Let's talk....electric cars

srichards said:
Model 3 is even more to buy than the model S. They're more like £40k.
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2017 model s is about 43, model 3 is 40. For that difference I'd have the s.

Those are Tesla approved so I can get cheaper with less warranty. I guess the difference is that the s has been out longer so I can get a 2015 for 35ish.
 
Potentially a smaller NHS bill when ICE emissions fall far enough (having said that, I read somewhere [possibly the Telegraph motoring pages] that the majority of particulates come from tyres, brakes and clutches rather than tail pipes...)
 
EV particulates from brakes is far less as you use regen not friction brakes most of the time. It's a big win. Tyre wear I haven't noticed as being worse than a normal ICE.
 
Nod said:
Talking to another EV owner (another older Leaf), he said that for the few times he needed to do out of range trips, he rented ICE cars, Like us, he has the Leaf to keep as many emissions out of town but motorways etc. tend to avoid city centres!
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This is what I'd have to do but the spontaneity goes and all the faff on just adds up. I/we may not be able to get up in the morning and say "Lets go out for the day" as if the mileage is a problem we're going to have to arrange a hire car or go through all the faff on and expense and unreliability of the train. I checked a location yesterday and at my usual parking spot there are two charging points and of course if they're working and free you have to join up and use their card. Madness IMO. These things should all take the usual credit or switch cards if not cash.

With these tiny ranges lots of journeys like a day out in Whitby or Scarborough are only going to be possible if recharging is going to be possible at the destination or at some point along the way possibly meaning an extra stop and time out from the main purpose and that will all take planning and even then fingers are going to have to be crossed that the charging points are working, available and that there's no problem using them. The whole thing IMO needs standardising and simplifying and massively expanding.

The more I look at this strangely and perversely the more I want one but also I realise that today and in the near future electric just can't offer the spontaneity, flexibility and reliability that ICE cars provide in some parts of the country, not outside of the well catered for areas.
 
JonathanRyan said:
2017 model s is about 43, model 3 is 40. For that difference I'd have the s.

Those are Tesla approved so I can get cheaper with less warranty. I guess the difference is that the s has been out longer so I can get a 2015 for 35ish.
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I don't need detail but if you're going to buy one secondhand and you're going to finance it through a loan or even out of savings, I would seriously consider a lease. Once you do the calculations you should find the costs fairly similar, of course you don't end up with the car but ultimately you don't anyway as an older 2nd hand car eventually goes end of life and you're back into the cycle of buying another. Of course for those dealing in bangernomics this doesn't apply.

I've got running costs for all my cars over the last 10 or 15 years, the cheapest I've run was a a ten year old Clio because it kept it's value close to the price I payed but it needed lots of work at MOT time, which of course means the cash flow is required at that time. The most expensive was some 4by4 Kia Sportage. The leased e208 is coming in closer to the Clio than the Kia and cheaper than my current diesel. The diesel is now going end of life, new cambelt, new clutch soon, aircon has gone, it's reaching that point where I never know how much I need to spend and the repairs are close to exceeding the value left in the car.

Any car costs so much a month to run whether you own it or not and when you look at electric and exclude fuel costs and you look at new so you exclude repairs other than your own fault repairs and maintenace (which can be included but service costs are half or less on EV's), leasing begins to make sense
 
woof woof said:
This is what I'd have to do but the spontaneity goes and all the faff on just adds up. I/we may not be able to get up in the morning and say "Lets go out for the day" as if the mileage is a problem we're going to have to arrange a hire car or go through all the faff on and expense and unreliability of the train. I checked a location yesterday and at my usual parking spot there are two charging points and of course if they're working and free you have to join up and use their card. Madness IMO. These things should all take the usual credit or switch cards if not cash.

With these tiny ranges lots of journeys like a day out in Whitby or Scarborough are only going to be possible if recharging is going to be possible at the destination or at some point along the way possibly meaning an extra stop and time out from the main purpose and that will all take planning and even then fingers are going to have to be crossed that the charging points are working, available and that there's no problem using them. The whole thing IMO needs standardising and simplifying and massively expanding.

