Malaysian Airlines MH17 - plane crash, near Donetsk, Ukraine.

andy700 said:
Very good Dave, I understood a lot from your meagre comments.
If you read the "Wiki" link which you have posted, then you will see that elections did not take place in Eastern Ukraine - Donbass, Donetsk and Crimea, which Wiki describes as being "annexed".
The fact remains, that the majority of people in Eastern Ukraine regard themsleves as being "Russian", and the Western media can do nothing to change their views.
I am not a Putin supporter, but I am also not a supporter of Obama, or Cameron for that matter.
This whole situation (not the tragic downing of a civilian airliner - which is most probably a tragic mistake) has been manufactured by the US and the EU, to try to prise the whole of Ukraine away from Russian influence.
It also has much to do with energy supplies, particularly with the intention of the US to supply Ukraine (and then Europe), with very costly liquid gas, instead of the gas supplies from Russia.
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Parts of Eastern Ukraine boycotted the 2014 election in protest as they didn't like the previous pro Russian leader being ousted during the protests. Rebel leaders had already taken control of these regions and were refusing to allow the election process to be set up in their area. These were backed by Russia and were heavily armed and supported. You've only got to look at what happened whenukranian troops tried to take control back of the area following the election.

Rather like in this country, if you don't vote, you can't complain about the result.

I suggest you remove the blinkers and read several of the news reports of the time.
 
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Dave1 said:
Then they have the choice to move to Russia, they don't have the right to begin an armed insurrection against the legitimate government, remember that Eastern Ukraine is part of the country of Ukraine, those borders are set and recognised by the international community (including Russia) and they cannot use violence to try and change that.
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Should the Catholic communities of Belfast and Derry have moved to Dublin or Cork?
 
Yves Geza said:
Should the Catholic communities of Belfast and Derry have moved to Dublin or Cork?
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If the option was engage in open warfare or move, then yes, they should rather move than mobilise in tanks, using automatic weapons on their countrymen and begin a war against their legitimate government.
 
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norters said:
Some stellar middle aged bickering going on in here!

My sympathies with the families of the victims.

Carry on you classy people.
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It's a discussion forum, there's an adult discussion going on without any bickering really.
Did you want to contribute to the discussion?
 
Dave1 said:
If the option was engage in open warfare or move, then yes, they should rather move than mobilise in tanks, using automatic weapons on their countrymen and begin a war against their legitimate government.
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I said before - they fancied a bit of Arab spring. Backed by Russia who never wanted Ukraine to become a separate country, they took their chances the same as other countries have. Right or wrong, it's got several precedents over the last couple of years.
 
Byker28i said:
It's a discussion forum, there's an adult discussion going on without any bickering really.
Did you want to contribute to the discussion?
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Not really. I have nothing to contribute. I feel the best people to contribute to a discussion are the experts and diplomats from the countries involved. I have nothing more to add but my repeated sympathies for the families of the victims.
 
Byker28i said:
I said before - they fancied a bit of Arab spring. Backed by Russia who never wanted Ukraine to become a separate country, they took their chances the same as other countries have. Right or wrong, it's got several precedents over the last couple of years.
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That's true, my opinion is that Russia saw an opportunity to destabilise a neighbour who was starting to look towards the west more than they approved of or wanted.

They couldn't have envisaged some drunken rebel being in control of an AA battery and deciding to shoot down a plane that ended up being a passenger airline, but that doesn't absolve them of responsibility.
 
norters said:
Not really. I have nothing to contribute. I feel the best people to contribute to a discussion are the experts and diplomats from the countries involved. I have nothing more to add but my repeated sympathies for the families of the victims.
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Your opinion and you're very welcome to express it. We have that in a democracy, in 2002, the United Nations listed the following as essential elements of democracy:
  • Respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms
  • Freedom of association
  • Freedom of expression and opinion
  • Access to power and its exercise in accordance with the rule of law
  • The holding of periodic free and fair elections by universal suffrage and by secret ballot as the expression of the will of the people
  • A pluralistic system of political parties and organizations
  • The separation of powers
  • The independence of the judiciary
  • Transparency and accountability in public administration
  • Free, independent and pluralistic media

Note Freedom of expression and opinion. Without media and 'the people' expressing their opinion, our elected politicians (the experts or diplomats you possible speak of) wouldn't necessarily express the peoples opinions. Without the discussion then people wouldn't be informed, couldn't consider others opinions and possible have a fuller rounded knowledge of world events, which ultimately affect us all.
 
