Multiple shootings in Paris

Cobra said:
Sure if they are killed they become Martyrs, but are no longer a threat to us.
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Maybe, but by becoming Martyrs they'll become shining examples to many who wish to be just like them. If they rotted in a jail cell that wouldn't happen
 
viv1969 said:
The gunmen won't survive.
They'll die by the police's guns, or by their own.
They'll be held up as Martyrs by many thousands more.
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Where are these "many thousands more" of which you speak?
 
Garry Edwards said:
So you don't believe that the rule of law should apply to some people?
But I bet you believe that it should apply to you...
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Garry, I hate to say it, but this is not a civil/criminal matter, it has got to the stage where these people see themselves as being at war with us. They hate our way of life, they believe that democracy is a Western invention, and is totally incompatible with Islam. They will slaughter men, women and children without a second thought, yet our politicians think that they can talk to them, or even more absurdly, negotiate with them.
Many young men from Islamic backgrounds (mostly Pakistani/Asian) have gone from European countries including France, Germany and the UK, to join a war which involves setting up a "caliphate" - Islamic state in Iraq/Syria. The war involves wholesale slaughter of people who do not wish to join their "band".
Their own families know what they are up to, but when interviewed always give the same answer, the same lie - "We had no idea, he was such a nice boy".
I believe that they should be imprisoned for life if caught, in the country where they went to fight, and if they try to come back here then they should be refused entry.
For those who wish to come back, saying that they never thought it would be like that - I would not trust them, after all, do we want to see incidents like the ones in Paris happening in the UK?
 
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chadders said:
Where are these "many thousands more" of which you speak?
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Radical extremists in Europe and people who have gone to join ISIL/Al Qaeda abroad.
There are no shortage of them, they certainly number thousands in Syria and Iraq alone.
 
boyfalldown said:
Maybe, but by becoming Martyrs they'll become shining examples to many who wish to be just like them. If they rotted in a jail cell that wouldn't happen
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I must admit that I am not convinced,
besides how long do they actually "rot in jail"?
I fear that "for the rest of your natural life" no longer applies.
And then of course, there is the cost,
3 square meals a day,
of course that would have to be halal
reading martial in their own language etc etc.
for fear of contravening their "Human rights"
Somewhere to pray 3 or 4 times a day.....

If however it was more like a prisoner of war camp,
it maybe a deterrent.
Sadly I feel that it wouldn't though.
 
You'd be surprised what people will tell you, no matter how hard they appear. In any case, while tactics may well have been taught to them, it's less likely conduct after capture was. After all, the idea is to get away, or die in the attempt.

"Severe questioning".....I had to laugh at that. Never questioned anyone have you? It really is nothing like the TV/Films, a bit like waterboarding it really doesn't achieve much.

But anyway, we are jumping the gun at the moment. They may live, they may not. They may tell they may not. But denying them martyrdom is the best outcome.
 
Cobra said:
I must admit that I am not convinced,
besides how long do they actually "rot in jail"?
I fear that "for the rest of your natural life" no longer applies.
And then of course, there is the cost,
3 square meals a day,
of course that would have to be halal
reading martial in their own language etc etc.
for fear of contravening their "Human rights"
Somewhere to pray 3 or 4 times a day.....

If however it was more like a prisoner of war camp,
it maybe a deterrent.
Sadly I feel that it wouldn't though.
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I would hope that it did mean they rest of their natural life. Certainly Lee Rigby's killers have whole life tariffs. To me its more about forgetting them so they can't inspire others, as by definition a martyr does
 
It now turns out that there are two terrorists in the siege in Paris - a man and a woman - (suspected of being involved in the attack where the policewoman was killed) and they know the original pair who have been on the run North of Paris. Latest reports also say that two hostages have been killed.
 
chadders said:
Where are these "many thousands more" of which you speak?
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You think there aren't thousands of these "Jihadists" living unnoticed in cities and towns across the western world, waiting for their "call to arms", then you're deluded.
 
If i recall correctly the french have a more flexible approach to 'enhanced questioning' (as the americans like to refer to torture these days) they certainly used to have a "code of humane torture" in the 60s and 70s

Thing is that senate report on the CIA waterboarding etc found that it was prety ineffective , principally because the suspect will tell them what he thinks they want to hear rather than the truth. Also most terror organisations are organised on a cell basis so the individual fighters probably don't know much useful info anyway, while if they are home grown nutters they may not even have an organisation to inform on
 
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Bernie174 said:
You'd be surprised what people will tell you, no matter how hard they appear. In any case, while tactics may well have been taught to them, it's less likely conduct after capture was. After all, the idea is to get away, or die in the attempt.