The more I look at this strangely and perversely the more I want one but also I realise that today and in the near future electric just can't offer the spontaneity, flexibility and reliability that ICE cars provide in some parts of the country, not outside of the well catered for areas.
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But you appear to be basing it on the 70 mile range of an 8 year old Leaf. The average range now is closer to 200 miles. I've just looked on google maps and it's 26 miles from Redcar to Whitby.
 
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Marc said:
But you appear to be basing it on the 70 mile range of an 8 year old Leaf. The average range now is closer to 200 miles. I've just looked on google maps and it's 26 miles from Redcar to Whitby.
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Via the cost road according to the AA it's 36miles from home to west cliff so that's a round trip pushing the range of the 8 year old electric car but as I assume all battery power cars will lose range over the years or wont be fully charged every morning as a snap shot it's maybe not completely unfair and all hope isn't lost if we assume that the charging infrastructure improves. In the future maybe batteries will be economically replaceable when they lose range. I just don't know.

Another example. We had a day out the other week with a round trip of just short of 100 miles which involved parking in a field with unusually for a field no charging points. Trips like that will need a lot more planning and potentially extra stop offs just as you need to do with petrol but they'll need to be more often with an aging shorter range electric and wont be the few minute stop off just about anywhere that filling up a petrol car are. Even with a newer electric there still could be problems which could need planning and time and diversions to overcome until things improve.

I have two cars at the mo. A 21 year old MX5 and a 14 year old hatch back and both are reliable and allow long and fuel wise pretty hassle free journeys. That could change in the future if petrol stations become a rarity. Who knows what'll happen and if electric car range drops over the years I suppose one answer is to change them more often.

I think I'm perhaps taking not quite a worst case view but more a view of what could happen in areas like mine (not a well catered for relatively wealthy area with with good electric infrastructure) whereas some here seem to be taking the view that there's no real problem and even if there is it can be solved by finding charging points or hiring an ICE car.

I'm undecided at the mo. I posted a thread a while back about buying a new car and I'm still thinking (got the choice down to three though) and I don't know if it'll be electric or petrol yet. I suppose now and the near future are really silly times for me or anyone to spend a lot on a car unless you live in a well catered for area and see longer journeys as not being a problem. No one really knows what's going to happen but you only live once.
 
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If range was a priority for us with the EV, we'd have spent more for one with a bigger battery rather than going for a relatively cheap one. We've had it for about 5 years and the battery still reports the same range as it did when we bought it (when fully charged) so the battery doesn't appear to have degraded over that time. We've never rapid charged it which is apparently one of the things that helps kill them and we rarely put it under protracted heavy load, although we do use it for a couple of round trips that include 15-20 miles of dual carriageway where it gets to stretch its legs a bit.
 
It's only the Nissan Leaf that has much battery degradation at all. It's not an issue with the rest of them.
 
Ours doesn't seem to have degraded since we've had it. Of course, it may have degraded before we bought it!
 
woof woof said:
I think I'm perhaps taking not quite a worst case view but more a view of what could happen in areas like mine (not a well catered for relatively wealthy area with with good electric infrastructure) whereas some here seem to be taking the view that there's no real problem and even if there is it can be solved by finding charging points or hiring an ICE car.
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I think that's the real issue: right now, they make sense for some users in some areas. Possibly they will never be right for all users in all areas. The difficult thing is figuring out of you're one of the people they work for.

I'm not in a rich area and as I mentioned there are for example no useable superchargers within an hour of here. But all the directors I can go in have them so as long as I can charge at home it may not be an issue.
Obsima said:
I don't need detail but if you're going to buy one secondhand and you're going to finance it through a loan or even out of savings, I would seriously consider a lease. Once you do the calculations you should find the costs fairly similar, of course you don't end up with the car but ultimately you don't anyway as an older 2nd hand car eventually goes end of life and you're back into the cycle of buying another. Of course for those dealing in bangernomics this doesn't apply.

I've got running costs for all my cars over the last 10 or 15 years, the cheapest I've run was a a ten year old Clio because it kept it's value close to the price I payed but it needed lots of work at MOT time, which of course means the cash flow is required at that time. The most expensive was some 4by4 Kia Sportage. The leased e208 is coming in closer to the Clio than the Kia and cheaper than my current diesel. The diesel is now going end of life, new cambelt, new clutch soon, aircon has gone, it's reaching that point where I never know how much I need to spend and the repairs are close to exceeding the value left in the car.

