Mach loop...The end is neigh

davek said:
Well, we can agree to differ but I think (actually, know) you are incorrect on just about all the counts (politics will always get in the way of good military stuff but I believe Incirlik is still a handy NATO base and I have worked out of Karachi) in your above post. I trust you have no service aviation background?;)
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Yes it is a NATO base, but due to Turkey's stance on the Kurdish situation within it's own borders, does not permit either staging flights to either Iraq or Afghanistan, or for training to be conducted out of Incirlik.
Additionally, RAF flights bound for either location may not traverse Turkish airspace - it's why flights to and from Afghan take so bloody long.

So I'm not quite as out of touch as you might think.
 
not aimed at me i know
but

I trust you have no service aviation background


my dad was RAF and i worked for the RAF after i left the army

i found the pilots great people and the engineers over egotistal, bigheads

you would hear then criticise pilots for reporting malfunctions like gauges the way they flew etc. [never to the face]

took the **** out of me when i reported an aircraft with what looked like a hydraulic leak near the wheels, i should of know it was just because the overfilled the fuel apparently.your supposed to report things to be on the safe side.

they also had a culture of abuse to new engineers and wouldnt help them.

now thats of topic :thinking:
 
Before the lefties came in and re-ordered everything, aircraft engineers were trade group1, (we're talking proper engineering not electrics or electronics) and everyone else knew their place below us in the pecking order. Nu-Communists get elected and suddenly everyone is equal, even the personnel admin staff and stretcher bearers thought they deserved rock-star wages.

Engineers take the **** out of everyone, it's a coping mechanism for being under appreciated so dry your eyes and feel grateful enough that you were thought worthy of having the **** taken. It's when engineers don't take the **** you should feel self-conscious.

As for the sweeping generalisation that pilots are great people and engineers are over egotistical bigheads, I can assure you that you get a mix of everthing in all trades and the only pilots I ever met that I liked flew helicopters (don't confuse liking for respect though, I respected some of the ones I didn't like very much, never liked the ones I didn't respect though funnily enough).

Not to mention that pilot and navigator aren't even real trades (GD - General Dogsbody or something similar);)
 
the engineers i met were stuborn and bigheaded to the point of putting safety at risk.
they derided people who came in to teach them about new aircraft or SOPS and wouldnt listen.
i was bullied into bad [illegal,dangerous] practices untill i stood up to them which eventually led to a very miserable time.


these where mostly old RAF hands who worked for the RAF i 60/70/80
 
straycat said:
the engineers i met were stuborn and bigheaded to the point of putting safety at risk.
they derided people who came in to teach them about new aircraft or SOPS and wouldnt listen.
i was bullied into bad [illegal,dangerous] practices untill i stood up to them which eventually led to a very miserable time.


these where mostly old RAF hands who worked for the RAF i 60/70/80
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Different era to me then, and I have heard some stories about how "different" things were before my time 90/00.
 
I'm amused by the idea of training in a conflict area. That last happened in about 1940 and the losses were pretty high.

Given that many of the pilots are new either to flying generally or to a particular aircraft it isn't advisable to combine your 'how does this thing handle and how can I operate it at low level?' flights (which would defeat most people on its own) with all of that plus figuring out how to avoid hostile fire.

Your suggestion does have a fairly Darwinian touch to it I suppose - chuck all of the rookies into combat and the good ones will survive and be really good. There'll only be about five from every hundred that make it mind you...
 
Oh and on the general point - the sheer volume of training the RAF does now is as nothing compared with what it was 15-20 years ago. I grew up in the Highlands and yes, when one of them goes over at low level and you have had no indication that it's coming you do tend to think the sky is falling in.

But really, for people that get upset by this sort of thing and think that we should all live in a world as described in Keats' poetry I can say only this - dry your eyes and jog on.
 
With the exception of Cheesy's posts (he actually knows what he's talking about here) and a few others there's some right old tosh being spouted in this thread. LL flying is not going to be curtailed by a handful of protestors, the UKLFS ain't going anywhere.

Cheesy: not the same Cheesy who worked on 25 (or 11?) at EGXE between 2003 and 2006 perchance?
 
Jamie H said:
I'm amused by the idea of training in a conflict area. That last happened in about 1940 and the losses were pretty high.

Given that many of the pilots are new either to flying generally or to a particular aircraft it isn't advisable to combine your 'how does this thing handle and how can I operate it at low level?' flights (which would defeat most people on its own) with all of that plus figuring out how to avoid hostile fire..
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I'm being somewhat misquoted here.

