Mirrorless Options

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jonnybloo

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Hi, I’ve had a good read and research, but I’m looking for an opinion with regards to my circumstances.

I currently have a Canon 6d, 50mm sigma, 70-200 canon, 40mm pancake, 105mm macro. Its took me a while to get to this point and I love the camera. Since having 2 little kids I’ve found that whenever we travel or go out, I don’t take it. I have enough to do carrying the kids and the paraphernalia that comes with them :) Occasionally I will just take the body+40mm just for discretion and to see if I can sneak it into the wife’s bag without her knowing :)

It would be nice to have a smaller more travel friendly setup, but with good image quality and practical.

Therefore I started looking at some of the mirrorless options, it seems a minefield. I’m not looking at selling all my gear, maybe a lens or 2 to finance it. So the top end/latest are ruled out. For arguments sake let’s say under £1000 (but probably more £600 !)

Here’s what I’m looking for:

  1. Body + at least one excellent quality lens equiv to about 30/35mm

  2. Image Quality and AF as priority

  3. Reasonable choice and second hand market with lenses

  4. Compact and light enough to travel

  5. Long term I may replace the canon setup completely I would need to make sure I’m happy with image quality etc first though, so for now it’s to run alongside as a light option

I’ve looked at a few options but I’m probably clouding the issue. I appreciate I may be being a bit presumptuous and I have no idea how these mirrorless options fair in terms of image quality and sharpness compared to the 6D? how the m43 compares against the larger Fuji etc

Panasonic GX8 looks very nice and seems to tick the boxes albeit on the expensive side. Am I right in thinking all Olympus / Pana lenses work on these?

Olympus EM-10 As above – smaller and lighter, but 16MP compared to 20mp

Fuji – XE2 seems to be well liked after recent firmware updates, would that hold up in terms of the image against the 2 above ? Is the XT-10 a better option? The fuji’s look stunning cameras but is the lens market limited and expensive? Ie the 23mm seems to be the lens of choice but costs a fair whack too

Basically, for a self-confessed pixel peeper, can I get a compact, light, travel friendly setup that would still produce excellent detail and focus quickly? :)

Thanks


Jon
 
I'm in the process of selling all my Nikon FF gear and going to go for the Fuji X system.

I've read loads of reviews and, like you, wanted the best IQ I could get.

XT-1 is what I'm going to go for.

Take a look at some of these shots: Especially the elephants in the portfolio section.

Those made up my mind for me.

http://www.bencherryphotos.com/

Good luck in your quest Jon.

Terry.
 
6d and 40mm is going to be not much bigger than what you are now looking for. Why not just sling the 6d with the 40mm on a black rapid so it's always ready but not in the way.
 
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jonnybloo said:
I currently have a Canon 6d, 50mm sigma, 70-200 canon, 40mm pancake, 105mm macro. Its took me a while to get to this point and I love the camera. Since having 2 little kids I’ve found that whenever we travel or go out, I don’t take it. I have enough to do carrying the kids and the paraphernalia that comes with them :) Occasionally I will just take the body+40mm just for discretion and to see if I can sneak it into the wife’s bag without her knowing :)
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I was in almost exactly this situation 12 months ago (same number of kids but slightly different Canon setup). I'd had a Fuji X100 for a while and found myself using that much more than my dSLR due to the portability, and the image quality was on a par with my Canon. I ended up selling all of my Canon gear and switching to a Fuji X-T1. I have no regrets.

You might want to wait a month or two for the Fuji X-T2 to be announced (current rumour is July). You can either spring for that, or pick up a used X-T1 as the prices are bound to drop.
 
RichLewis said:
I was in almost exactly this situation 12 months ago (same number of kids but slightly different Canon setup). I'd had a Fuji X100 for a while and found myself using that much more than my dSLR due to the portability, and the image quality was on a par with my Canon. I ended up selling all of my Canon gear and switching to a Fuji X-T1. I have no regrets.

You might want to wait a month or two for the Fuji X-T2 to be announced (current rumour is July). You can either spring for that, or pick up a used X-T1 as the prices are bound to drop.
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XT2 will be way out of budget.
 
So it seems Fuji is the way to go for IQ then? Do the Pan/Olympus even get close?

I like the lens options on the M43, but im only planning on one lens initially so it still covers Fuji

Some great photos there Terry. The problem i have is all samples i find are so subjective and often corrected too. Without being able to get hold and test each one it feels like im making massive assumptions on what the IQ is like.

