Mach loop...The end is neigh

Trappe

Trappe

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Rory
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Local farmers and tree huggers have been complaining about the noise for quite some time now.

This is an article in the local paper

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nor...aft-after-damage-to-livestock-55578-26175885/


It will be on TV tonight on S4C 09:30 Taro 9 (you should be able to view it on Sky) Subtitles are available.

I have been in the hills photographing the aircraft for a few years now. On many an occasion they fly over live stock. I have yet to see any flinch or run etc.

Call me a cynic but the £700,000 paid out:cuckoo:

Just to get one thing clear....I have many friends as farmers and I live around 30 miles from the loop. I have yet to hear one of them saying anything bad about the low fliers.

In fact one of them enjoys seeing them and has the occasional look at my shots.
 
Think national security will over rule a local scarmounger. But does explain the roumers they are opening the low fly area in Irland again. Also has anyone pointed out the number of people that visit the area just to see the jets low ?
 
As for pilots performing for the cameras.........An interesting comment from Cheesy

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_H
OK I see, so the pilots will 'perform' when they know they have an audience


Cheers
Ian


Err........ no. If anything, the presence of so many lenses documenting our flying means we are more likely to be risk adverse! Strict rules govern our max IAS, max AoB and min height. Anyone unable to comply with these rules should not wear a pilots brevet. Anyone who thinks that profesional aircrew would risk that brevet for an enthusiast with a long lens in very much mistaken.

See the HUD shots on the 4 10 10 thread from M. I saw the 'togs from 0.5 nm to 1 nm away. At 7 miles a minute that would have given me between 4 and 8 seconds to 'perform' - nonsense! Note that I saw them because they were skylined on a ridge, not because of what they were wearing.

Re-brief over!

Cheesy "
 
Can't see how it would scare the children myself. I would say most kids love seeing fast jets up close.

When I was up there the people nearby seemed positive about them.

Ignoring the money it brings to the area especially in the summer with people making trips purely to shoot and view the aircraft. I would say the person just sounds like a busybody. And 800 signatures on a petition is hardly that big. I reckon we could get more than that to keep the fast jets at the loop.
 
what a load of crap. by now the animals will be used to it, and I can guarantee that!

Also.. where the hell are the RAF meant to train pilots for low flying!?
 
Funny that no one mentions the benefit of RAF Valley to the local economy, I believe its the islands single largest employer. If the MoD announced that RAF Valley was to close the locals would be up in arms.

Trappe - I had to read your post twice, I thought I recognized it!

Additionally, reading the Daily Post article, I was interested to see that Dave was given a battlefield promotion! How much credibility do these journalists have?

Cheesy
 
Cheesy,

Can't you flip one off (er... accidentally of course) at the dozy old bat who's organised this petition? ;)

I'll find out where she lives and paint a big white bullseye on her roof! :D

Joking aside, I can't see 'em closing down the low-fly areas... this sort of story's been in and out of the news for years and nothing's really come of it!

Si
 
After watching the programe it was more level than expected but still biased to the complaints. But what has made me laugh is the fact its taken 2 years to get 800 signatures and thats also from country fairs and the eisteddfod. Also find it funny there was no views from holiday makers in the area. During all the filming that was done there was only one low fly caught on tape and that was a c130 that you did not notice till the interviewer stopped to get the camera man to get it on film, and you could hear the talking over it if they where to of carried on.
 
.Hi,

I didn't see the programme, but photographers wanting low-level flights to continue because they like to photograph them....

That really is a bit rich.

Living elsewhere in the lowfly zone, I wouldn't say low flying jets ruin my life, but they ARE frightening. They can appear out of nothing, and they ARE ear-ruiningly loud. Many's the time I've been driving and their sudden roar has made me think I'm being overtaken by some huge speeding monster.

However I can't see it ever stopping while this country goes to war.

j
 
Viper said:
Also.. where the hell are the RAF meant to train pilots for low flying!?
Click to expand...


