Mansion tax

If it was gibberish then why is the gap between rich and poor increasing? What about doing what thousands of high earners do and putting your income into a trust in Jersey, which will then lend the investor back the money which isn't subject to income tax. Are people on £15k a year doing that?

As for the arbitrary need to define rich or successful or super duper mega rich, does it need exact figures, and if so why?

Depends on their financial outlays. If for example someone retired witha 15k pension, they could take their state pension invest their private pension money in such a trust. I'm sure it's there for all to use regardless of whether it's a few million or a few thousand.

I'd say no it doesn't need defining as if we're all treated the same there would be no need.
 
No now you move the goalposts to suit your argument. We move on from personal taxation to corporate taxation :bang::bang::bang:

I think you will find that Amazon are charged a fee for using the internet, like you and me. Only theirs will be significantly higher.

Hundreds of civil servants were under investigation for for setting up personal companies so as to avoid being taxed as employees in the public sector. One person earned £182,000 with no deductions for NI or tax. 2,000 could be avoiding the full tax rate according to research. Why won't they pay their share?

As for Amazon I don't think you can make a case for them, but you could try.
 
Indeed! The State demands tax from peoples' earnings, demands tax when when people spend on anything and now, because that doesn't seem to provide the State with enough for all their spending plans, seem to want to tax peoples' possessions.

Which begs the simple question, whose stuff is it? Should everything belong to the State or should people possess anything for themselves?




It sounds as though some [rich] people want to keep their own stuff their own as above! How can you argue with that?

Of course, taxing the rich is cheap soundbite politics and pathetically unachievable, at least until a State does confiscate and steal all possessions!

Taxing the rich has to be consensual and reasonable to be effective and actually take any money, because, unlike hospital cleaners or shop assistants, they're the folk who can and do simply move elsewhere to a different tax regime.


The argument is that the wealth trickles down, when it actually flows offshore. You can't have it both ways that the rich buy XYZ when they keep their large fortunes away from the taxman.

As for consensual and reasonable they will hardly be left without a pot to urinate in.
 
If you are just falling in that bracket is it not just worth paying that into a pension if you're are giving 40% away in taxes?

No because you only pay 40% on that small part of it which is over the threshold, not all of it.


Steve.
 
Looking at young people today, how will they afford to buy a house???

People have been asking that question for the last thirty years that I know of, and probably longer, yet people still manage to buy houses.


Steve.
 
The argument is that the wealth trickles down, when it actually flows offshore. You can't have it both ways that the rich buy XYZ when they keep their large fortunes away from the taxman.

As for consensual and reasonable they will hardly be left without a pot to urinate in.

The first point is exactly my argument - that wealth might well trickle down if it's left in the country. Attack wealth to score easy points and it runs away abroad!

Equally it isn't the rich who are left without a pot to urinate in ... it's those same popularist attackers who end up receiving less tax take :bang:


... oh no they don't - they maintain their schemes by taxing the lower paid ever more heavily!!
 
No because you only pay 40% on that small part of it which is over the threshold, not all of it.


Steve.

Yes I know that! That's why said pay it into your pension. If he's £2000 over the threshold he could pay it into a pension and not pay any tax on it, at the moment he only ends up with £1200 of it.
 
Looking at young people today, how will they afford to buy a house???

They can't that's why house prices can not continue. Banks ask for 3.5 years earnings when working out a mortgage, so in theory the average house price should be 3.5 x average household income £35-£40k which is £122k-£140k, but there probably more like £170k-£200k.
 
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don't think the people that make nuclear wareheads have a huge demand lol

and TBH I don't care about the people involved with the making and upkeep of nuclear weapons either. we would be saving a heck of a load of cash in the long run that can be spent on more important things. I'll be glad when we get independance and the subs will be gone from faslane.

I can't see independence happening, the arguments for it are poor. Living near Faslane I won't vote for anything that will threaten it.
 
Ideally we would have a government that would forget about spending billions on new nuclear weapons and spend it on welfare, schools etc.

