why not take it through the courts, that is the civilised way of doing it.
 
Very
chadders said:
So things have changed?


I suggest you stick with to the end. If nothing else it shows how easily these people can be manipulated.
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Very disturbing and worrying indeed.
 
Bad day for jihadists, their sympathisers and their other "useful idiots".

Abu Hamza gets gets "life" in the U.S.
 
chadders said:
Bad day for jihadists, their sympathisers and their other "useful idiots".

Abu Hamza gets gets "life" in the U>S>
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I've already started a Thread on it;)
 
Surely what this thread emphatically tells us is that there are plenty of extremist nutters in the world of ALL political and religious persuasions and all everyone else can do is react to each event. The fact remains that stirring others up by crude lampooning is irresponsible and only served to bring brutal loss of life as the cost of their worldwide publicity.

I haven't seen what sparked this all off but did the cartoon also apply to any devout Muslim or was it clearly just ISIS? If broader than solely ISIS, I think it was totally insensitive and irresponsible in the climate of this era in human history.

Anyway, that's my opinion and in the grand scheme of things it means diddlysquat and there are other things I would rather be doing now than having these discussions.
 
RedRobin said:
Surely what this thread emphatically tells us is that there are plenty of extremist nutters in the world of ALL political and religious persuasions and all everyone else can do is react to each event. The fact remains that stirring others up by crude lampooning is irresponsible and only served to bring brutal loss of life as the cost of their worldwide publicity.

I haven't seen what sparked this all off but did the cartoon also apply to any devout Muslim or was it clearly just ISIS? If broader than solely ISIS, I think it was totally insensitive and irresponsible in the climate of this era in human history.

Anyway, that's my opinion and in the grand scheme of things it means diddlysquat and there are other things I would rather be doing now than having these discussions.
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And yet here you are.....
Just sayin'.
 
Yv said:
An alternative meanwhile is that whilst all this has been going on today, Saudi was busy doling out delightful punishments to those that dare to question Islam and the state. Caveat: I am just reading the back story, so no I don't know all the facts behind it, just sharing as a point of interest.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...blogger-sentenced-to-1000-lashes-9967008.html
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Such barbarous activity is deemed wholly unacceptable here. Saudi is very staunchly Islamic and if we don't try and defend our way of life this is what'll spread here.
 
chadders said:
We'd be lost without your input from wiki.
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as opposed to the other people posting links on this thread .... :shake: also is it a bad thing to actually do some research instead of posting ill informed opinion not supported by anything ? (not that i'm saying you are you understand - but theres certainly been a fair bit of that on this thread)


chadders said:
however the thing is that the rest of recognise those people as lunatics, it appears you average member of the religion of peace doesn't recognise the nutters in their midst as such. Or if they do that are either too scared or too unwilling to shop them. Alternatively they secretly sympathise with them.
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do they - both ways , there seem to be a hell of a lot of americans (though definitely a minority)who don't recognise christian identity and their ilk as lunatics - if you think about it if they were clearly seen as such and readly informed upon the FBI (who do consider them domestic terrorists according to that link) , would have broken then up by now. Whats really worrying is when you look at the beliefs of some serious politicians... Sarah Palin springs to mind

Likeiwise i don't think its true to say that the average muslim sympathises AQ or ISIL - some do , but a lot don't (for example the northern aliance in afghanistan are muslims too but that didnt stop them kicking crap out of the taliban and AQ, as are the majority of of the kurds - but this hasnt stopped them fighting ISIL. Its not even true to say that the majority of the british muslims support them.
 
ST4 said:
Such barbarous activity is deemed wholly unacceptable here. Saudi is very staunchly Islamic and if we don't try and defend our way of life this is what'll spread here.
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its certainly not great by our standards but are the saudi's not allowed to set their own laws ? - likewise they might well condemn detaining suspects without trial, and complicity in 'rendering ' them to a variety of third world s*** holes so they can be tortured, but fortunately they don't get to tell us how to behave...
 
big soft moose said:
Its not even true to say that the majority of the british muslims support them.
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That cannot be proved one way or the other. We might hope it's true, we might wish it to be true, but it's not provable.
 
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big soft moose said:
its certainly not great by our standards but are the saudi's not allowed to set their own laws ? - likewise they might well condemn detaining suspects without trial, and complicity in 'rendering ' them to a variety of third world s*** holes so they can be tortured, but fortunately they don't get to tell us how to behave...
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They are. It's just that people who are used to such practices, who condone them, practice them can/have come west.

Then we see what we have here. People who's beliefs and behavioural standards are completely at odds and contrary to our own setting up to live here and conspire against us.
 
RedRobin said:
Surely what this thread emphatically tells us is that there are plenty of extremist nutters in the world of ALL political and religious persuasions and all everyone else can do is react to each event. The fact remains that stirring others up by crude lampooning is irresponsible and only served to bring brutal loss of life as the cost of their worldwide publicity.

I haven't seen what sparked this all off but did the cartoon also apply to any devout Muslim or was it clearly just ISIS? If broader than solely ISIS, I think it was totally insensitive and irresponsible in the climate of this era in human history.
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One of them was a muslim and a Charlie Hebdo cartoonist in a passionate kiss with the caption: "it's better to love than to hate".
Another was of Mohammed saying "100 lashes if you don't die laughing!" with the caption "Charia Hebdo" (clearly a play on "Sharia Law").
Another had a Rabbi pushing an Iman in a wheelchair with both looking angry and jointly saying "You mustn't laugh!"

The original cartoon that kicked it all off wasn't even from Charlie Hebdo. It was Mohammed with a bomb in his turban in the context of a point about how religion informs violence. It was originally published in a Danish magazine, Charlie Hebdo simply republished it (after the original artist got death threats) to make the point that satire shouldn't be censored because of the demands of violent lunatics.
 
chadders said:
That cannot be proved one way or the other. We might hope it's true, we might wish it to be true, but it's not provable.
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well true - but then you can never absolutelty prove a negative - certainly the number known or thought by those that ought to know (like MI5) to support them is a very small proportion of the uk muslim population - and also as ghoti said earlier the total uk muslim population is only about 5% of total uk population , so they are outnumbered 19 to 1... so even if the whole of the UK muslims were in favour strict islamification (which they don't appear to be) the idea of such practices as whippings being ordered by the courts 'spreading here' is hysterical daily mail nonsense

Also as someone mentioned much earler on even AQ and ISIL don't actually sympathise with each other, with a bit of luck they may wind up spending much of their strength on fighting amongst themselves
 
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