"Severe questioning".....I had to laugh at that. Never questioned anyone have you? It really is nothing like the TV/Films, a bit like waterboarding it really doesn't achieve much.

But anyway, we are jumping the gun at the moment. They may live, they may not. They may tell they may not. But denying them martyrdom is the best outcome.
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:rolleyes: I wouldn't know Bernie, it isn't the sort of thing I ever watch on TV [real or fictional], but perhaps I should have used some inverted commas on 'severe questioning, given it was intended to make you smile and be just a little facetious.
 
viv1969 said:
You think there aren't thousands of these "Jihadists" living unnoticed in cities and towns across the western world, waiting for their "call to arms", then you're deluded.
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while if you think there are then you're paranoid... thee'll be some but it won't be thousands and thousands
 
boyfalldown said:
I would hope that it did mean they rest of their natural life. Certainly Lee Rigby's killers have whole life tariffs. To me its more about forgetting them so they can't inspire others, as by definition a martyr does
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they said that about the IRA bombers - then we had a 'peace process' and let most of them go
 
big soft moose said:
I read somewhere ( i forget where) that MI5 think that there are about a thousand potential islamic terrorists in the UK - while that isnt good its significantly less than the number of potential catholic or protestant terrorists in ulster during the troubles
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big soft moose said:
while if you think there are then you're paranoid... thee'll be some but it won't be thousands and thousands
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err.....
 
exactly, theres about a thousand in the whole uk acording to MI5 - not thousands in every uk city. (also that figure was for 'potential terrorists' ie those who were likely to be radicalised not a secret army of jihadists waiting for their call to arms )
 
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big soft moose said:
while if you think there are then you're paranoid... thee'll be some but it won't be thousands and thousands
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There are upwards of 500 who have gone to join ISIL from the UK, and they reckon there are over 1000 from France. If you then add in the other European countries (Germany has even seen marches by radical Moslems flying the IS flag), and then add the number of radicals who do not go abroad, then I thnk that it is certainly multiple thousands.
 
Yv said:
:rolleyes: I wouldn't know Bernie, it isn't the sort of thing I ever watch on TV [real or fictional], but perhaps I should have used some inverted commas on 'severe questioning, given it was intended to make you smile and be just a little facetious.
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You soon made "us" confess who ate the last box of Jaffa cakes thats for sure :D
 
boyfalldown said:
I would hope that it did mean they rest of their natural life.
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In an ideal world Huge I'd agree,
but there are very very few people, I would suggest serving full life terms,
due to "human rights" and a damned good lawyer...
We can but hope though!
 
andy700 said:
There are upwards of 500 who have gone to join ISIL from the UK, and they reckon there are over 1000 from France. If you then add in the other European countries (Germany has even seen marches by radical Moslems flying the IS flag), and then add the number of radicals who do not go abroad, then I thnk that it is certainly multiple thousands.
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but theres a difference between being a radical gobs***e, and actually picking up a gun or joining the shaheed (those prepared to be suicide bombers) - in some ways the ISIL thing is good because most of those prepared to act will have gone to fight - and good riddance to them, its a damn site easier to hit them with a jdam in iraq

also even if there were thousands who might want to act - in order to do so they've got to lay hands on arms and/or explosives and to do so without either getting caught by the security services or blowing themselves up mixing, and the average guy in the street isnt going to know how to do either. You might see rioting, but armed inssurection by thousands of jihadis, I don't think so
 
Looks like there could be yet another shooting/hostage situation unfolding in Paris......

{Edit} Scratch that, BBC News feed with Facebook update confirming the current situation in the Kosher supermarket
 
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Cobra said:
You soon made "us" confess who ate the last box of Jaffa cakes thats for sure :D
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that'll be because you turned bright pink with guilt
 
You soon made "us" confess who ate the last box of Jaffa cakes thats for sure
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I have now!

because the suspect will tell them what he thinks they want to hear rather than the truth
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Which is something those of us who have done it for a living have always known. And why it always makes me smile when Mr X says he had a confession beaten out of him. Hasn't happened in the UK for years, and I've never seen it happen. Simply because it doesn't work. Usually you'll find Mr X sang like a canary, not a finger or threat was ever made against him, but that doesn't sound as good to his mates.