Those nukes provide a lot of jobs!
(Skilled and relatively high paid)
 
Even if cases like that are a minority, just one would be too many. Pregnant at 14 and we've been paying ever since.
 
Give her food stamps so they will not starve but no cash.
 
Super rich like Buffett is something different entirely. Its absolutely obscene the wealth of the top 5-10% they could solve the third world debts instantly, i don't know how they can sleep at night.

Sourced from Wikipedia: A study by the World Institute for Development Economics Research at United Nations University reports that the richest 1% of adults alone owned 40% of global assets in the year 2000, and that the richest 10% of adults accounted for 85% of the world total.

Before you judge too much I'm prepared to bet every person reading this forum, including you & I, falls into the richest 10% of the world population. But thats dragging way OT.
 
nilagin said:
Even if cases like that are a minority, just one would be too many. Pregnant at 14 and we've been paying ever since.

So what would you do about it? It's all very easy to complain about these extreme cases (which are usually massively inflated by the press) but what would you actually do about it? Let them all starve? Throw them in prison? Melt them down for soap?

The demonisation of people on benefits (including the disabled) is disgusting.
 
So what would you do about it? It's all very easy to complain about these extreme cases (which are usually massively inflated by the press) but what would you actually do about it? Let them all starve? Throw them in prison? Melt them down for soap?

The demonisation of people on benefits (including the disabled) is disgusting.

So you think she is justified??? Of course not. Yes, this may be a rare occasion but there are many similar with say 4 or 5 kids. People need to take responsibility but until we stop rolling over they never will and will continue to take advantage. The benefits system should be there to support those in genuine need. If you want to have 5,6, or 10 kids thats up to you but dont expect the taxpayer to pay for it.

The program in ITV about Aylesbury jail sums it up. These scum taking people hostage and smashing things up. Just give them an extra 5 years in a small dark room. We are far too soft. They all know how to play the system.
 
So what would you do about it? It's all very easy to complain about these extreme cases (which are usually massively inflated by the press) but what would you actually do about it? Let them all starve? Throw them in prison? Melt them down for soap?

The demonisation of people on benefits (including the disabled) is disgusting.
As rjbell wrote, give her food stamps instead of cash, make it hard for her to abuse the system. Make her continue to live in the two houses she already has and stop wasting anymore money on her.
It's because of people like her that people take a dim view of those on benefits. Problem is she's got a few more years child bearing years left, I bet she isn't finished yet.
Perhaps you'd like to contribute more to her money making spree. Don't see why the rest of us should.
 
nilagin said:
As rjbell wrote, give her food stamps instead of cash, make it hard for her to abuse the system. Make her continue to live in the two houses she already has and stop wasting anymore money on her.
It's because of people like her that people take a dim view of those on benefits. Problem is she's got a few more years child bearing years left, I bet she isn't finished yet.
Perhaps you'd like to contribute more to her money making spree. Don't see why the rest of us should.

You obviously didn't read the article, but decided to make up your own back story instead. I didn't see anything about what benefits she gets. Just that she's getting the use of a new council property, paid for by a private developer. Big deal.

But back to your alternative, just how hard do you want to make it for the kids? You've kindly suggested food stamps, what about shoes? Should they be made to go bare foot? How about heating? Clothes? School trips? Books?

I'm genuinely interested to know how much they'd need to suffer, for you to feel you're getting value.
 
You obviously didn't read the article, but decided to make up your own back story instead. I didn't see anything about what benefits she gets. Just that she's getting the use of a new council property, paid for by a private developer. Big deal.

But back to your alternative, just how hard do you want to make it for the kids? You've kindly suggested food stamps, what about shoes? Should they be made to go bare foot? How about heating? Clothes? School trips? Books?

I'm genuinely interested to know how much they'd need to suffer, for you to feel you're getting value.

Send the kids to the mines!
 
As rjbell wrote, give her food stamps instead of cash, make it hard for her to abuse the system. Make her continue to live in the two houses she already has and stop wasting anymore money on her.
It's because of people like her that people take a dim view of those on benefits. Problem is she's got a few more years child bearing years left, I bet she isn't finished yet.
Perhaps you'd like to contribute more to her money making spree. Don't see why the rest of us should.

