Mach loop...The end is neigh

:cool:
4497329219_c16ed45dfc_o.jpg
 
Cheesy said:
I sit on said seat as part of my day job. Hope you didn't say anything bloody stupid!:bang:

Best regards,

Cheesy
Click to expand...
suffice to say it was, that's why it was removed.
 
jerry12953 said:
To all those people who don't understand what it's like, imagine you're walking along in the hills, often miles from anywhere, minding your own business, and within a split second the universe is just a mass of roaring noise, and you can't even stand up because of it.
Click to expand...

what? A roaring noise that makes it hard to stand? I think everyone in this thread has been to the loop so knows the noise they make.
 
I spent the first 15 years of my life living around RAF bases in Lincolnshire and Yorkshire [Scampton, Waddington and Finningley for those who want to know], I've grown up around fast jets and heavy jets, and can remember on one occasion just after the Gulf War being up the local church tower on a guided tour and having a Tornado fly over at such a height that it was lower than the top of the tower.

Up until 5 years ago, we used to get Tornados, Tucanos, F15s and other miljets coming extremely low level over the house [we're only 10 miles from where the TTTE GR1 crashed near Mattersey in the 90's], and I can't say I noticed them that much.

If anything, the heavy passenger aircraft bimbling into Manchester and sometimes Doncaster make more noise than any low flying military a/c I've seen.
 
david1701 said:
what? A roaring noise that makes it hard to stand? I think everyone in this thread has been to the loop so knows the noise they make.
Click to expand...

If you think about it Dave, there is a huge difference between standing around on a hillside, waiting for something you expect to come along (and from the pictures I've seen generally below the level where you're stood) and something approaching from behind unexpectedly as you're minding you're own business. The noise levels may be similar but the surprise factor makes a huge difference to the overall effect. You (and others) shouldn't be so quick to dismiss other peoples' opinions on the matter.
 
david1701 said:
what? A roaring noise that makes it hard to stand? I think everyone in this thread has been to the loop so knows the noise they make.
Click to expand...

It's all very well when you're on the lookout for them and can see them a mile off, but when one creeps up on you over a ridge (for example) its on you like a shot. And yes, sometimes I've just more or less fallen down on the spot when that happens.
 
Cheesy said:
Two things here mate:

1. Try 'googling' the phrase 'show of force/presence'. A lot of the use of fast air in Afghanistan is deterrence, proving to the Taliban that the guys on the ground will be backed up with significant kinetic attacks if required. This involves flying low and fast (much lower than the peacetime UK rules that you all witness in the UKLFS).

2. The next phrases I'd like you to look at are:

Asymetric warfare
SA-15 Gauntlet
SA-10 Grumble
SA-12 Gladiator

Air power can deliver incredible results, but to obtain the best from air power you must spend a lot of money. The other option is to fight asymetrically, the SAMs listed above are Russian in origin, frighteningly effective and sold to the highest bidder. The best way to defeat them - avoid them(difficult if they are well placed), or fly low and fast giving the SAM operators the minimum reaction time to employ the weapons. These systems would have no problem shooting down a standard GPS bomb lofted from a standoff range. I accept that these systems are not ranged against us in our current areas of operation, but only an idiot would confuse the current conflict with the future of all conflicts.

As an aside, can anyone tell me what was written by jerry12953 regarding aircrew ejecting? A PM will do.

Hope this helps,

Cheesy
Click to expand...

Thanks for the measured and reasoned response Cheesy, you obviously know more about the subject than anyone else on here so I'll take your word for it. I did have to have a little smirk at the line about not confusin current conflicts with future ones though. Isn't that part of the reason we've had such a hard time in the middle east, we we've spent the last 20 years gearing up to buy stuff to fight the Russians and Chinese (Typhoon, Future Carrier, JSF) that we underestimated the need for ground attack and troop transportation.

Hopefully we'll have learn't some lessons, but the cynic in me doubts it;)
 
Byker28i said:
Time for this link again - Soundtrack at the ennd includes a few F's - NSFW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvDDDKnNhuE
Click to expand...

Not sure what that really proves mate, he's flying at about 10ft, much lower than people would experience in an LFA I suspect. If a Harrier was flying that low and close to the presenter he would probably have turned into some some very quickly sauted mince.
 
Kev M said:
If you think about it Dave, there is a huge difference between standing around on a hillside, waiting for something you expect to come along (and from the pictures I've seen generally below the level where you're stood) and something approaching from behind unexpectedly as you're minding you're own business. The noise levels may be similar but the surprise factor makes a huge difference to the overall effect. You (and others) shouldn't be so quick to dismiss other peoples' opinions on the matter.
Click to expand...

Thank you!
 
I think the comments regarding scared livestock are a bit rich to be honest.

Long long ago, I used to ride horses competitively (it was at uni, and i was trying to get in the pants of the team captain - who was rather attractive when in her jodphurs :D )...Swansea Uni has their competition stables very close to Pembrey range near Llanelli.