Any car costs so much a month to run whether you own it or not and when you look at electric and exclude fuel costs and you look at new so you exclude repairs other than your own fault repairs and maintenace (which can be included but service costs are half or less on EV's), leasing begins to make sense
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Thanks. If I decide to buy then I'll definitely look at leasing. But as far as I know, most lease plans only deal with new cars. Buying a second hand tesla would be an awful lot cheaper than leasing a new one. But leasing a hyundai could make a lot of sense as they are too new to have heavily discounted second hands.
 
I went through all the arguments for and against EV at the turn of the year and decided to go half way; we bought a 2022 Honda Jazz e:HEV Hybrid, it drives like an EV (No gearbox), will run in pure EV mode for a short distance, or with it's Atkinson cycle petrol engine driving a generator to top up the battery and drive the electric motor, or direct drive using the petrol engine. It has an extra transmission mode B which recovers more energy using regenerative braking and you can drive it using a single pedal.....

It will easily do 70-75mpg around town, at motorway speeds it is still good for 55-60mpg.
 
Nod said:
Ours doesn't seem to have degraded since we've had it. Of course, it may have degraded before we bought it!
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I've seen 2.3% per year degradation quoted as an average but I have no idea how scientific that is. EVs are still too 'new' for any common issues to become obvious, except perhaps some early Leafs. Battery tech has moved on a lot since those cars were sold as new though.
 
srichards said:
It's only the Nissan Leaf that has much battery degradation at all. It's not an issue with the rest of them.
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The original Zoë was possibly worse. A work colleague had one from the second year of production. Range in cool weather just about 45 miles, and he owned the battery. He also described it as the worst built car he'd ever owned, and their other car was an Astra.

OTOH he bought another Zoë last year and is much happier with that, both build and range.

This thread is interesting. We may replace the wife's mini Cooper S with an EV in a year or 2, though I've no idea what with.
 
I don't have a leccy car but was looking into them quite extensively up till recently.

A couple of friends have tesla model 3s (and one with an S but that is way out of my range). Lovely to drive and the tech you get in them is fantastic, though I don't know how much of it would start to feel gimmicky after a couple of months.

Only thing that really puts me off is the build quality seems to be a bit hit and miss. But also they are a bit common and not a great looker, it's no Fiat Multipla but I find they look a bit froggy from the front.

I really like the look of the Polestar 2 as an alternative. Built on a volvo chassis and by a company with a long heritage of car manufacturing so better build quality and a more engaging drive by all accounts. Not had a chance to drive one yet though.

Then the Kia EV6 GT came out and that has really got my interest, not really a proper comparison to the other two but possibly a more sensible choice with two young kids.

Unfortunately the whole cost of living thing has put my plans on hold, maybe not the right time to be committing to a new car. So looking to chance my fairly juicy ICE for something a bit more frugal to save some shekels for the time being until the world is a bit less fubared.
 
bass_junkie83 said:
Only thing that really puts me off is the build quality seems to be a bit hit and miss. But also they are a bit common and not a great looker, it's no Fiat Multipla but I find they look a bit froggy from the front.
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This is one thing I've noticed, some electric cars are just... hideous.
 
Despite my worst case scenarios I've decided I'm going to visit a dealer and take a look at electric. I might not buy one but you never know :D
 
JonathanRyan said:
I passed a couple of ioniqs on the motorway. They look like a cross between a cortina and a toaster.

I'm not entirely sure that I don't like the look it's just a bit odd. Like they come from a low budget Sci fi film.
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Sometimes things age well and grow on you. The key is it's only sometimes :D
 
If you're sat in a car, you don't really care what it looks like! What looks "normal" today would have looked impossibly futuristic 30 years ago and will look antiquated in 30 years time - if we still exist!
 
Nod said:
If you're sat in a car, you don't really care what it looks like! What looks "normal" today would have looked impossibly futuristic 30 years ago and will look antiquated in 30 years time - if we still exist!
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Well, that's not only just your view Nod it's how lots of people see it but perversely maybe some people do care what a car looks like and here's another point to consider...

If designing a car how would you design it? Would you prefer form over function and just not care what it looks like at all or would you consider aesthetics?
 
