Motorway middle-lane hoggers to face on-the-spot fines

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Uneducated_Rick said:
what about going past a long string of traffic that you legitimately don't need to pull in between one vehicle and the next (not that unusual) - will someone speeding to that degree they may not have been visible when you pulled out

again something I experience fairly often on the A1M
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90 mph isn't that fast in terms of motorway approach speeds and on motorways a car can easily been seen in your wing mirrors at speeds well above 90 mph. If that's a problem for you you shouldn't be on the roads.

Anyway, if you're already there you haven't caused the inconvenience, as long as you move over when its safe.

I honestly can't believe people need this explaining. It's quite worrying.
 
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fuzzyedges said:
In a court of law you cant just say he was speeding Thats why they have calibrated speed guns and if it wasnt calibrated that day you wernt speeding

So what is the distance and how do you measure it for tailgating

Courts do not use common sense as a yard stick only proof
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Eh? What are you talking about?

Speeding is a VERY specific legal issue. And by the way, laser speed guns only need calibrating once a year...

Careless driving can be a number of things. Again, just use your common sense. The distance wouldnt need measuring, the officers observation is sufficient, as it has been for years. I would suggest a car approx 1 metre away from another at 70 mph is tailgating, would you not agree???
 
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joescrivens said:
Nope.

You look and the guy a safe distance away, so you pull out which you are more than entitled to do. Then before you know it he's already on you because he was got annoyed you were about to pull out and sped up to 90mph.

you can try and make it as clear cut as you like but it really sin't
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Yup. You should assess any speed differential as when checking the mirror. Your sense of entitlement could land you being squished.
 
Mirror signal mirror manoeuvre. It's quite simple. If you do a double mirror check then the fast approaching vehicle will be noticeably closer than you expected to be. You then see them tanking up the outside lane so you wait and adjust your speed to pull out behind them. A sensible driver would be observing the general flow of traffic in front and behind at all times anyway.
 
odd jim said:
90 mph isn't that fast in terms of motorway approach speeds and on motorways a car can easily been seen in your wing mirrors at speeds well above 90 mph. If that's a problem for you you shouldn't be on the roads.

Anyway, if you're already there you haven't caused the inconvenience, as long as you move over when its safe.

I honestly can't believe people need this explaining. It's quite worrying.
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going past a queue of traffic 1/4 a mile long, going 70mph past traffic doing 65mph would take 3 minutes and cover 3.5 miles - someone doing 90mph would cover 4.5 miles - visibility behind does not always stretch a mile, it often doesn't cover 1/4 mile
 
I'm waiting for...

"but, but, but what if he was doing 70 when I checked my mirror but then accelerated to 90 before I pulled-out to overtake... but, but, but, BUT. What if...."

:lol:
 
srichards said:
Mirror signal mirror manoeuvre. It's quite simple. If you do a double mirror check then the fast approaching vehicle will be noticeably closer than you expected to be. You then see them tanking up the outside lane so you wait and adjust your speed to pull out behind them. A sensible driver would be observing the general flow of traffic in front and behind at all times anyway.
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it doesn't matter. acording to the traffic rule in the highway code you're in their way no matter whether you got there before them or not. You're inconvieniencing them by being in their way.

the fact they want to speed past you at 90mph because they want to get home for the footy is irrelevant. according to the written rule above you are in te wrong

unless you dont take it as written - which means its really a lot less simple than people would try and make out in this thread
 
ZoneV said:
I'm waiting for...

"but, but, but what if he was doing 70 when I checked my mirror but then accelerated to 90 before I pulled-out to overtake... but, but, but, BUT. What if...."

:lol:
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already covered in post 159 above, keep up son :lol:
 
Uneducated_Rick said:
going past a queue of traffic 1/4 a mile long, going 70mph past traffic doing 65mph would take 3 minutes and cover 3.5 miles - someone doing 90mph would cover 4.5 miles - visibility behind does not always stretch a mile, it often doesn't cover 1/4 mile
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Why would this prevent you seeing the car in your mirror?
 
I would suggest a car approx 1 metre away from another at 70 mph is tailgating, would you not agree??? post odd jim 162
As I said extreme cases but If you take the highway codes (which is not law but can be used in cases) safe distance for braking at 70mph then nearly everycar on the motorway is tailgating
Speeding is NOW a very specific legal issue but it used to be done with a stop watch until the lawyers pointed out that it was innacurate and people were getting away with speeding Lawyers are a lot more cute these days dont think for one minute that if the cop cant proove the distance in a non extreme case that it wont be chucked out
Its an appeasment law
 
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fuzzyedges said:
I would suggest a car approx 1 metre away from another at 70 mph is tailgating, would you not agree???
As I said extreme cases but If you take the highway codes (which is not law but can be used in cases) safe distance for braking at 70mph then nearly everycar on the motorway is tailgating
Speeding is NOW a very specific legal issue but it used to be done with a stop watch until the layers pointed out that it was innacurate and people were getting away with speeding Layers are a lot more cute these days dont think for one minute that if the cop cant proove the distance in a non extreme case that it wont be chucked out
Its an appeasment law
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I can't believe I just read that.