Isn't that why we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan! Plenty of excellent LL flying opportunities over there - and no protests from the locals either, bargain!

BTW, those Germans must be really missing the RAF and I'm sure their livestock is unhappy too with their newly found pastoral peace. Really....:)
 
I live in an area very near to a RAF base, it's probably not an official low fly zone but we get the tornadoes and Sea rescue helicopters low enough to wave to the guys standing in the doors. We've got horses, it's not a problem.

Oh, and I've reinstated the rest of your post which was fair enough :)
 
dod said:
I live in an area very near to a RAF base, it's probably not an official low fly zone but we get the tornadoes and Sea rescue helicopters low enough to wave to the guys standing in the doors. We've got horses, it's not a problem.
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agreed, tonkas fly pretty low over where our horses are in herefordshire and even my horse who is nervous as hell does not take any notice of them at all!
 
I wanted it to be known that there are other, very strong, opinions about lowflying jets here in mid-wales, than those of most of the posters so far.

The "offensive" part of my post was included to demonstrate how angry lowflying jets make me feel, personally. I don't think I could be described as a farmer or a tree-hugger.

There's also the political aspect of it all as well, but now is not the time or place.

j
 
jerry12953 said:
I wanted it to be known that there are other, very strong, opinions about lowflying jets here in mid-wales, than those of most of the posters so far.

The "offensive" part of my post was included to demonstrate how angry lowflying jets make me feel, personally. I don't think I could be described as a farmer or a tree-hugger.

There's also the political aspect of it all as well, but now is not the time or place.

j
Click to expand...
it has been going on since ww2 and i am willing to bet that you didnt live there before it started
 
alastairb said:
well if you moved there while it was going on, and then complain about it.
thats like moving to beside an airport and then complaining about it imo
Click to expand...

I get your point, but by that reckoning few people could have opinions on anything.

To all those people who don't understand what it's like, imagine you're walking along in the hills, often miles from anywhere, minding your own business, and within a split second the universe is just a mass of roaring noise, and you can't even stand up because of it.

For me that is NOT what the countryside is about. Not one bit.
 
alastairb said:
it has been going on since ww2 and i am willing to bet that you didnt live there before it started
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You're not really trying to draw comparison between the speed and noise levels of a spitfire and a GR4 are you?
 
800 signatures in two years? Sheesh, that's a force to be reckoned with, on average, 1.09 signatures a day, sit up and take notice! :clap::D
 
jerry12953 said:
.Hi,

I didn't see the programme, but photographers wanting low-level flights to continue because they like to photograph them....

That really is a bit rich.

j
Click to expand...

This is one of the points I made that the programe did not talk to anyone from the area other than the 4 main complainants. The only other main people that where involved where a butcher on Angelsey moaning about if the base closed, a trainer from raf valley, a idiot mp, and a scientised that did noise level test and found that they where low. But where of suficent level to get whats known as the startle responce.

As for the claim that they show boat for the togs I point to the quote from cheesy.
 
Our Armed forces are second to none because of the training that they receive. So what would you prefer? A military that when it goes to war looses all it's weaponry and personnel because of inadequate training. Or one that has been trained and knows how to defend it self from the enemy. Low flying comes into this remit. I know which force I would want and am getting to protect the free country I live in.
 
Obviously some of you aviation enthusiasts have quite a vested interest in this so from an outsider's point of view, how relevant is low level flying in a modern warzone?

I thought it was all GPS guided bombs and beyond-visual-range stand-off missiles.

Low-level flying of Hercs and helicopters I can understand but with modern weaponry that isn't about putting feet on the ground is there really that great a need for it?
 
Kev M said:
You're not really trying to draw comparison between the speed and noise levels of a spitfire and a GR4 are you?
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No, I don't think he is, but the point is that if it's an area known to be a practice zone for our defence force aircraft and has been for all those years, then don't chose to buy a house there then moan about the noise, there are plenty more places in this country, indeed in Wales, that you could live without such 'inconvenience', its the ultimate in nimby-ism in my opinion.