Dave1 said:
That's true, my opinion is that Russia saw an opportunity to destabilise a neighbour who was starting to look towards the west more than they approved of or wanted.

They couldn't have envisaged some drunken rebel being in control of an AA battery and deciding to shoot down a plane that ended up being a passenger airline, but that doesn't absolve them of responsibility.
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Not sure they were drunken. They'd shot down other targets in the days before and there are reports of Ukrainian aircraft in the vicinity. Quite easy for a untrained, or poorly trained operator to lock radar onto the wrong target and steer it that way.
 
Bernie174 said:
Ah Billn, the great avoid answering. Ramblings? No. Your lack of answer? Lack of knowledge and ability to back up your points, as I thought.
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Bernie, I thought that I had answered all you points, but maybe I did not make myself clear so for completeness I will try a more direct approach:


You say: “On Aviation security, ah, my specialist subject”

I have no reason to believe or disbelieve you as I have seen no evidence in your posting to indicate your specialist knowledge.

You say: – about Putin – “He's a Politician, of course he can't be trusted, nor can Cameron, Obarmy, or any other! They got where they got by lying through their teeth.”

I disagree with your statement regarding Cameron and the US President and grouping them with Putin is just wrong.

You also indicate, that Obama’s decisions are less than sound, (Obarmy?) – again I disagree.

You say: “Europe is too scared of it's own shadow to do anything meaningful, and in any case, Russia has something we need, gas.”

If by “meaningful” do you mean Military action?, if so I disagree completely: Military action against Russia is not an option, adding more arms to the conflict cannot serve any purpose. The only solutions that we have are sanctions, negotiations and diplomacy.


I said: “defence spending worldwide is increasing” and quoted a detailed summary by an independent organisation. You quoted an article with a “one liner”

– When looking at such information it is very important to consider the detail and when making comparisons, period on period, it is sensible and normal to adjust any figures for unusual and non recurring items. When the US and the UK pull out of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan there will naturally be a decrease in military spending by those countries. It is what is happening in other regions, particularly Saudi, China, other middle eastern states and the Far East and sadly Russia, that is more relevant.
Defence spending is increasing

I said: "no commercial flight can be considered save from a bomb or rocket attack and if they want to use such on near or even far distance neighbours it is entirely feasible."

If sophisticated weapons are allowed to get into the hands of “terrorist groups” (you may regard them a freedom fighters from another of your comments), such actions could take place. Certainly if ISIS, Hezbollah, Boko Haram and other Islamic extremist groups, particularly those connected with the Syrian conflict gain such weapons and find their “backs against the wall” no surrounding country, Iran included, will be safe. I would be very surprised if such senarios are not being factored into the intel being put together by various groups.
No commercial flight can be considered safe from a bomb or rocket attack, this is just a fact.

Finally, I think that you mentioned that you were a policeman for some years working on the security details at a “West London” airport – presumably this was Heathrow but you feel that you cannot mentioned it by name for some reason.

I know that the Police Federation have their differences with the Conservative Government, but I do hope that the current police force at Heathrow do not share your views on Obama and Cameron and “anything meaningful”

The way forward can only be achieved by peaceful means with the influence of other countries

Obviously the above are my views
 
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Byker28i said:
Not sure they were drunken. They'd shot down other targets in the days before and there are reports of Ukrainian aircraft in the vicinity. Quite easy for a untrained, or poorly trained operator to lock radar onto the wrong target and steer it that way.
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True, but there have been a number of reports of inebriated rebels around the crash site, I was considering it as a mitigation into why the controller of that system decided to murder 298 innocent people in an airliner who were completely uninvolved in their dirty war.
 
Apparent shrapnel damage caused by the missile now being published.

@TomCoghlan: Apparent missile shrapnel damage to forward cargo bay section of #MH17 corroborated by aviation experts. http://t.co/QinFX1gYJA

BtDFa6tCEAADYzh.jpg





@TomCoghlan: Apparent missile shrapnel damage to forward cargo bay section of #MH17 - the http://t.co/3KwYqhBYS8 http://t.co/H6mgGYJ5UO

BtDH0h0CEAA86Pt.jpg


More photos on his feed - @TomCoghlan

Pilots didn't stand a chance looking at the shrapnel damage to the cockpit.