You're totally misinterpreting stopping distances. It doesn't apply to this scenario. Travelling gaps are about reaction times, not stopping distances, as the distance ahead if you is moving at roughly the same speed!

It's about reacting to a car braking ahead of you, not stopping your vehicle in the gap between them.

Christ almighty, I have to back out of this as I can't believe how dumb this has become.
 
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joescrivens said:
already covered in post 159 above, keep up son :lol:
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But, but, but what if my eyes were watering so badly because my baby did a whoopsie in the back (which he's perfectly entitled to do) that I momentarily and unavoidably couldn't see? But, but, but, WHAT IF? :lol:
 
odd jim said:
Why would this prevent you seeing the car in your mirror?
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In the scenario joescrivens posted, I pointed out you could be an inconvenience and put some real world numbers down.

bends in the road
having gone over the brow of a hill
the speeding car being behind a van or lorry when you look
a lorry/van behind you restricting your view
the seeding car having not got onto the main carriageway yet


All could prevent you seeing a car 1 mile away
 
There are a lot of what ifs getting thrown around in here.

It will come down to what is seen at the time of the offence the same as it is with everything else motoring.

people will get away with it for so long then it will catch up with them in the end.
Most if not all motorway police patrols will have camera,s fitted botrh front and rear so if a driver decided that he was not hogging/tailgating then it will be a matter for the court to decide giving the evidence of the police camera film surely??
 
joescrivens said:
it doesn't matter. acording to the traffic rule in the highway code you're in their way no matter whether you got there before them or not. You're inconvieniencing them by being in their way.

the fact they want to speed past you at 90mph because they want to get home for the footy is irrelevant. according to the written rule above you are in te wrong

unless you dont take it as written - which means its really a lot less simple than people would try and make out in this thread
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http://www.pepipoo.com/
post your scenario on there Joe and come back with their more educated response :thumbs:
 
Uneducated_Rick said:
In the scenario joescrivens posted, I pointed out you could be an inconvenience and put some real world numbers down.

bends in the road
having gone over the brow of a hill
the speeding car being behind a van or lorry when you look
a lorry/van behind you restricting your view
the seeding car having not got onto the main carriageway yet


All could prevent you seeing a car 1 mile away
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You are right but by the time you pull out you should have just checked your mirror again and if the car is too close you cannot pull out, is this not what you do when driving, would you pull out on a car travelling faster than you???
 
odd jim said:
I can't believe I just read that.

You're totally misinterpreting stopping distances. It doesn't apply to this scenario. Travelling gaps are about reaction times, not stopping distances, as the distance ahead if you is moving at roughly the same speed!

It's about reacting to a car braking ahead of you, not stopping your vehicle in the gap between them.

Christ almighty, I have to back out of this as I can't believe how dumb this has become.
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And that is why they painted all those chevrons on the M62 lancashire side to show the safe travelling distance between vehicals I wonder where they got those distances from ?
 
Pepipoo sounds familiar.:D
 
fuzzyedges said:
And that is why they painted all those chevrons on the M62 lancashire side to show the safe travelling distance between vehicals I wonder where they got those distances from ?
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Not from the Highway Code stopping distances.
Have you seen the Highway Code numbers?!

The gaps between the chevrons are NOT 96 metres long!

Oh. My. God.

(Walks off and shakes head.)
 
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SpikeK6 said:
You are right but by the time you pull out you should have just checked your mirror again and if the car is too close you cannot pull out, is this not what you do when driving, would you pull out on a car travelling faster than you???
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Real numbers - 1 mile away!!! Checking your mirrors twice a few seconds apart won't help if the car is so far back you can't see it/it is a speck on the horizon!
 
odd jim said:
Not from the Highway Code stopping distances.
Have you seen the Highway Code numbers?!

The gap between the chevrons are NOT 96 metres long!

Oh. My. God.