Suffice to say, when we were all preparing for our dressage competition we were buzzed by a couple of harriers on their way to the range, we all ***** ourselves as we weren't expecting it - never been to the stables before.

However, the horses, who'd lived there all their lives didn't even bat an eyelid.

I would suspect the same is true of the machloop livestock and children.

Incidentally, given the livestock connection from this thread is the title supposed to be ironic?! ;)

Neigh - a noise made by a horse
Nigh - close at hand, about to happen

:D:cool:
 
Kev M said:
Not sure what that really proves mate, he's flying at about 10ft, much lower than people would experience in an LFA I suspect. If a Harrier was flying that low and close to the presenter he would probably have turned into some some very quickly sauted mince.
Click to expand...

Just a response to your comment of comparing a spitfire to a GR4. That was too good an opportunity to post that clip :D

Harriers don't suck in that much really and are actually quite quiet. Most dangerous are transports. The Hercules used to blow over landrovers as they drove past. :D

I was at Pembrey last year and the hawks were using the sea for attack runs, guns blazing. Now that was interesting.
 
rmt1982 said:
I spent the first 15 years of my life living around RAF bases in Lincolnshire and Yorkshire [Scampton, Waddington and Finningley for those who want to know], I've grown up around fast jets and heavy jets, and can remember on one occasion just after the Gulf War being up the local church tower on a guided tour and having a Tornado fly over at such a height that it was lower than the top of the tower.

Up until 5 years ago, we used to get Tornados, Tucanos, F15s and other miljets coming extremely low level over the house [we're only 10 miles from where the TTTE GR1 crashed near Mattersey in the 90's], and I can't say I noticed them that much.

If anything, the heavy passenger aircraft bimbling into Manchester and sometimes Doncaster make more noise than any low flying military a/c I've seen.
Click to expand...

Were you not around when the Vulcans were flying? I was at Finningley when it was a reserve strip, especially for exercises.
 
Kev M said:
If you think about it Dave, there is a huge difference between standing around on a hillside, waiting for something you expect to come along (and from the pictures I've seen generally below the level where you're stood) and something approaching from behind unexpectedly as you're minding you're own business. The noise levels may be similar but the surprise factor makes a huge difference to the overall effect. You (and others) shouldn't be so quick to dismiss other peoples' opinions on the matter.
Click to expand...

tis a valid point, I've been caught unawares up there by a rather lost american and it did feel louder but I still wouldn't say oppressively so
 
Byker28i said:
Were you not around when the Vulcans were flying? I was at Finningley when it was a reserve strip, especially for exercises.
Click to expand...

I'm 27, so the only times I've seen the Vulcan have been at Air Displays.
 
jerry12953 said:
I get your point, but by that reckoning few people could have opinions on anything.

To all those people who don't understand what it's like, imagine you're walking along in the hills, often miles from anywhere, minding your own business, and within a split second the universe is just a mass of roaring noise, and you can't even stand up because of it.

For me that is NOT what the countryside is about. Not one bit.
Click to expand...

To be honest jerry thats why we flock to the low fly area`s with our cameras, i used to love the low flying tornado`s flying over my house (which is also in the countryside) now there gone i have to travel to wales to get em!
 
rmt1982 said:
I'm 27, so the only times I've seen the Vulcan have been at Air Displays.
Click to expand...

Same here...I've only ever seen one once...Southend Airshow 1991 and by god it was loud. Louder than anything I've seen since. I remember the pilot coming low and slow over the pier (for anyone that's ever been to Southend - going towards Leigh) and then rammed the throttles forward and screamed upto what must have been nearly 10000ft...took a good 5 minutes for all the smoke to clear off the flightline!

As a child that was something very special, and as a geeky kid, I went and bought the Airfix model the next day :geek:
 
is it possible for one of these bad boys to creep up on you????
we have low flying jets down here and i can hear them coming long before i see them.
 
jerry12953 said:
I get your point, but by that reckoning few people could have opinions on anything.

To all those people who don't understand what it's like, imagine you're walking along in the hills, often miles from anywhere, minding your own business, and within a split second the universe is just a mass of roaring noise, and you can't even stand up because of it.

For me that is NOT what the countryside is about. Not one bit.
Click to expand...

But it last seconds and is gone. It's not like some chav driving around in his nova with his music blaring.

I've grown up living out in the sticks and when jets go over no one really cares. I've also got family that lived in Dinas Mawddwy for years and none of the locals care about the jets flying over them.
 
The Scottish Borders where I grew up (20 odd years ago now :() had loads of low flying aircraft - Tornados, F4 Phantoms, F1-11s, Buccaneers, Hawks, Harriers, Hunters and F16s and F15s on occassion when Nato exercises were on - it was awesome! :)

You had people complaining about the noise back then and the effect of livestock, it's nothing new and it can't practically change - people are always keen to be rid of the "problem", but in reality somebody has to deal with it as it's an essential skill. 99% of people didn't have a problem with it, and it was obviously a huge bonus for a teenage lad! I remember we even got a 15 minute extension on a maths' exam due to a large Nato exercise on the day :).