I'm talking about training in the countries we currently occupy (Iraq/Afghanistan) but not in the hot areas. There is plenty of ground not inhabited by bad guys (the vast majority of both countries). It is the ideal terrain to train in as it is the same as where the bad guys live.

And I'm not suggesting ab initio pilots train there. But a huge amount of currency and advance tactical training could be carried out there.
 
davek said:
I'm being somewhat misquoted here.

I'm talking about training in the countries we currently occupy (Iraq/Afghanistan) but not in the hot areas. There is plenty of ground not inhabited by bad guys (the vast majority of both countries). It is the ideal terrain to train in as it is the same as where the bad guys live.

And I'm not suggesting ab initio pilots train there. But a huge amount of currency and advance tactical training could be carried out there.
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OK but even taking that into account you have the previously mentioned logistics problem and then there's the not inconsiderable difficulty of how you sell it to the locals.

"Well basically the people in the UK thought these things tearing down the glens and valleys was intolerable (they're worried about it spoiling the serenity) so here we have them in the Hindu Kush, you chaps who went for a stroll and got your limbs blown off by that Russian AP mine don't mind do you?"
 
Jamie H said:
OK but even taking that into account you have the previously mentioned logistics problem and then there's the not inconsiderable difficulty of how you sell it to the locals.

"Well basically the people in the UK thought these things tearing down the glens and valleys was intolerable (they're worried about it spoiling the serenity) so here we have them in the Hindu Kush, you chaps who went for a stroll and got your limbs blown off by that Russian AP mine don't mind do you?"
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"Sell it to the locals" - much like we did the two invasions? You're having a laugh aren't you!!
With hundreds of thousands of dead Iraquis and Afghans caused by the invasion and occupation, I don't think the odd jet is going to be a cause of concern for the local population.
They'd much rather be taken out by collateral damage or friendly fire, I imagine.
 
davek said:
"Sell it to the locals" - much like we did the two invasions? You're having a laugh aren't you!!
With hundreds of thousands of dead Iraquis and Afghans caused by the invasion and occupation, I don't think the odd jet is going to be a cause of concern for the local population.
They'd much rather be taken out by collateral damage or friendly fire, I imagine.
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Invading them for no good reason is bad enough, using the opportunity to develop new training areas is rubbing their noses in it.
 
Jamie H said:
Invading them for no good reason is bad enough, using the opportunity to develop new training areas is rubbing their noses in it.
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Isn't that what rampant imperialism is all about?;)

(As I recall we did the same in Germany for 55 years after WW11.)
 
Good job the pilots can keep themselves on track... unlike this thread! ;)

So... Mach Loop... Nobody's going to ban low-flying anytime soon (I very much doubt) so I guess the MoD will continue making payments to the odd disaffected farmer and our pilots will continue to enjoy the Welsh scenery at 400+ knots! :D

The rest of us will either curse at the noise for the brief moments we hear them or we'll be sat on the side of a hill somewhere with a camera and a long lens both to capture the show and to admire these guys for not only being good enough to land that sort of job in the first place but also for getting paid to do it! :D

Si
 
lets invade holland its flat [no pesky mountains to fly into],they speak english,the foods good and its not to far to travel :lol:
 
A_J said:
Finally, the person threatening the pilots and mentioning ejection - please get a life, do you have any idea what happens to the body during ejection?

A_J
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I Do... first my whole body tenses up followed by a feeling..... oh sorry!! misread the word ejection.:nuts:
But to get to the point, our forces are as good as they are because of their training regime, and i for one am glad about low flying for its those brave pilots who will defend our country should the need arise, defend our troops in areas of operations! they put their lives on the line and people complain about the noise ?
 
Spiritflier said:
Good job the pilots can keep themselves on track... unlike this thread! ;)

So... Mach Loop... Nobody's going to ban low-flying anytime soon (I very much doubt) so I guess the MoD will continue making payments to the odd disaffected farmer and our pilots will continue to enjoy the Welsh scenery at 400+ knots! :D

The rest of us will either curse at the noise for the brief moments we hear them or we'll be sat on the side of a hill somewhere with a camera and a long lens both to capture the show and to admire these guys for not only being good enough to land that sort of job in the first place but also for getting paid to do it! :D

Si
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Sir,

Concise, with a touch of humor. You are a legend!
:thumbs:
Cheesy
 
Cheesy said:
Sir,

Concise, with a touch of humor. You are a legend!
:thumbs:
Cheesy
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I was simply emulating what you pilots do... Get in quick and make a point and then sod off out of the way before all hell breaks loose! :D

Next time I'm in Y Fali, I'll call in at the gate and say hello... Last time I was there I upset two Rockapes and your base MO (although she was a very nice lady - she was quite heavily pregnant as I recall... Hope she's had a successful delivery) :)

Take care,
Si
 
Spiritflier said:
... to admire these guys for not only being good enough to land that sort of job in the first place but also for getting paid to do it! :D

Si
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Yep, I'm still in awe...I lost out at medical stage having had 2 migraines as a 13yr old (i blame the raging hormones of that age), up until that point I'd been the model "space" cadet in possession of a Gliding Scholarship and Flying Scholarship and was all ready to sign up...till that MO told me otherwise.