Photopaque - I guess that part of the issue, i need to go find some of these and actually look at them and compare feel/size. Whilst the 40mm is a cracking little lens, every other combination of lens makes it just that bit less accessible. If i stick the 50mm on its just to cumbersome. I started lookig at wider options (Sigma 35mm again, 24-35, 17-40 etc) but then i wondered if i would use it as much with the size. For now i would keep the 6d anyway - like i say - i love it, just trying to figure out if there is a way i can be a bit more mobile. Weve a holiday coming up and the DSLR and any lens other than the 40mm is a pain. Not so much when its just me, or the missus, more when we have 5x camel loads of gear for the 2 little un's :)
 
Juat a word of warning...
I had a 5D3 and all the lenses. Like you I wanted something smaller and more compact for days out with SWMBO. No intention of swapping systems. I bought a s/h X-T1 on here and before long found that I was only using that. Sold all the Canon gear and now just use the Fuji. I'm not a dedicated pixel peeper, but the fooj will easily print out at A3 with no discernible loss of quality. And it's just so much lighter and easier to use.
Lots of images on the X-T1 thread for you to pore over, if you are going down that road.
https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/fuji-x-t1-x-t10-owners-thread.527428/
 
jonnybloo said:
So it seems Fuji is the way to go for IQ then? Do the Pan/Olympus even get close?

I like the lens options on the M43, but im only planning on one lens initially so it still covers Fuji

Some great photos there Terry. The problem i have is all samples i find are so subjective and often corrected too. Without being able to get hold and test each one it feels like im making massive assumptions on what the IQ is like.

Photopaque - I guess that part of the issue, i need to go find some of these and actually look at them and compare feel/size. Whilst the 40mm is a cracking little lens, every other combination of lens makes it just that bit less accessible. If i stick the 50mm on its just to cumbersome. I started lookig at wider options (Sigma 35mm again, 24-35, 17-40 etc) but then i wondered if i would use it as much with the size. For now i would keep the 6d anyway - like i say - i love it, just trying to figure out if there is a way i can be a bit more mobile. Weve a holiday coming up and the DSLR and any lens other than the 40mm is a pain. Not so much when its just me, or the missus, more when we have 5x camel loads of gear for the 2 little un's :)
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There is a significant size and weight difference.... if you lose the viewfinder you can go even smaller.

Screen Shot 2016-06-07 at 11.17.17.png
 
One thing I do like is the aperture ring on Fuji lenses. That maybe a throwback to the days of my youth (a long time ago) when film lenses all had aperture rings. May just be my style, but I like to change aperture on the lens. Others may (and probably will) have different viewpoints!
 
Richlewis mickledore. Thankyou for sharing your experiences. Very encouraging to hear the similar situations and that you are happy with your choices.

I will crawl through the fuji thread at lunch.

P.s I had to Google SWMBO
 
I had a similar crisis and for me it was like this.

FUJI lovely but optical view finder still not the best, IQ probably is though, lenses frightening expensive.

Olympus ended up for me the best balance, I went for an EM5-II with a small collection of primes, its really lovely.
 
I totally use Fuji, from Nikon.

If you shoot sports stay with a DSLR, otherwise move to the lighter side.
 
Mr Bump said:
I had a similar crisis and for me it was like this.

FUJI lovely but optical view finder still not the best, IQ probably is though, lenses frightening expensive.

Olympus ended up for me the best balance, I went for an EM5-II with a small collection of primes, its really lovely.
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Optical viewfinder? If you meant EVF, the XT1 has the best EVF on the market except possibly the SL and A7rii. Like for like lenses are not expensive.
 
jonnybloo said:
So it seems Fuji is the way to go for IQ then? Do the Pan/Olympus even get close?
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I suggest you hold a Fuji and some M43 cameras. The Fuji is somewhere in between your 6D and an M43 and closer to the 6D if IIRC. I have a 6D and just got an Olympus EM5 ii to replace a Panny G3. I was always happy with the G3 for general shooting but it was getting dated and was poor at higher ISO, the EM5 is a very good all-rounder. Obviously you don't get that FF shallow DoF but for general shooting and displaying on the Web/telly etc. you would be hard pressed to tell the shots apart from the 6D. The EM10 body is even lighter than the EM5 and with a pancake lens would go in a jacket pocket. The EM5 plus 4 lenses (giving 18mm-400mm FF equivalent plus filters and bits and pieces) go in one small bag

So I guess it depends, do you want to replace the 6D or have a really small capable second camera?
 
jonnybloo said:
Richlewis mickledore. Thankyou for sharing your experiences. Very encouraging to hear the similar situations and that you are happy with your choices.

I will crawl through the fuji thread at lunch.