But Heather battled cervical cancer last year – meaning she will never have children again.

It would seem she is finished.
 
You obviously didn't read the article, but decided to make up your own back story instead. I didn't see anything about what benefits she gets. Just that she's getting the use of a new council property, paid for by a private developer. Big deal.

But back to your alternative, just how hard do you want to make it for the kids? You've kindly suggested food stamps, what about shoes? Should they be made to go bare foot? How about heating? Clothes? School trips? Books?

I'm genuinely interested to know how much they'd need to suffer, for you to feel you're getting value.

So where is the deterrent in other people doing the same? What about when she brings up these 11 kids to basically live off the taxpayer?

But how is this any different to Jimmy Carr doing what he did, or Amazon not paying tax that many people seem to object to?
 
cambsno said:
So where is the deterrent in other people doing the same? What about when she brings up these 11 kids to basically live off the taxpayer?

But how is this any different to Jimmy Carr doing what he did, or Amazon not paying tax that many people seem to object to?

I'm not excusing what you believe her back story is (again, the article doesn't mention anything about any benefits, other than a council house), but ultimately you're talking about punishing children. So man-up and be honest about it. You want children to suffer, in the mistaken expectation that this will somehow result in you paying less tax.

Quite what it's got to do with the proposed mansion tax, I don't know.
 
I'm not excusing what you believe her back story is (again, the article doesn't mention anything about any benefits, other than a council house), but ultimately you're talking about punishing children. So man-up and be honest about it. You want children to suffer, in the mistaken expectation that this will somehow result in you paying less tax.

Quite what it's got to do with the proposed mansion tax, I don't know.

Because things like a mansion tax would not be needed if benefits were for those in real need - not because you are too lazy to work or cant keep your legs shut!

Why would the children suffer in the house they are in, why is it societys fault and not the parents?
 
cambsno said:
Because things like a mansion tax would not be needed if benefits were for those in real need - not because you are too lazy to work or cant keep your legs shut!

Why would the children suffer in the house they are in, why is it societys fault and not the parents?

Another sweeping generalisation, based on nothing more than your own imagination and prejudice. Or do you have a reliable source for the above claim? How many people, who aren't in "real need" (whatever that means), are getting benefits and how much does this cost? How much will the mansion tax raise?

Why does it matter whose fault it is? Some people are ****less, some are just unlucky. Both have needs. We can either support people (at a very basic level) or we can get used to all the suffering and social issues that come with casting families out on the streets.

I'm sure the owners of £2m properties are roaring with laughter at the fact that the middle classes see starving the poor as a legitimate way to pay off the deficit.
 
Johnd2000 said:
Another sweeping generalisation, based on nothing more than your own imagination and prejudice. Or do you have a reliable source for the above claim? How many people, who aren't in "real need" (whatever that means), are getting benefits and how much does this cost? How much will the mansion tax raise?

Why does it matter whose fault it is? Some people are ****less, some are just unlucky. Both have needs. We can either support people (at a very basic level) or we can get used to all the suffering and social issues that come with casting families out on the streets.

I'm sure the owners of £2m properties are roaring with laughter at the fact that the middle classes see starving the poor as a legitimate way to pay off the deficit.

Well my nan for one, really does not need all the money she gets. There are many people who never work. It is not imagination or prejudice, just looking at the real world. Yes we should support people at a basic level, but only so far. How is it right that people are better off on benefits than working?

There are many people who live nicely without lifting a finger, laughing at the many hard working people supporting them.
 
cambsno said:
Well my nan for one, really does not need all the money she gets. There are many people who never work. It is not imagination or prejudice, just looking at the real world. Yes we should support people at a basic level, but only so far. How is it right that people are better off on benefits than working?

There are many people who live nicely without lifting a finger, laughing at the many hard working people supporting them.

Right, so your Nan and "many people".

Well, I can't argue with such a well researched argument. As I say, the super rich must be high 5-ing each other.
 