JonathanRyan said:
I passed a couple of ioniqs on the motorway. They look like a cross between a cortina and a toaster.

I'm not entirely sure that I don't like the look it's just a bit odd. Like they come from a low budget Sci fi film.
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I've had an Ioniq for 3 years and I honestly think it's a good looking car. I'm due to change cars and I was really looking forward to getting another one but they've stopped making them. :(
 
woof woof said:
Well, that's not only just your view Nod it's how lots of people see it but perversely maybe some people do care what a car looks like and here's another point to consider...

If designing a car how would you design it? Would you prefer form over function and just not care what it looks like at all or would you consider aesthetics?
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I have been known to walk away from a prospective car purchase because I didn't like the layout of the dashboard/instrument cluster. In particular I dislike the 'fashion' for everything being controlled from a huge touch screen, especially heating/ventilation controls.
 
broc said:
I have been known to walk away from a prospective car purchase because I didn't like the layout of the dashboard/instrument cluster. In particular I dislike the 'fashion' for everything being controlled from a huge touch screen, especially heating/ventilation controls.
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Yup. Same here. I like MX5's and I'm on my third and when I saw what they'd done to the latest I couldn't believe it. Plus I don't how they got that display screen in the car through the compliance assessments.
 
woof woof said:
Well, that's not only just your view Nod it's how lots of people see it but perversely maybe some people do care what a car looks like and here's another point to consider...

If designing a car how would you design it? Would you prefer form over function and just not care what it looks like at all or would you consider aesthetics?
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For myself, function over form. I've had 2 LandRovers and a Viva HA among others. The original E-Type is undeniably one of, if not THE most beautiful cars ever made but the early ones aren't much of a joy to drive.

Personally, I'd rather drive a sh*tbox and look at an early E-Type than be driving an early E-Type looking at a sh*tbox!
 
woof woof said:
Yup. Same here. I like MX5's and I'm on my third and when I saw what they'd done to the latest I couldn't believe it. Plus I don't how they got that display screen in the car through the compliance assessments.
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It was a close call for me between a Mini Cooper S convertible and an MX5 4 years ago, if I could have found a really good MX5 NC, I would have gone for that.
After much fruitless searching in the end I bought the Cooper S convertible. I liked the look of the MX5 ND apart from what they had done inside. The Mini is 'quirky' but I liked it. Sadly they have now stuck a digital display in front of the driver on the latest ones so no more Minis for me.

I hasten to say I am not anti-digital displays, both our new FIAT Ducato based motorhome and our recently acquired Honda Jazz e:HEV Hybrid have digital displays, it all depends how they have been engineered. Some of them look like an afterthought.......
 
woof woof said:
Yup. Same here. I like MX5's and I'm on my third and when I saw what they'd done to the latest I couldn't believe it. Plus I don't how they got that display screen in the car through the compliance assessments.
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I much prefer the look of the Mk 2/2.5 to the Mk 3 but the Mk 3 is a better car as well as being newer so that's what Mrs Nod bought.
 
Marc said:
I've had an Ioniq for 3 years and I honestly think it's a good looking car. I'm due to change cars and I was really looking forward to getting another one but they've stopped making them. :(
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Yeah - usually I either like the look of a car or I don't. The Ioniq I'm really not sure. I think if I bought one I'd grow to love the look - where I could never do that with a Multipla or a Twingo......
 
JonathanRyan said:
Yeah - usually I either like the look of a car or I don't. The Ioniq I'm really not sure. I think if I bought one I'd grow to love the look - where I could never do that with a Multipla or a Twingo......
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So......yesterday I was over in a big town and stopped by the Hyundai dealership. They wheeled out the Ioniq 5 for me to look at. Close up, it looks amazing, then I got inside. I'm pretty sure it's the most luxurious feeling car I've ever been in. It doesn't have the classic luxury things like walnut, dead cows and 6 inch deep carpet. It doesn't even have a drinks cabinet (or not one I found). But it's nothing like any car I've been in - it's full of tech and very comfortable. It's also enormous.

Unfortunately it was booked out so I couldn't drive it so I took a Kona round the block instead. Electric cars are way nicer to drive than last time I looked at them. Just tried to book a test drive for an EV6 but sadly a customer just stacked the only local demonstrator.....