P.s I had to Google SWMBO
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Might have to take an extended lunch to get through that thread. As the others have said Fuji, imo, are great cameras and lenses - as most reviews agree - but ultimate pixel peeping and sports is where Fuji are just behind some camera/lens combinations at the moment
 
twist said:
XT2 will be way out of budget.
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Yeah, I just re-read and saw the budget. However, I'd expect the X-T1 used prices to drop when the X-T2 is announced, so it might still be worth waiting.
 
jonnybloo said:
<snip>
I currently have a Canon 6d, 50mm sigma, 70-200 canon, 40mm pancake, 105mm macro. Its took me a while to get to this point and I love the camera. Since having 2 little kids I’ve found that whenever we travel or go out, I don’t take it. <snip>
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I know the feeling. That's the kind of outfit to take on a dedicated photo trip, not out with the family. It's not just the size/weight, it's also the number of items and how you carry them all. My solution is a 24-105L on 5D2, hanging from a Black Rapid sling-strap. There's not much you can't have a good go at there, and you hardly know it's there.

If you've never tried a sling strap, you'll be amazed at the difference it makes :thumbs:
 
twist said:
Optical viewfinder? If you meant EVF, the XT1 has the best EVF on the market except possibly the SL and A7rii. Like for like lenses are not expensive.
Click to expand...

When I looked at the EVF on the XT-1 versus the EM5-II I thought the Fuji one was inferior.
my opinion maybe but I would check them all out if your like the EVF.
 
Mr Bump said:
When I looked at the EVF on the XT-1 versus the EM5-II I thought the Fuji one was inferior.
my opinion maybe but I would check them all out if your like the EVF.
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Yeah, it definitely worth handling the cameras, after using loads of CSCs I think the handling/quirks are far more 'personal' than say differences between DSLR manufacturers.
 
twist said:
Yeah, it definitely worth handling the cameras, after using loads of CSCs I think the handling/quirks are far more 'personal' than say differences between DSLR manufacturers.
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very much so, I liked the Olympus because it felt very like my old Nikon fe2 film camera.
looking at your budget thou @ £600 I do not see many options.
 
Mr Bump said:
very much so, I liked the Olympus because it felt very like my old Nikon fe2 film camera.
looking at your budget thou @ £600 I do not see many options.
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Not me thats looking mate :)
 
sirch said:
I suggest you hold a Fuji and some M43 cameras. The Fuji is somewhere in between your 6D and an M43 and closer to the 6D if IIRC. I have a 6D and just got an Olympus EM5 ii to replace a Panny G3. I was always happy with the G3 for general shooting but it was getting dated and was poor at higher ISO, the EM5 is a very good all-rounder. Obviously you don't get that FF shallow DoF but for general shooting and displaying on the Web/telly etc. you would be hard pressed to tell the shots apart from the 6D. The EM10 body is even lighter than the EM5 and with a pancake lens would go in a jacket pocket. The EM5 plus 4 lenses (giving 18mm-400mm FF equivalent plus filters and bits and pieces) go in one small bag

So I guess it depends, do you want to replace the 6D or have a really small capable second camera?
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This about sums it up. Either sell up the Canon and go for a middle-sized system like the Fujis, or start a second system in m43. m43 can get properly small if you go for something like the E-PLs, with a pancake lens they're compact camera size.

You'd struggle to find complaint with the image quality either. Everything from the E-PM2 upwards (including the E-PL5) has the famous 16MP E-M5 sensor which is excellent.

The lens sets for M43 can be made really small. For travel I use the Pana 14mm f/2.5, Oly 17mm f/2.8, and Oly 45mm f/1.8 on an E-PL5 with an optical viewfinder. All nice and fast and good quality lenses, particularly the 45mm which is outstanding in all areas. I might upgrade the 17mm to the f/1.8 version for better low light action. Plus I've just added the 8mm fisheye which to the best of my knowledge is the cheapest ultra-wide available. A remarkable lens.

You can't really go wrong with either system but m43 has far more choice in lenses, is probably quite a bit cheaper, and smaller too.
 
Just sold all my FF Nikon gear and now have the X pro2 and X100T. Currently using the 23 f1.4 and 35 f1.4. All of a sudden photography as become fun again and I can happily walk round all day with fuji gear and my back and shoulder doesn't complain. I am getting far more flickr explores than I did with the Nikon and the sooc jpegs are amazing to work with. The 23 and 35 are both incredibly sharp and I would consider them on a par or better iq than the sigma art lens I owned. Yes battery life is a bit crap but at £5 to £15 for third party equivalents, carrying an extra in your pocket is not an issue. Best move I ever made when it comes to photography.
 
martsharm said:
This about sums it up. Either sell up the Canon and go for a middle-sized system like the Fujis, or start a second system in m43. m43 can get properly small if you go for something like the E-PLs, with a pancake lens they're compact camera size.