Oh dear God.

I see food stamps has been brought up ; Is my mothers best friend, who receives JSA, not allowed to use your currency? Is she not equal enough? Can she not decide how her money should be spent? Does she not even have the right to choose where her food is purchased from? Let's look at my neighbour, who's currently awaiting an Tribunal Appeal for ESA and suffers from Schizoaffective Personality Disorder and agoraphobia, should he be forced to stop spending his fantastic £60 a week on his art supplies? The only thing keeping him from returning to mental hospitals? Should he be forced into buying in-store because food stamps won't cover his online shopping - his only way of shopping. PS - Will food stamps be taxed? If not, that's a lot of money being lost.

I get sick to death of people from comfortable lives, nice houses and expensive tastes in gear telling me what "Them council house people do" or even worse, telling me what "Those benefits them people get" is. I sit here in a council house with 2 people who have spent a combined 60 years working for the DWP, my neighbours are the people you talk about with authority and my friends are the people you assume are buying plasma TVs every 5 minutes, only buying booze and leaving children to die in pools of heroin.

The idea that kids can't grow from the worst situations of poverty, can't acheive 'better' things and will instantly fall into the trappings of their parents. I lived in the Gorbals during the early 90's, a terrible time for a terrible area. I've seen so many kids I grew up with from that area, kids with stories of physical abuse, sexual abuse, drug addicted parents and suicide going on to own their own homes, have respectable jobs and, most importantly, are happy. But of course, you guys on here clearly know with the "She'll just end up like the mum" comments. And these kids lack the inspiration and the hope? Look at yourselves when discussing this.

Now let's talk about the DWP in general ; these people claiming JSA are living the wild life with your money? Of course, that's why 8 of my mum's clients have killed themselves since January. That's why my mum is handing out Samaritans cards to people and even better, will be getting training in counselling? That's why the old man who frequently talks to the Pope, 30 years of mental health issues and many stays in hospitals has been kicked off ESA onto JSA, because he wants to join this money splashing party going on. That's why only last Friday my mum and her workmates had to give a 50 year old woman a whip round to give her shelter for the weekend. Christmas time in Glasgow thousands were left without their JSA, DLA and ESA, so many went without heating, food and Christmas presents over that peroid, because they've got so much money that it's ok! These people clearly have thousands of pounds stacked away in their expensive council houses. Now my step dad, he deals with appeals ; Do you know how much of your tax payers money goes towards ATOS, Triage and 4GS? Do you also know much a Tribunal Appeal costs? Well, don't worry because 60% of decisions made by these money-making third party companies is incorrect, each one costing you over £5k. But of course, the disabled people receiving the benefits are still the evil ones ripping you off. ESA has a fraud rate of 0.5% (DWP own figures), so we're aggressively attacking these people with untrained staff, who have to work to figures on bringing people off benefits, these people are like modern a day Jesus, performing miracles at every corner. People who have years of surgeons, doctors, hospital stays, medical evidence and physical proof that they're ill are brought out of their sickness because they can, and I quote, "Lift an arm above their head" and even more proof they can work, they can "Look after a small pet". Thank God for ATOS, attacking that massive 0.5% for your protections and bringing this country out of recession. The thing you should be scared of is management at the DWP, the constant ambiguous rules being released every week by the management, the sacking of frontline staff, new temps not knowing how to deal with people, the physical assaults in Job Centres at a time when security guards are being sacked, the money being spent on retired Dr's sitting through Tribunal appeals, ATOS, the Work Program, the WRAG group. These are the true money wasters.

If anybody would like I can happily let them come along and sit with my mum for a day in the frontline and see what the realities are, or you can see my step-fathers work with these third party groups who constantly mess up, yet are rewarded with large contracts or you could bring your camera along with me and walk through the area I live. I'm not being sarcastic, if that's what it takes to help some people see the truth, I want that. When we have a stituation were the mentally ill, the physical ill and the kids on JSA are fighting against an unrelenting Daily Mail looking for the loudest, most obnoxious families to broadcast and claim these families as the 'face of benefits' - the vast majority who are sick and JSA claiments cannot be heard and more frightingly will never be heard. And i'm out.
 