Back in the (original) Gulf War, it was our Tornadoes that went in ahead of the rest of the game because the RAF were apparently acknowledged as the low flying experts due to our intensive low flying training, and they were to take out the SAM sites to enable easier subsequent air operations, and also to crater Iraqi runways which I believe is done from low level with cluster bombs (banned now I think - unless you're the USA :) - but I'm sure there's a modern day equivalent).

As someone said, they suddenly sneak up on you and scare the crap out of you. That's kinda the point of low flying and why it's important. :)

Edit: and the highlight of my day yesterday was seeing & hearing a Typhoon go over Calver in the Peak District completely unexpectedly. Felt like a young lad all over again! :)
 
As I said earlier there are huge swathes of Iraq and Afghanistan available for LL flying with little inherent risk to aircraft and pilots (the mostly uninhabited bits).
There is a well-known military saying, "train as you fight".
Maybe now is the time to implement that especially with the advent of these exciting new training grounds (oops, countries) being available.
 
davek said:
As I said earlier there are huge swathes of Iraq and Afghanistan available for LL flying with little inherent risk to aircraft and pilots (the mostly uninhabited bits).
There is a well-known military saying, "train as you fight".
Maybe now is the time to implement that especially with the advent of these exciting new training grounds (oops, countries) being available.
Click to expand...

You utter, utter berk...are you seriously expecting pilots to train in conflict areas?
What about the service support elements, where will they stay? And thier families? What about them? Do they get to live in the 'uninhabited bits' too?
What a load of [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER]...:cuckoo:
 
Arkady said:
You utter, utter berk...are you seriously expecting pilots to train in conflict areas?
What about the service support elements, where will they stay? And thier families? What about them? Do they get to live in the 'uninhabited bits' too?
What a load of [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER]...:cuckoo:
Click to expand...

Whoa up there big boy!!

They can train on detachments (as usual)
They choose areas (within the countries) not in conflict (as usual)
Service support and combat service support can be put in place (as usual)
The support base does not necessarilly need to be in country (eg base in Turkey (NATO)/ train in Iraq) or base in Pakistan (big chums), train in Afghanistan)
Families will stay at home (as usual)

What exactly is the problem?

And less of the "berk" please;)

PS I spent a very happy detachment in Iserlohn once - very friendly teachers as I recall!!
 
Trainee pilots do not go on 'detachments'...for obvious reasons...they're not trained to do so...
Who decides which are the safe areas? Us? The insurgents? Please, do tell...
Service and support cannot just be 'put in place' without the infrastructure present...
Politics prohibits the use of 'other countries' such as Turkey - ever wondered why there are no support bases in Turkey at present? Derrrr...
All of the options above, even if viable, would cost far more of the tax-payers money than training in the UK...

Are you seriously proposing any of this as a solution?
Then you are a berk.
 
Arkady said:
Trainee pilots do not go on 'detachments'...for obvious reasons...they're not trained to do so...
Who decides which are the safe areas? Us? The insurgents? Please, do tell...
Service and support cannot just be 'put in place' without the infrastructure present...
Politics prohibits the use of 'other countries' such as Turkey - ever wondered why there are no support bases in Turkey at present? Derrrr...
All of the options above, even if viable, would cost far more of the tax-payers money than training in the UK...

Are you seriously proposing any of this as a solution?
Then you are a berk.
Click to expand...

Well, we can agree to differ but I think (actually, know) you are incorrect on just about all the counts (politics will always get in the way of good military stuff but I believe Incirlik is still a handy NATO base and I have worked out of Karachi) in your above post. I trust you have no service aviation background?;)
 
got agree with arkady on this

we trained on 432s in canada but its a whole different thing

compared to setting up in a country we are supposed to leaving and who dont want us in the first place.

not to mention logistics,wear on the aircraft in those conditions etc.etc.
 
Training abroad is not a player. My husband is an RAF instructor and you couldn't imagine the logistic 'tail' behind flying training unless you experienced it first hand.

Cheesy makes some valid points regarding the validity of low flying training; I'm sure the economic boost to Wales of the RAF (and other military) bases more than offsets to upset caused to such a small percentage of people.

I'm not sure about the recent slanging match between Arkady and davek. Arkady, in your previous posts you have maintained the high ground by using well reasoned, logical arguments. Your latest argument is both logical and well reasoned (and in my view correct) and therefore doesn't need any amplifying insults - some people are genuinley not as knowledgable as others, either through ignorance or mis information.

Finally, the person threatening the pilots and mentioning ejection - please get a life, do you have any idea what happens to the body during ejection?

A_J
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top