You'd struggle to find complaint with the image quality either. Everything from the E-PM2 upwards (including the E-PL5) has the famous 16MP E-M5 sensor which is excellent.

The lens sets for M43 can be made really small. For travel I use the Pana 14mm f/2.5, Oly 17mm f/2.8, and Oly 45mm f/1.8 on an E-PL5 with an optical viewfinder. All nice and fast and good quality lenses, particularly the 45mm which is outstanding in all areas. I might upgrade the 17mm to the f/1.8 version for better low light action. Plus I've just added the 8mm fisheye which to the best of my knowledge is the cheapest ultra-wide available. A remarkable lens.

You can't really go wrong with either system but m43 has far more choice in lenses, is probably quite a bit cheaper, and smaller too.
Click to expand...

Bik likes from me I have the EM5-II with Oly 17mm F1.8 / Oly 25mm F1.8 and the 45mm and it is superb.
 
I can only speak from A Fuji perspective as I haven't used any other mirrorless cameras but, given you like the 40mm on the 6D, the field of view equivalent would be the Fuji 27mm f2.8. Combined with an X-E2, that would seem to be a very nice, compact solution and can be had new from WEX for £728 which is well within your initial £1,000 budget and easily within the secondary budget of £600 if you're prepared to buy second hand.
 
martsharm said:
This about sums it up. Either sell up the Canon and go for a middle-sized system like the Fujis, or start a second system in m43. m43 can get properly small if you go for something like the E-PLs, with a pancake lens they're compact camera size.

You'd struggle to find complaint with the image quality either. Everything from the E-PM2 upwards (including the E-PL5) has the famous 16MP E-M5 sensor which is excellent.

The lens sets for M43 can be made really small. For travel I use the Pana 14mm f/2.5, Oly 17mm f/2.8, and Oly 45mm f/1.8 on an E-PL5 with an optical viewfinder. All nice and fast and good quality lenses, particularly the 45mm which is outstanding in all areas. I might upgrade the 17mm to the f/1.8 version for better low light action. Plus I've just added the 8mm fisheye which to the best of my knowledge is the cheapest ultra-wide available. A remarkable lens.

You can't really go wrong with either system but m43 has far more choice in lenses, is probably quite a bit cheaper, and smaller too.
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I think you would be surprised how small the Fujis can get... but yeah, generally, smaller sensor means smaller lenses.

Screen Shot 2016-06-07 at 12.00.17.png
 
twist said:
I think you would be surprised how small the Fujis can get... but yeah, generally, smaller sensor means smaller lenses.

View attachment 66309
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Quite right, I was surprised at how small the X-T10 is. The lens lineup is difficult to compare because Fuji seem to aim for a more premium spec, with wide apertures rather than slower pancakes, whereas with m43 you can choose which approach you want. The 90mm equiv portrait lens is a lot bigger for Fuji for example. But yes, there's not that much in it body-wise. Probably because there's not much in it in terms of sensor size, particularly if you prefer the 4/3 crop. You're losing about 8% top and bottom with m43 v APS-C, and about 13% at each side.
 
Some really useful replies here, thank you all.

I
Mr Bump said:
I had a similar crisis and for me it was like this.
FUJI lovely but optical view finder still not the best, IQ probably is though, lenses frightening expensive.
Olympus ended up for me the best balance, I went for an EM5-II with a small collection of primes, its really lovely.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response, its definetly turned into more of a Fuji love in than i was expecting, so i appreciate the opinion. I do like the lens options for M43, though i guess if i pick right and pick once i only need one or two lenses, I was hoping to move away from paying £600-800 for a lens. Those days have gone now, its more what i can finance with selling other things!

martsharm said:
This about sums it up. Either sell up the Canon and go for a middle-sized system like the Fujis, or start a second system in m43. m43 can get properly small if you go for something like the E-PLs, with a pancake lens they're compact camera size.
You can't really go wrong with either system but m43 has far more choice in lenses, is probably quite a bit cheaper, and smaller too.
Click to expand...

I guess this is the stumbling block. If i could have everything i have now in a smaller factor, i would sell the lot. I dont want to commit though in case im disapointed - the unknown. Chances are if i am as happy as the rest of the comments above then i will sell the lot and move fully. But.....what if im not, then i guess a cheaper M43 with 35mm equiv lens for travel and convemience would be run alongside what i have.

I wasnt expecting such positive responses from people who have moved from FF, so thats made me more optimistic that this could be a replacement, in which case my budget would be higher.