@justin_br0nk #MH17 fuselage from port side cockpit section showing heavy shrapnel damage consistent with SA-11 hit, credit @FTpic.BANNED/F4TWSXWvTZ

BtEXtynCMAE0_bo.jpg
 
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Dave1 said:
I would doubt any Western airlines will be flying anywhere near their area of control (pretty sure Syria/Iraq area has been avoided for quite some time now).
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Not so. I don't know about the current situation, but I flew over Iraq in March.
 
shrapnel - I think that is what that missile is designed to do - not hit a plane but explode near it, causing damage over a wide area
 
chadders said:
Not so. I don't know about the current situation, but I flew over Iraq in March.
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If you look at a live flight tracker such as FlightRadar24, you can see that there are huge numbers of civilian flights from Western Europe and elsewhere in the skies over Iraq right now. Mostly on their way to the UAE.
Syria, not so much.

Probably because there is no significant air war in the former, whereas Syria have been using an air force against rebels and the rebels have been responding by firing at planes. And, to be fair, there was hardly a significant air war (although there had been incidents) in Ukraine prior to the attack on MH17.
 
Looks very much like it. Generally the warheads on these are designed to explode close to the aircraft so that it's hit with a cloud of shrapnel, usually around 50p sized, but some warheads have steel rods. This looks like it detonated pilot side and below.
 
Billn

It might have helped your case if you'd read what I said, not guessed.

Starting with EU action against Russia, I said,

We aren't going to go to war over Ukraine.
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You'll find that on post 92. It quite clearly gives you no reason to make the presumptions you have.

Although it does indicate your inability to comprehend. That would explain the rest of your ramble.

Interesting that the EU aren't going to take any major steps, they'll even let the french supply them with 2 new warships?????

All Politicians are on the same bucket. None of them will tell the truth, including Cameron and Obarmy. Possibly why the Yanks have just voted him one of their worst Presidents. Well, that had to wake up at some point.

As for what Police Officers at Heathrow (West London airport being a humorous comment, clearly wasted on you, so can't comprehend, no sense of humour..mmm..OK!), if they are representative of most, then I doubt many will ever vote conservative again. See Winsor and May for reasons why. But thats neither here, nor there, just as you are entitled to an opinion, no matter how suspect your reasoning, so are they and I.

As for the rest of your trip round the planets, none of it has any foundation, there's probably less reasons to be worried now than ever before. A good example being the FAA in the states stopping US flights to Isreal. In years gone by that would never have happened. Oh, didn't I say this earlier?

"The only game that's changed is routings, and perhaps a bit more joined up thinking form now on. "

What a spooky coincidence???????

I'm happy to respond to your reasoned arguments, just no more of DM based rubbish.

In that spirit, as you have made a sensible point,

"shrapnel - I think that is what that missile is designed to do - not hit a plane but explode near it, causing damage over a wide area"

Correct. This system is designed to stop military aircraft. By 'peppering' it, you are almost guaranteed to hit something vital, and thats an end game for a military aircraft. It's not as terminal with a civil aircraft, the vital systems are spread out a lot more, so less susceptible to damage.

In this case, video of the aircraft on the way down shows an engine on fire, badly. Although an engine fire shouldn't be enough to bring down a 777, damage to the control surfaces would have finished it's chances. Although both an Israeli and DHL airlines have survived hits like that.
 
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ghoti said:
If you look at a live flight tracker such as FlightRadar24, you can see that there are huge numbers of civilian flights from Western Europe and elsewhere in the skies over Iraq right now. Mostly on their way to the UAE.
Syria, not so much.

Probably because there is no significant air war in the former, whereas Syria have been using an air force against rebels and the rebels have been responding by firing at planes. And, to be fair, there was hardly a significant air war (although there had been incidents) in Ukraine prior to the attack on MH17.
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Exactly. As I said previously, wait until ISIS get there hands on some surface to air missiles.
 
Bernie174 said:
Billn

It might have helped your case if you'd read what I said, not guessed.

Starting with EU action against Russia, I said,



You'll find that on post 92. It quite clearly gives you no reason to make the presumptions you have.

Although it does indicate your inability to comprehend. That would explain the rest of your ramble.

Interesting that the EU aren't going to take any major steps, they'll even let the french supply them with 2 new warships?????

All Politicians are on the same bucket. None of them will tell the truth, including Cameron and Obarmy. Possibly why the Yanks have just voted him one of their worst Presidents. Well, that had to wake up at some point.