I've never quite got over it, and being told "oh well, you can be a Fighter Controller or ATCO" and now I'm just too old. :'( :thumbsdown:

Still, I definitely wouldn't be sat on a football/rugby/cricket touchline every weekend working fulltime as a photographer so it's :thumbs: in the end.
 
Cheesy said:
2. The next phrases I'd like you to look at are:

SA-15 Gauntlet
SA-10 Grumble
SA-12 Gladiator
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Hope they are training them to fly less than 10m then... Tor-M1 will chew you up and spit you out otherwise... thats the same system as protects Iranian C&C and nuclear facilities now. Its designed to engage low flying aircraft and/or standoff munitions. It has something like a 90% kill chance within its design envelope (about 20km from launch)

The S300 family (SA-10 or later) or even better the new S400 (SA-20) are the long range air defence and will swat anything but low flying targets (over land) out the sky up to maybe 400km from the launch point...

Russian surface to air missile technology is the best in the world and the biggest sellers :thumbs:

So yes, if you are planning on doing more than bombing AK47 clutching camel humping Muj, you need to fly low.
 
desantnik said:
Hope they are training them to fly less than 10m then... Tor-M1 will chew you up and spit you out otherwise... thats the same system as protects Iranian C&C and nuclear facilities now. Its designed to engage low flying aircraft and/or standoff munitions. It has something like a 90% kill chance within its design envelope (about 20km from launch)

The S300 family (SA-10 or later) or even better the new S400 (SA-20) are the long range air defence and will swat anything but low flying targets (over land) out the sky up to maybe 400km from the launch point...

Russian surface to air missile technology is the best in the world and the biggest sellers :thumbs:

So yes, if you are planning on doing more than bombing AK47 clutching camel humping Muj, you need to fly low.
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Thanks for your input! I'd love to be able to address your post fully, but the forum isn't SUKEO.

All the best,

Cheesy
 
Originally Posted by Spiritflier
Good job the pilots can keep themselves on track... unlike this thread!

So... Mach Loop... Nobody's going to ban low-flying anytime soon (I very much doubt) so I guess the MoD will continue making payments to the odd disaffected farmer and our pilots will continue to enjoy the Welsh scenery at 400+ knots!

The rest of us will either curse at the noise for the brief moments we hear them or we'll be sat on the side of a hill somewhere with a camera and a long lens both to capture the show and to admire these guys for not only being good enough to land that sort of job in the first place but also for getting paid to do it!

Si

Sir,

Concise, with a touch of humor. You are a legend!

Cheesy
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Brilliant!!

Cant believe this debate is going on here aswell, though!!! :bang:
So many forums have ended up debating this!! Please lets stop!!
I joined here to get away from it!!
 
Hawkeye said:
Brilliant!!

Cant believe this debate is going on here aswell, though!!! :bang:
So many forums have ended up debating this!! Please lets stop!!
I joined here to get away from it!!
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You do realise that you don't have to read these threads don't you? :p
 
Hawkeye said:
Brilliant!!

Cant believe this debate is going on here aswell, though!!! :bang:
So many forums have ended up debating this!! Please lets stop!!
I joined here to get away from it!!
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Well it had stopped over 2 weeks ago until you revived this thread. ;)

Are you a Nikon Cheesy?
 
fabs said:
Well it had stopped over 2 weeks ago until you revived this thread. ;)

Are you a Nikon Cheesy?
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I thought it was Cheesy til I looked closer at the Avatar...lol

RAF-Service Phot perhaps?
 
Well it had stopped over 2 weeks ago until you revived this thread. ;)

Are you a Nikon Cheesy?

Arkady said:
I thought it was Cheesy til I looked closer at the Avatar...lol

RAF-Service Phot perhaps?
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Fabs, no I'm a Canon man I'm afraid!

Arkady, right service, but I doubt I'd be able to commit to a career in photography until I retire!

Pat, (you know who you are!) Stop causing trouble my good friend!:)

Cheesy
 
I meant the new faux-Cheesy - I know you're one of those blokes who talks with their hands...
 
They're all barking mad..... String em up thats what I say ;)

They should just charge togs an entrance fee to their laaarrrnd and be done with it :D
 
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