Oh dear God.

I see food stamps has been brought up ; Is my mothers best friend, who receives JSA, not allowed to use your currency? Is she not equal enough? Can she not decide how her money should be spent? Does she not even have the right to choose where her food is purchased from? Let's look at my neighbour, who's currently awaiting an Tribunal Appeal for ESA and suffers from Schizoaffective Personality Disorder and agoraphobia, should he be forced to stop spending his fantastic £60 a week on his art supplies? The only thing keeping him from returning to mental hospitals? Should he be forced into buying in-store because food stamps won't cover his online shopping - his only way of shopping. PS - Will food stamps be taxed? If not, that's a lot of money being lost.

I get sick to death of people from comfortable lives, nice houses and expensive tastes in gear telling me what "Them council house people do" or even worse, telling me what "Those benefits them people get" is. I sit here in a council house with 2 people who have spent a combined 60 years working for the DWP, my neighbours are the people you talk about with authority and my friends are the people you assume are buying plasma TVs every 5 minutes, only buying booze and leaving children to die in pools of heroin.

The idea that kids can't grow from the worst situations of poverty, can't acheive 'better' things and will instantly fall into the trappings of their parents. I lived in the Gorbals during the early 90's, a terrible time for a terrible area. I've seen so many kids I grew up with from that area, kids with stories of physical abuse, sexual abuse, drug addicted parents and suicide going on to own their own homes, have respectable jobs and, most importantly, are happy. But of course, you guys on here clearly know with the "She'll just end up like the mum" comments. And these kids lack the inspiration and the hope? Look at yourselves when discussing this.

Now let's talk about the DWP in general ; these people claiming JSA are living the wild life with your money? Of course, that's why 8 of my mum's clients have killed themselves since January. That's why my mum is handing out Samaritans cards to people and even better, will be getting training in counselling? That's why the old man who frequently talks to the Pope, 30 years of mental health issues and many stays in hospitals has been kicked off ESA onto JSA, because he wants to join this money splashing party going on. That's why only last Friday my mum and her workmates had to give a 50 year old woman a whip round to give her shelter for the weekend. Christmas time in Glasgow thousands were left without their JSA, DLA and ESA, so many went without heating, food and Christmas presents over that peroid, because they've got so much money that it's ok! These people clearly have thousands of pounds stacked away in their expensive council houses. Now my step dad, he deals with appeals ; Do you know how much of your tax payers money goes towards ATOS, Triage and 4GS? Do you also know much a Tribunal Appeal costs? Well, don't worry because 60% of decisions made by these money-making third party companies is incorrect, each one costing you over £5k. But of course, the disabled people receiving the benefits are still the evil ones ripping you off. ESA has a fraud rate of 0.5% (DWP own figures), so we're aggressively attacking these people with untrained staff, who have to work to figures on bringing people off benefits, these people are like modern a day Jesus, performing miracles at every corner. People who have years of surgeons, doctors, hospital stays, medical evidence and physical proof that they're ill are brought out of their sickness because they can, and I quote, "Lift an arm above their head" and even more proof they can work, they can "Look after a small pet". Thank God for ATOS, attacking that massive 0.5% for your protections and bringing this country out of recession. The thing you should be scared of is management at the DWP, the constant ambiguous rules being released every week by the management, the sacking of frontline staff, new temps not knowing how to deal with people, the physical assaults in Job Centres at a time when security guards are being sacked, the money being spent on retired Dr's sitting through Tribunal appeals, ATOS, the Work Program, the WRAG group. These are the true money wasters.

If anybody would like I can happily let them come along and sit with my mum for a day in the frontline and see what the realities are, or you can see my step-fathers work with these third party groups who constantly mess up, yet are rewarded with large contracts or you could bring your camera along with me and walk through the area I live. I'm not being sarcastic, if that's what it takes to help some people see the truth, I want that. When we have a stituation were the mentally ill, the physical ill and the kids on JSA are fighting against an unrelenting Daily Mail looking for the loudest, most obnoxious families to broadcast and claim these families as the 'face of benefits' - the vast majority who are sick and JSA claiments cannot be heard and more frightingly will never be heard. And i'm out.