Walks off and shakes head.
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I always wondered at those distances - clearly much closer than stated in the highway code or calculated by the formula x^2/20+x (x in mph, stopping distance in feet) - who did decide on the arbitrary distance they used :thinking:
 
joescrivens said:
it doesn't matter. acording to the traffic rule in the highway code you're in their way no matter whether you got there before them or not. You're inconvieniencing them by being in their way.

the fact they want to speed past you at 90mph because they want to get home for the footy is irrelevant. according to the written rule above you are in te wrong

unless you dont take it as written - which means its really a lot less simple than people would try and make out in this thread
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If you see them tanking up in the outside lane you don't pull out in front of them in the first place. If you can't see far enough back to make sure it is clear then you don't pull out either. Seems rather simple.
 
odd jim said:
Educated responses? Mine have been. As a traffic cop I've explained where it would be enforced!
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sorry Jim, but your replies are getting lost in all the pepipoo from other posters :D
 
Uneducated_Rick said:
I always wondered at those distances - clearly much closer than stated in the highway code or calculated by the formula x^2/20+x (x in mph, stopping distance in feet) - who did decide on the arbitrary distance they used :thinking:
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They were based from stopping from x speed to a complete halt - in the 1950s using a Ford Anglia! They haven't been updated since.

But those chevron gaps aren't based on that, they're based on reaction time / distance not stopping distance so obviously they will be much shorter.

Anyway, I said I'd be off so I'm going!
 
Uneducated_Rick said:
Real numbers - 1 mile away!!! Checking your mirrors twice a few seconds apart won't help if the car is so far back you can't see it/it is a speck on the horizon!
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If the car is sooo far back and just a speck on the horizon then you have done nothing wrong, you have not caused him to alter his line and not caused him to brake. You will do neither as he is so far back.

when he pulls up behind you its then his turn to alter his driving to the conditions around him, i.e the car that pulled out 4-5 hundred yards in front of him.

Driving is not rocket science its about being safe and not being so self centered thinking you own the road.
 
Uneducated_Rick said:
Real numbers - 1 mile away!!! Checking your mirrors twice a few seconds apart won't help if the car is so far back you can't see it/it is a speck on the horizon!
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If a car travelling at 90 was 1 mile behind you, and you were travelling at 70, it would not affect your overtake as you'd have (quick mental maffs...) 3 mins before it caught you up.
 
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SpikeK6 said:
If the car is sooo far back and just a speck on the horizon then you have done nothing wrong, you have not caused him to alter his line and not caused him to brake. You will do neither as he is so far back.
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post numbers^^^
ZoneV said:
If a car travelling at 90 was 1 mile behind you, and you were travelling at 70, it would not affect your overtake.
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post numbers^^^
odd jim said:
And what you've described above is inconsiderate driving. You should have seen the car in your offside mirror and waited. It makes no odds what speed he's driving at.
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pre numbers^^^

All describing the same scenario - 70mph vs 90mph - funny that once I put real world numbers in it becomes more acceptable and the other driver that should adjust their driving rather than the person pulling out.

I go back to my original post (and the same has been said by many people) - great idea, vastly needed - will be difficult to enforce and a lot of people will challenge it
 
Uneducated_Rick said:
post numbers^^^

post numbers^^^

pre numbers^^^

All describing the same scenario - 70mph vs 90mph - funny that once I put real world numbers in it becomes more acceptable and the other driver that should adjust their driving rather than the person pulling out.

I go back to my original post (and the same has been said by many people) - great idea, vastly needed - will be difficult to enforce and a lot of people will challenge it
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Or they could simply say you failed to give way to a vehicle in the offside overtaking - and take it at that literal angle, as they will be more inclined to do. Ergo, you failed to give way, causing the driver to brake, inconveniencing them. Guilty.

It's the same if a vehicle pulls out from a side road into a main road and fails to give way to a speeding car. The driver pulling into the main road, failing to give way, will ALWAYS be the guilty party by virtue of the fact they failed to give way to the priority traffic (which an offside lane overtake will always be). If the speed was proven to be well in excess it is mitigating, but nothing more than that.

Keep it simple and it's easy.

Anyway, wasnt I off a few posts ago?
 
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redddraggon said:
Just to be clear.....

What is middle lane hogging? Is it driving slowly in the middle lane or just purely staying in the middle lane?

I tend to drive mainly in the middle lane as the left lane is normally packed with lorries doing 50mph. I'd be more than happy driving in the left lane if it was clear to drive normally in.
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Acutally...

If you were on inside lane, pulled out to the middle lane to overtake the first lorry, then you see ahead there is another slow lorry, instead of pulling back into the inside lane, close up on the lorry, overtake it, get back to inside lane, you decided to stay on the middle lane until you have overtook the second lorry then plan to pull back into the middle lane, so...

Surely some overtaking routines is a different from lane hogging? Who is to say someone is doing overtaking and someone else is lane hogging.

For example: You're in the inside lane, there is a car in the front of you, and in the front of that car is a lorry, the car decided to overtake the lorry, and so do you, now the car and you are in the middle lane, then the car decided to pull into the inside lane, but you decided to stay in the middle lane as you wish to overtake the car, as well as the next lorry, so that's not really lane hogging as it is still overtaking?