Oh and btw Kev, I find the sound of a fighter jet [I am a girl, don't expect me to identify them by name] as exciting as that of a WWII spit or similar, both make the hairs on your neck stand up :D
 
I moved into the "low flying" area in the early 70's so I speak from experience. To be honest todays traffic is nothing to what it used to be.

Aircraft today are a lot cleaner and quieter than aircraft of days gone by...Lightning, Phantom and Bucaneers..Ok, there are exceptions with the F15 but they are also fairly rare these days.

If you wanted noise you should have been in the are just before the Falklands war. The gloves were off then and I can recall seeing Harriers at Flymo level in mid Wales.

The only good point raised on last nights TV programme was by Mrs Oliver (the woman who lives below Corris Corner) was the introduction of low level timetables. That way everyone is ready and waiting.



It has been mentioned on another forum...How would these people feel if one of their sons / daughters were in a war zone and needed close air support and failed to get it through lack of experience or training from the pilots ?
 
Kev M said:
Obviously some of you aviation enthusiasts have quite a vested interest in this so from an outsider's point of view, how relevant is low level flying in a modern warzone?

I thought it was all GPS guided bombs and beyond-visual-range stand-off missiles.

Low-level flying of Hercs and helicopters I can understand but with modern weaponry that isn't about putting feet on the ground is there really that great a need for it?
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No idea but on a personal basis if the low flying stopped tomorrow I'd just look for something else to photograph.
 
Low fly traffic is heavily reduced from my times in the RAF. For starters the RAF is 36K personnel now, was 96K personnel with many, many more squadrons. Also training budget is heavily restricted now with money ddiverted to pay for the ongoing conflicts.

My parents lived near Rhayder and we frequently had low flying hawks, harriers and hercules. Only annoying when we were out clay shooting on the hillside and had to stop when they flew under us. It's very, very rare that they 'roar' exactly over your heads as one person claimed.


Kev M said:
You're not really trying to draw comparison between the speed and noise levels of a spitfire and a GR4 are you?
Click to expand...

Time for this link again - Soundtrack at the ennd includes a few F's - NSFW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvDDDKnNhuE

[youtube]hvDDDKnNhuE[/youtube]
 
Kev M said:
Obviously some of you aviation enthusiasts have quite a vested interest in this so from an outsider's point of view, how relevant is low level flying in a modern warzone?

I thought it was all GPS guided bombs and beyond-visual-range stand-off missiles.

Low-level flying of Hercs and helicopters I can understand but with modern weaponry that isn't about putting feet on the ground is there really that great a need for it?
Click to expand...

trying to think of a good analogy and all i can come up with is:

if you were the manager of a football team would you stop all of your defenders practicing shooting and penalties, and your attackers practicing defencive techniques? just because it may not happen all that often theres no excuse for not being prepared.. who knows what situation may arise where low level flying under radar is necessary etc.
 
From: http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/AirSafetyandAviation/LowFlying/

Low flying remains an essential skill for military aircrew. UK forces have deployed repeatedly to potential trouble spots around the world usually with little or no warning. They have to undertake a variety of roles including reconnaissance, fast-jet or helicopter operations, search and rescue, transporting troops or the delivery of humanitarian aid to remote locations. Whatever missions we ask our Armed Forces to undertake the aircrew must be able to fulfil the task as effectively as possible, often without time for "work-up" training. Current Operations around the world see aircrew of both fixed and rotary wing aircraft undertaking operations at low level. They are only able to do this through specialist training gained through the use of the UK Low Flying System.


The UK Military Low Flying System covers the open airspace of the whole of the UK and surrounding overseas areas from the surface to 2,000 feet above the ground or mean sea level.

Military fixed wing aircraft are judged to be low flying when they are less than 2000 feet minimum separation distance from the ground. Light propeller driven aircraft and helicopters are judged to be low flying below 500 feet minimum separation distance from the ground.

(minimum separation distance is defined as the distance that must be maintained between any part of an aircraft in flight and the ground, water or any object. It does not apply to separation between aircraft in the same formation).