As for what Police Officers at Heathrow (West London airport being a humorous comment, clearly wasted on you, so can't comprehend, no sense of humour..mmm..OK!), if they are representative of most, then I doubt many will ever vote conservative again. See Winsor and May for reasons why. But thats neither here, nor there, just as you are entitled to an opinion, no matter how suspect your reasoning, so are they and I.

As for the rest of your trip round the planets, none of it has any foundation, there's probably less reasons to be worried now than ever before. A good example being the FAA in the states stopping US flights to Isreal. In years gone by that would never have happened. Oh, didn't I say this earlier?

"The only game that's changed is routings, and perhaps a bit more joined up thinking form now on. "

What a spooky coincidence???????

I'm happy to respond to your reasoned arguments, just no more of DM based rubbish.

In that spirit, as you have made a sensible point,

"shrapnel - I think that is what that missile is designed to do - not hit a plane but explode near it, causing damage over a wide area"

Correct. This system is designed to stop military aircraft. By 'peppering' it, you are almost guaranteed to hit something vital, and thats an end game for a military aircraft. It's not as terminal with a civil aircraft, the vital systems are spread out a lot more, so less susceptible to damage.

In this case, video of the aircraft on the way down shows an engine on fire, badly. Although an engine fire shouldn't be enough to bring down a 777, damage to the control surfaces would have finished it's chances. Although both an Israeli and DHL airlines have survived hits like that.
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I guess that there is no common ground between us on this Bernie, I try to answer you points but then you drift away from them.
 
Bernie174 said:
All Politicians are on the same bucket. None of them will tell the truth, including Cameron and Obarmy. Possibly why the Yanks have just voted him one of their worst Presidents. Well, that had to wake up at some point.
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Strange how people have to make up names for Obama, I feel it weakens the argument, rather like playground name calling.

It wasn't quite as you stated. The Quinnipiac University poll surveyed 1,446 registered voters nationwide from June 24-30. The margin of error was +/-2.6. This is from a population of 314 million. Do we think that is representative, do you know the social economic group they questioned?

Just for balance, With several references included onthe wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama

A 2010 Siena poll of 238 Presidential scholars found that President Obama was ranked 15th out of 43, with high ratings for imagination, communication ability and intelligence and a low rating for background (family, education and experience).[367][368] In 2011, through the agency of its United States Presidency Centre (USPC), the Institute for the Study of the Americas (located in the University of London’s School of Advanced Study) released the first ever U.K. academic survey to rate U.S. presidents. They also gave an interim assessment of Barack Obama, but his unfinished presidency was not included in the survey though he attained eighth place overall.[369] In 2012, Newsweek magazine asked a panel of historians to rank the ten best presidents since 1900. The results showed that historians had ranked Obama as the 10th best president since that year, behind Franklin D. Roosevelt, Theodore Roosevelt, Lyndon Johnson, Woodrow Wilson, Harry Truman, John F. Kennedy, Dwight Eisenhower, Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan.[370] A 2013 History News Network poll of 203 American historians, when asked to rate Barack Obama's presidency on an A-F scale, gave him a B- grade. Obama, whom historians graded using 15 separate measures plus an overall grade, was rated most highly in the categories of communication ability, integrity, and crisis management, and most poorly for his relationship with Congress and transparency and accountability.[371]


Personally I like the idea he's trying to drag the US into the 21st century as they generally seem to be 50-60 years behind Europe in their development and ideals. After the last election he doesn't have the full power of pushing things through, with the two main parties split between the houses of power and yet has still attempted and in some cases succeeded in bringing in several domestic policies that will have significant impact. I could list them but I doubt you'd be bothered. It's worth a look though.
 
I'd agree the US needs dragging into the 21st Century, and it's a shame that a country with such high ideals is so backward is so many ways still.
As for Obarma, as with all US presidents for many years he's just a front man for those who put the money up .which ensures their own interests are catered for first. As for the Americans opinions of him, all the Yanks I know despise him, but to be fair, I think they did from the start.
Has he tried to introduce social reform? Yes, I'll give him that, but in a country where cash is king, he doesn't have much of a hope. On foreign policy though, which is what we should be interested in, he's a waste of space and ineffectual.
The current cock up with blame coming from the white house initially aimed at Putin, and now intelligence briefers are saying there's no evidence that the Russians where involved being a good example. It seems that he jumped on a bandwagon, that wasn't there to start with.
Unfortunately, there were other explanations for this incident that have been ignored. Now those might be wrong too, but it was far too early to jump to a conclusion and blame the Russians for everything. I don't doubt they know more than they are saying, after all it's in their sphere of interest, but that doesn't mean they had any involvement.