Thank you for posting this and bringing perspective back to the thread.

The gutter press has misrepresented life on benefits for so long that some people think everyone on benefits is living the high life with their feet up when in reality the sort of wealth division we have allowed to perpetuate in our society couldn't be further from the picture papers like the Daily Mail love to paint.

Threads like this always make me sad. People wonder what's wrong with society? Reading this thread and seeing the lack of compassion on display because of a few abuses of the system and suddenly it becomes clear. Funny thing is the same people who moan about 'what the country has become' are the very same people contributing to the problems that exist.
 
Micehorns said:
Oh dear God.

I see food stamps has been brought up ; Is my mothers best friend, who receives JSA, not allowed to use your currency? Is she not equal enough? Can she not decide how her money should be spent? Does she not even have the right to choose where her food is purchased from? Let's look at my neighbour, who's currently awaiting an Tribunal Appeal for ESA and suffers from Schizoaffective Personality Disorder and agoraphobia, should he be forced to stop spending his fantastic £60 a week on his art supplies? The only thing keeping him from returning to mental hospitals? Should he be forced into buying in-store because food stamps won't cover his online shopping - his only way of shopping. PS - Will food stamps be taxed? If not, that's a lot of money being lost.

I get sick to death of people from comfortable lives, nice houses and expensive tastes in gear telling me what "Them council house people do" or even worse, telling me what "Those benefits them people get" is. I sit here in a council house with 2 people who have spent a combined 60 years working for the DWP, my neighbours are the people you talk about with authority and my friends are the people you assume are buying plasma TVs every 5 minutes, only buying booze and leaving children to die in pools of heroin.

The idea that kids can't grow from the worst situations of poverty, can't acheive 'better' things and will instantly fall into the trappings of their parents. I lived in the Gorbals during the early 90's, a terrible time for a terrible area. I've seen so many kids I grew up with from that area, kids with stories of physical abuse, sexual abuse, drug addicted parents and suicide going on to own their own homes, have respectable jobs and, most importantly, are happy. But of course, you guys on here clearly know with the "She'll just end up like the mum" comments. And these kids lack the inspiration and the hope? Look at yourselves when discussing this.

Now let's talk about the DWP in general ; these people claiming JSA are living the wild life with your money? Of course, that's why 8 of my mum's clients have killed themselves since January. That's why my mum is handing out Samaritans cards to people and even better, will be getting training in counselling? That's why the old man who frequently talks to the Pope, 30 years of mental health issues and many stays in hospitals has been kicked off ESA onto JSA, because he wants to join this money splashing party going on. That's why only last Friday my mum and her workmates had to give a 50 year old woman a whip round to give her shelter for the weekend. Christmas time in Glasgow thousands were left without their JSA, DLA and ESA, so many went without heating, food and Christmas presents over that peroid, because they've got so much money that it's ok! These people clearly have thousands of pounds stacked away in their expensive council houses. Now my step dad, he deals with appeals ; Do you know how much of your tax payers money goes towards ATOS, Triage and 4GS? Do you also know much a Tribunal Appeal costs? Well, don't worry because 60% of decisions made by these money-making third party companies is incorrect, each one costing you over £5k. But of course, the disabled people receiving the benefits are still the evil ones ripping you off. ESA has a fraud rate of 0.5% (DWP own figures), so we're aggressively attacking these people with untrained staff, who have to work to figures on bringing people off benefits, these people are like modern a day Jesus, performing miracles at every corner. People who have years of surgeons, doctors, hospital stays, medical evidence and physical proof that they're ill are brought out of their sickness because they can, and I quote, "Lift an arm above their head" and even more proof they can work, they can "Look after a small pet". Thank God for ATOS, attacking that massive 0.5% for your protections and bringing this country out of recession. The thing you should be scared of is management at the DWP, the constant ambiguous rules being released every week by the management, the sacking of frontline staff, new temps not knowing how to deal with people, the physical assaults in Job Centres at a time when security guards are being sacked, the money being spent on retired Dr's sitting through Tribunal appeals, ATOS, the Work Program, the WRAG group. These are the true money wasters.