Low Flying The Facts

* Is an essential skill that provides aircrew with one of the best chances of survival
* Is a highly demanding skill which can only be maintained through continuous and realistic training
* Is conducted with the safety of people on the ground, our aircrew, and other airspace users as the overriding concern
* Is rigorously controlled and continuously monitored
* Has reduced since 1988 - the total number of sorties by a third and those by jets by more than half
 
Kev M said:
Obviously some of you aviation enthusiasts have quite a vested interest in this so from an outsider's point of view, how relevant is low level flying in a modern warzone?

I thought it was all GPS guided bombs and beyond-visual-range stand-off missiles.

Low-level flying of Hercs and helicopters I can understand but with modern weaponry that isn't about putting feet on the ground is there really that great a need for it?
Click to expand...

Two things here mate:

1. Try 'googling' the phrase 'show of force/presence'. A lot of the use of fast air in Afghanistan is deterrence, proving to the Taliban that the guys on the ground will be backed up with significant kinetic attacks if required. This involves flying low and fast (much lower than the peacetime UK rules that you all witness in the UKLFS).

2. The next phrases I'd like you to look at are:

Asymetric warfare
SA-15 Gauntlet
SA-10 Grumble
SA-12 Gladiator

Air power can deliver incredible results, but to obtain the best from air power you must spend a lot of money. The other option is to fight asymetrically, the SAMs listed above are Russian in origin, frighteningly effective and sold to the highest bidder. The best way to defeat them - avoid them(difficult if they are well placed), or fly low and fast giving the SAM operators the minimum reaction time to employ the weapons. These systems would have no problem shooting down a standard GPS bomb lofted from a standoff range. I accept that these systems are not ranged against us in our current areas of operation, but only an idiot would confuse the current conflict with the future of all conflicts.

As an aside, can anyone tell me what was written by jerry12953 regarding aircrew ejecting? A PM will do.

Hope this helps,

Cheesy
 
Having nearly cr**ped myself a few times because of the low-flyers whilst walking around Snowdonia I can see how it could be a bit of a nuisance if you lived on the low-fly route.

It has been going on for a long time though and the area is very well known. Then considering the relatively small population it affects and the fact that it's a necessary evil, add to that the money it generates for Anglesey/North Wales then I think it's certainly here to stay.

To be fair 800 signatures doesn't sound many but the whole population of Wales is only 3mill & most of them live around Cardiff !!

Simon
 
Like all things it's a question of balance. Yes jets are noisy, but only for seconds, it probably seems longer, and how many times a day, it isn't as if it's a constant stream, they aren't even as regular as living alongside a railway. Just need to keep things in perspective. That said I probably wouldn't buy a house there.
 
Interesting how people react to aircraft noise, i assume the area talked about is pretty rural and does not affect too many people.

I visit the North of Norway on a regular basis as my wifes family all live there in one of the largest northern cities, Bodo.
Bodo is the main base for the Norwegiam airforce F16,s in the North, and their base is situated on the edge of the city and shared with civilian aircraft (as are most Norwegian airports).

Every day of the year fully armed F16,s take off on patrol, mainly to the Russian border area as them naughty Ruskies keep accidently straying into Norwegian airspace.

They take off in 2s or 3s with their afterburners on, the noise is incredible, amplified by the mountains surrounding the city, got to love hearing them take off every day.
4497185669_dcf6b3b3f0_o.jpg

The airport is about 1km to the right of the photo.

Everybody i spoke to there loves having the base there as not only does it give them a sense of security, but provides employment and contributes to the wealth of the area.
Everybody just accepts the Airforce being there and the ensuing noise alomg with it.

Took this photo from the house we stay at as one came into land, shot at 200mm and not cropped to try and show the height they come over.
4497821262_c66509e503_o.jpg


No need to slate the photographs as i am aware of the poor quality, my excuse is that i dont usually photograph aircraft:razz:, only showed them to illustrate this post.
 
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