But anyway, would I trust Obarma enough to buy a second hand car from? No chance!
 
wow those photos are awfull.

a lot of the bodies are coming home to NL today

RIP
 
Bernie - I don't see the whitehouse allegations as wrong, rather a softening of the approach to the russians. There's some dealing going on in the background that the previous rhetoric wasn't helpful to.
 
Bernie174 said:
No Bill, you talked rubbish.
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Bernie

This is getting tedious but I will respond one last time to the points that you have made. I will do this as simply as I can.

You tell us that your specialist subject is “Aviation security” – without giving any evidence.

You refuse to consider anything other than simple research information regarding defence spending.

You refute that what has happened is a “game changer” in the worlds attitude and sanctions towards Russia, although this is being stated daily by international leaders. You insist that the only game changer is aircraft “routing”

You refuse to accept that if sophisticated weapons are allowed to get into the hands of “terrorist groups" there will be a danger to civilian airlines and territories and that this danger is increasing.

You say that “Europe is too scared of it's own shadow to do anything meaningful”, without suggesting what you regard as meaningful.

But more revealingly you openly accuse Cameron and Obama, as getting “where they got by lying through their teeth.”, grouping them in the same sentence as Putin

You purport to have been a Police Office who patrolled Heathrow. If you were truly this and are not some “internet troll” who just says things for effect, all I can say is thank God that you are not now in a position of authority within the UK Police force.

I am also very surprised that as a (presumably retired), Police Officer you feel the need to state such feelings on a public forum.

My “rubbish” as you describe it, comes from reported facts ……… your opinions seem to come from arrogance and a failure to be able to understand the current situation.


May I suggest that you “stop digging” as you are in a big enough hole.
 
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At last, the flight recorders have arrived at AAIB Farnborough (the best place they could possibly be) - link
 
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Bernie - I don't see the whitehouse allegations as wrong, rather a softening of the approach to the russians. There's some dealing going on in the background that the previous rhetoric wasn't helpful to.
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I'm not so sure its a case of softening for the sake of it, more a case of in reality, while some might think the original line, now it comes down to cold hard facts, there's nothing there, it's dawning on some that the initial reaction of blame Putin was an overreaction, given there's really not much to lay at his door. Certainly not in connection with the shooting down.
A bit like the press have when 'Shock horror' bodies being moved, messing about with evidence etc! In reality it was the only practical thing to do, and not interfering with evidence at all. It's interesting to note that that was yesterday's press reaction, today's is entirely different!
There's a huge amount of conclusion jumping going on here, and some of it isn't justified at the moment.
 
ST4 said:
They are though, it was a coup...not a proper government. The russians are defending their native people, whats wrong with that
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?

There has been an internationally recognised election since the Maidan revolt...
 
ST4 said:
Maybe, but there is still nothing wrong with the Russians acting in the interest of their own people within Ukraine.
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Well maybe, but I do not think there is that much wrong with the Eastern Ukainians acting in their own interests, regardless of the patronising sneering of the Western media!
 
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Yves Geza said:
Well maybe, but I do not think there is that much wrong with the Eastern Ukainians acting in their own interests, regardless of the patronising sneering of the Western media!
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You don't see Putin and the Ukrainians interfering re the scottish independence vote, why should we interfere in their affairs. The French etc are quite right to sell them ships etc if they are willing to buy.
 
ST4 said:
Maybe, but there is still nothing wrong with the Russians acting in the interest of their own people within Ukraine.
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So you would be happy with Poland or Pakistan destabilising the UK in the name of looking after "their own people", or sending military supplies to them to begin an armed insurrection?

If there are Russians living in Ukraine who aren't happy living in Ukraine, they should consider moving back to Russia.
 
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Dave1 said:
So you would be happy with Poland or Pakistan destabilising the UK in the name of looking after "their own people", or sending military supplies to them to begin an armed insurrection?

If they aren't happy living in Ukraine, they should consider moving back to Russia.
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Dave, i thought I'd already argued against that idea, talking about recent Northern irish history!

And BTW, you should be careful because there may well be members of this forum who will suggest that Poland and Pakistan have already destabilised the UK with their own people ...
 
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