With that in mind, and for arguing either system. If i was to buy one lens that is good value (can be resold) and is excellent quality, something that doesnt break the bank but fully demonstrates the cameras capabilities, roughly 30-35mm (if its was FF, so whatever the equivalent is), what would people recommend for either system?
 
Personally if you are happy with the big DSLR for UK then just leave that alone for now.#
look at a used GX8 with a prime just to take on one trip.
 
martsharm said:
Quite right, I was surprised at how small the X-T10 is. The lens lineup is difficult to compare because Fuji seem to aim for a more premium spec, with wide apertures rather than slower pancakes, whereas with m43 you can choose which approach you want. The 90mm equiv portrait lens is a lot bigger for Fuji for example. But yes, there's not that much in it body-wise. Probably because there's not much in it in terms of sensor size, particularly if you prefer the 4/3 crop. You're losing about 8% top and bottom with m43 v APS-C, and about 13% at each side.
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You should be comparing like for like though... which you arent doing. Then consider the Fuji 56 (85) is f1.8 and the Leica is f2.4 equiv and 35 (50) is f2 and the PL is 2.8 in terms of DOF.

Screen Shot 2016-06-07 at 12.27.57.png

Screen Shot 2016-06-07 at 12.30.27.png
 
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Mr Bump said:
Personally if you are happy with the big DSLR for UK then just leave that alone for now.#
look at a used GX8 with a prime just to take on one trip.
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Interestingly no one has mentioned the GX8 (i dont think), from what ive seen people seem to go for the Olympus first. Given the costs of say the GX8 compared to the Olympus EM-5 MkII is there much difference? he marketing spiel cites a 20.3 sensor in the GX8 - IQ wise how does the GX8 cope against the Fuji or the olympus?
 
I smell G.A.S. And nothing wrong with that, but IMHO that's not the problem - you'll still end up with a bag full of clobber. It might be an inch smaller and weigh a little less, but if all you want is smaller and lighter, the Canon entry level DSLRs are tiny and very light, eg 100D is 407g and 117mm long.

If you do go the mirrorless route, a single zoom lens on a sling strap will still be the liberating factor :)
 
When I can't be bothered lugging my D700 round, I take an XT-10 with a 27mm lens on. It's significantly smaller and lighter and will fit in a coat pocket. Image quality is more than good enough! Second-hand, that combo would come in below £600 - or you could maybe afford an 18-55 zoom if you could find one at a good price!
 
twist said:
You should be comparing like for like though... which you arent doing. Then consider the Fuji 56 (85) is f1.8 and the Leica is f2.4 equiv and 35 (50) is f2 and the PL is 2.8 in terms of DOF.

View attachment 66310

View attachment 66311
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Well done for all that.

The salient point is that m43 does offer some small packages, smaller than what's available with Fuji. You've chosen the big beast options above, whereas the OP wants as compact as possible.

Yes, the specs are not exactly the same, we can see that, although they are similar. Sometimes people value size over specs, sometimes the other way around. I take it you have bought some Fuji gear and are very pleased with it. I'm happy for you.
 
HoppyUK said:
I smell G.A.S. And nothing wrong with that, but IMHO that's not the problem - you'll still end up with a bag full of clobber. It might be an inch smaller and weigh a little less, but if all you want is smaller and lighter, the Canon entry level DSLRs are tiny and very light, eg 100D is 407g and 117mm long.

If you do go the mirrorless route, a single zoom lens on a sling strap will still be the liberating factor :)
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Ha ha maybe! I enjoy taking photos. I used to have time. Kids limit that. Though I do enjoy time with my kids more, usually :)

The kit I have now gets less use. I'm possibly convincing myself smaller kit fits my lifestyle and gets more use. The days of me spending selfishly are gone. Any purchases are done through selling other kit. So it has to be right!

Just to clarify, I don't ever take all my kit out, usually just one lens ie 50mm but even that (on a strap to) is a bit too cumbersome. Plus I need something wider. Something that gets photos of the family plus cities/travel. A wide pancake for the canon would do!
 
martsharm said:
Well done for all that.

The salient point is that m43 does offer some small packages, smaller than what's available with Fuji. You've chosen the big beast options above, whereas the OP wants as compact as possible.

Yes, the specs are not exactly the same, we can see that, although they are similar. Sometimes people value size over specs, sometimes the other way around. I take it you have bought some Fuji gear and are very pleased with it. I'm happy for you.
Click to expand...

But there's no point in making comparisons unless it's like for like. It wasn't just the big option, I pointed out the epl5 equiv which is the same size. Don't talk about equivalent If all you mean is focal length.

And I'm pleased you like your m43.
 
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