I wouldn't know Bernie, it isn't the sort of thing I ever watch on TV [real or fictional],
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I realise that. It's actually a lot more subtle than, think more Colombo than Gene Hunt.
 
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big soft moose said:
while if you think there are then you're paranoid... thee'll be some but it won't be thousands and thousands
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I didn't say thousand in every city, I said thousands in cities all over the world. :rolleyes: :banghead:
 
big soft moose said:
exactly, theres about a thousand in the whole uk acording to MI5 - not thousands in every uk city. (also that figure was for 'potential terrorists' ie those who were likely to be radicalised not a secret army of jihadists waiting for their call to arms )
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She said across the western world, not just the UK, and even if they are only 'potential' they will still likely be inspired by the latest round of attacks and impending martyrdom, both directly and by those that aim to radicalise them.
 
big soft moose said:
Thing is that senate report on the CIA waterboarding etc found that it was prety ineffective , principally because the suspect will tell them what he thinks they want to hear rather than the truth.
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This is the same with all torture. It's a useless interrogation technique.
 
Cobra said:
Sure if they are killed they become Martyrs, but are no longer a threat to us.
As for gaining information, I guess that maybe tough, burning bamboo under the fingernails
has been outlawed, as has 240v to the testicles, by the Geneva convention (or what ever it its these days) I believe.
So I can't exactly see them "spilling their guts" as the saying goes,
unless that's via a low velocity round to soft bits, of course.
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They may just crack after being subjected to some of Brash`s crit ;)
 
Cobra said:
That's certainly the way I read it too.
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Thanks :lol: ....It's like trying to hold a rational discussion with Rain Man :rolleyes:
 
Cobra said:
No, Actually, I was talking to, quoting @Yv Yvonne and she is the only one with the real answer. ;)
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Oh I dunno, Bernie has just let me know I can use far better techniques when it comes to Jaffa cakes :D


Back to serious stuff, reports of a 3rd possible incident at the Trocadero in Paris...
 
Yv said:
She said across the western world, not just the UK, and even if they are only 'potential' they will still likely be inspired by the latest round of attacks and impending martyrdom, both directly and by those that aim to radicalise them.
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But apart from the UK, France, Germany, and Bosnia, how many western countries have a significant muslim population ? - there's very few in America/Canada/Austrailia/Japan etc. And even where those do , are those populations sympathetic to AQ/ISIL etc (Islam being just as divided up as christanity so long as we don't do anything moronic to unite them - like nuking Mecca)

I don't doubt that there are several thousand radical muslims in europe who might be willing to become terrorists - but thats very diffeent from an army of jihadis just waiting to strike... paranoia is bad on two counts, 1) because it spreads fear - and if the purpose of terrorism is to terrorise, then we let them win by being terrorised, and 2) because it leads to witch hunts and persecutions (like the reds under the bed paranoia did in 50s america), which also helps the terrorists by driving a wedge between the west and moderate islam.
 
u8myufo said:
They may just crack after being subjected to some of Brash`s crit ;)
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or we could make them listen to 1 direction ;) (the americans actually tried subjecting detainees to loud music - thast didnt work either)
 
viv1969 said:
You think there aren't thousands of these "Jihadists" living unnoticed in cities and towns across the western world, waiting for their "call to arms", then you're deluded.
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You are entirely missing the thrust of my post. :D

I assume the "many thousands" of which you speak are composed of many of the "peaceful Muslims" that we hear so much about. Not the ones living next door or in the next street, then? And quite a few more than the few thousands "possible" jihadists some would have us believe, eh?
 
US= around 2.5 million.
Italy = 1.5 million.

It really doesn't matter how many live in a Country, it matters how many have fundamentalist leanings. As we saw on 9/11, a resident or citizen of a country isn't always who you need to worry about.

In any case, 2 terrorists currently have 80,000 police tied up in France, so you don't need terrorists to make life difficult.
 
Bernie174 said:
In any case, 2 terrorists currently have 80,000 police tied up in France, so you don't need terrorists to make life difficult.
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Absolutely! We ( that is all of the countries) waste far too much time and far too many resources when a situation occurs.
 
One persons paranoia is another person being realistic Pete. Being aware of [and stating that awareness] the potential doesn't make you paranoid or allow them to win. I don't think anyone in this thread recently has said or done anything to indicate they will allow this event in France to affect their lives, stop them doing anything or carry their lives as normal. No one is running round screaming 'OMG they are everywhere' ...well, not unless I post this >> :runaway: :p
 
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