If anybody would like I can happily let them come along and sit with my mum for a day in the frontline and see what the realities are, or you can see my step-fathers work with these third party groups who constantly mess up, yet are rewarded with large contracts or you could bring your camera along with me and walk through the area I live. I'm not being sarcastic, if that's what it takes to help some people see the truth, I want that. When we have a stituation were the mentally ill, the physical ill and the kids on JSA are fighting against an unrelenting Daily Mail looking for the loudest, most obnoxious families to broadcast and claim these families as the 'face of benefits' - the vast majority who are sick and JSA claiments cannot be heard and more frightingly will never be heard. And i'm out.

Excellent post!
 
ding76uk said:
Excellent post!

But a one sided argument. I have never suggested that all claimants are cheats. If anything there are many families or people in desperate need of more help and we should be giving out more to them. Whether its people screwing the tax system, the CSA, or benefits, or MPs expenses I get annoyed about taking money from those who need it to those that are just lazy.

There are people claiming benefits they shouldn't. Penalties for fraud should be far higher. Unless you have a disability, is there any reason why someone who has never worked should get benefits without question? Should people really be better off on benefits than working?

We cannot afford to carry on in this way. Yes, I form opinions from papers, most of us do. Maybe they are in a massive minority but I remember the couple on wife swap years ago complaining about her child's asthma while smoking In the kitchen! They had 10 kids or so and
 
But a one sided argument. I have never suggested that all claimants are cheats. If anything there are many families or people in desperate need of more help and we should be giving out more to them. Whether its people screwing the tax system, the CSA, or benefits, or MPs expenses I get annoyed about taking money from those who need it to those that are just lazy.

Agreed here.

Nobody is saying that because we and can point to people who are cheating the system and getting benefits they don't deserve that everyone on benefits are crooks.

One the other hand just because you can point to some people on benefits that truly need our help, that everyone on benefits needs to receive our help .


And yes to a post a while back, I too believe that everyone on this forum is in the top 10% of the global rich.
 
Those nukes provide a lot of jobs!
(Skilled and relatively high paid)
Indeed, a local engineering firm has upped its workforce by 100% during these troubled times, they are heavily into the waste N fuel industry.
 
Oh dear God.

<Snip>

Agreed, there are those who need help and there are those who take the pee, we all know some of both.The thing people get wrong is not differentiating between the two. Some of the press seem to revel in tarring all with the same brush and whipping up controversy,which, alas, a lot of people seem to believe is the truth.
 
We have heard both extremes of the argument but we all agree that it can't carry on like its is though don't we?

I've looked up some figures on entitledto. A typical case of a single mother with 2 children with £450 rent and £60 a month council tax will receive £17,500 tax free a year. That would be a salary of £20-£22k for someone paying income tax and NI. The average wage for non degree holders in the uk is £17,800 and £29k for degree holders who will come out of uni with approx £50k student debts, where is the incentive to work there?
 
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No it can`t mate. But what we must not do is take any benefits away from people who are in need of them.

Perhaps more people employed to weed out the cheats would pay dividends?

One thing I would like to see is that anybody,moving here from abroad, who has not paid into the system for at least five years, should not be entitled to claim anything.
 
rjbell said:
We have heard both extremes of the argument but we all agree that it can't carry on like its is though don't we?

I've looked up some figures on entitledto. A typical case of a single mother with 2 children with £450 rent and £60 a month council tax will receive £17,500 tax free a year. That would be a salary of £20-£22k for someone paying income tax and NI. The average wage for non degree holders in the uk is £17,800 and £29k for degree holders who will come out of uni with approx £50k student debts, where is the incentive to work there?

To be fair to the single mum, childcare costs are horrendous. This needs addressing as childminders will set u back around £35 a day per child. But totally agree, where is the incentive to work.
 
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