Isn't it annoying and dangerous for a car to keep pulling out to overtake, pulling in, then suddenly pull out to overtake and pull back in, then again, out, in, out, in?

Isn't lane hogging meant to imply that there are no vehicles on the inside lane, for a couple of miles, and you're just still driving in the middle, there is nothing to overtake, but not mean you are still driving in the middle lane trying to overtake 2, or 3, or 4 more lorries, as Red Dragon points out he drives in the middle lane because the inside lane is still packed with lorries at 50mph?
 
Uneducated_Rick said:
post numbers^^^

post numbers^^^

pre numbers^^^

All describing the same scenario - 70mph vs 90mph - funny that once I put real world numbers in it becomes more acceptable and the other driver that should adjust their driving rather than the person pulling out.

I go back to my original post (and the same has been said by many people) - great idea, vastly needed - will be difficult to enforce and a lot of people will challenge it
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I have edited with numbers but will repeat them here.

If you are travelling at 70 and the car 1 mile behind is travelling at 90, he is closing on you at a rate of 20mph (90-70).

You are 1 mile apart and he is catching you up at a rate of 20mph, which is 0.33 miles per minute (20/60), therefore it will take him 3 minutes to close the 1 mile gap between you.

Plenty of time for a safe overtake.
 
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ZoneV said:
I'm waiting for...

"but, but, but what if he was doing 70 when I checked my mirror but then accelerated to 90 before I pulled-out to overtake... but, but, but, BUT. What if...."

:lol:
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ZoneV is correct, it can happen, I've seen something like that around once in a while, sometimes a driver sees you pulling out to overtake, and is thinking something like No way you are going in the front of me! so speed up in order to try to overtake you before you pull out to overtake the vehicle in front of you.
 
Major Eazy said:
Isn't it annoying and dangerous for a car to keep pulling out to overtake, pulling in, then suddenly pull out to overtake and pull back in, then again, out, in, out, in?
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Well if they do it suddenly, it is dangerous. If they do it correctly by using MSM then it isn't

Isn't lane hogging meant to imply that there are no vehicles on the inside lane, for a couple of miles, and you're just still driving in the middle, there is nothing to overtake, but not mean you are still driving in the middle lane trying to overtake 2, or 3, or 4 more lorries, as Red Dragon points out he drives in the middle lane because the inside lane is still packed with lorries at 50mph?
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It depends entirely on the distance between said slower moving vehicles, and how much slower they are moving really. Say you are moving 10mph faster than the vehicles in the left lane, and those vehicles are spaced (say) 500 yards apart, it would still take you over 1.5 minutes to overtake each vehicle. Ample time to pull over and pull out again safely.

But if you are travelling 25mph faster the time to overtake is obviously much less, which suggests staying in lane would be the right choice.
 
Uneducated_Rick said:
post numbers^^^

post numbers^^^

pre numbers^^^

All describing the same scenario - 70mph vs 90mph - funny that once I put real world numbers in it becomes more acceptable and the other driver that should adjust their driving rather than the person pulling out.

I go back to my original post (and the same has been said by many people) - great idea, vastly needed - will be difficult to enforce and a lot of people will challenge it
Click to expand...

Why do I need to post numbers I was just answering a question

Does it matter whether you are doing 70 and the other car is doing 100 if he is a spot on the horizon then you are safe to pull out as my post says then he has to adjust to you.

If you are doing 70 and he is doing 100 and when you pull out he is 100 yars away and big in your mirrors then you do not pull out simples as like I said you have caused him to alter line and speed.

as its been said also if you cannot make a judgement if anything is there like you said bend hump van in way then you cannot pull out surely as you have no line of vision to make a clear decision if its safe or not.

As jim has pointed out many times the laws are not black and white and will need to be judged on each case but I bet my last pound that if it did go to court and you where seen hogging or tailgating on camera then you would loose.

When you watch these police stop programs it never shows you a car pulling out and being caught by another vehicle as thats not tail gating, you pulling out and driving along for a reasonable distance with the car still 1m off your bumper then that would be deemed tailgating as the following car has not adjusted to the situation in hand.
 
There are parts of the motorway network where it's simply not safe to drive in lane 1 if you're towing

potholes filled with 1/2 a bag of tarmac whacked in with a shovel, ruts that deep they send my trailer off into a weave

they need to sort lane 1 out before prosecuting people for not driving in it, the bit coming up to J1 M6 southbound is that bad I refuse to drive in it
 
When I drive on UK motorways I abide by the Highway Code and use the correct lane discipline. If I can do it, why can't others here do it? It really isn't difficult. I don't have to torture myself with ridiculous "what if" scenarios. I look ahead, judge, anticipate and drive accordingly, moving back to the inner lane when safe to do so as per the Highway Code.
 
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