I bet I keep the Honda. But if I don't I bet I end up with something Korean.
 
We have a Kia dealer in the village, and almost every other car around here is a Kia. They have come a long way, and as petrol head as I am, and as much of a Mini fan I am, I'm pretty sure my next car will be a Kia.

They didn't tell us before we moved in that owning a Kia & a dog is prerequisite to live here :ROFLMAO:
 
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Sorry guys, I have found this thread.......

JonathanRyan said:
Who has one? Do you like it?
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I (well, my wife) have had a Nissan Leaf for almost 5 years now, late 2014 car bought in 2017. It is used as daily car and works very well. I commute with it when my wife doesn't need it. Still manages my 60 miles commute from spring to autumn. Taken odometer from 18k, to ~53k now, mileage slowed down recent years as I WFH and wife's mileage is very low, only drives it locally and school runs. Wife is very used to the car and we plan to run this into the ground, I don't expect any problem with the battery or drivetrain. Even if it can only do 30 miles on a full charge, it'll be fine as local car and charged overnight.

I drove 56 miles on Sunday, to my parents and then around all the shops trying to find air-con stock for them. The Leaf were brilliant: pre-condition the cabin so it's not too hot, easily manages the drive from 100%. I re-charged back to 100% overnight and used 13 kWh, which translates to a cost of £1 at Octopus Go 7.5p/kWh tariff. Daytime is fixed at 35p/kWh fixed for 1 year, whereas price-cap variable tariff is expected to change to around 40p/kWh in October.
(if we drove my parent's ageing S40 petrol, ~30mpg, it would cost £14 at £1.90/l)


As more and more need to go to the office and my son starting Mon-Fri primary school in September. I have decided to get rid of my (or the long range family car) Skoda Octavia for a Tesla Model Y. I was waiting for a reasonably priced second hand Model 3, but unfortunately second hand prices are crazy right now. When decided to buy new, wife veto'd the 3 due to the beam across the rear seat and perceived downgrade from Octavia boot space. Model Y is bigger everywhere.

The Model Y and 3 are quoted over 300 miles, I expect around 250 miles any weather at motorway speeds and thus at least 200 miles between rapid charging stops. More than what we usually drive between comfort break. Recent day trips we took were all under 200 miles, so no need to think about charging just like current diesel.


Another benefit running EV as much as possible during high petrol/diesel prices is that there's a chance you can avoid paying full price all-together. I last purchased diesel when they were £1.76 in April. There's just under half-tank left as I drove the EV and used the ever improving rapid charging infrastructure to top up. I'm hoping I can wait it out until price goes back down below £1.80 for my last few diesel refuels.
 
Have now test driven both EV6 and Ioniq 5. They are remarkably similar to drive. I guess it's not surprising as they are essentially the same platform but they look totally different inside and out. It's actually quite funny to point the Ioniq (which feels like a largeish van inside) at a roundabout with a decent amount of power. It copes far better than you'd expect.

But......what is is it with these vehicles? Just had an email from the dealer where I saw the first Ioniq. He was hoping to get me back for an extended drive but somebody crashed it. The one I drove was just out of the body shop where one of the sales team has crashed it and EV6 demonstrators are thin on the ground because people keep crashing them.............. I'm guessing people get surprised by acceleration that comes on fast and doesn't stop :)
 
Could also be the amount of "engine braking" they have. With most electric cars, you take your foot off of the gas and slows down pretty rapidly as it uses the braking to help recharge the battery.
 
Maybe when pushed some EVs cope less well than might be expected? With the exception of Tesla's, most EVs seem to be driven cautiously around here - or maybe they were chosen by more conservative drivers?
 
Possibly the crashers haven't driven automatics much. All to easy to get confused and hit the wrong pedal - in my case, it was the clutch pedal I hit (at low speed with nothing behind me, luckily!) and it showed me just how effective the car's brakes are (this was in my Diesel auto rather than the Leaf. Had it been in the Leaf, I would have applied the "hand" brake...) Could also be the popularity of EVs with some older drivers who might be getting caught out by the surprising power/torque delivery.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Have now test driven both EV6 and Ioniq 5. They are remarkably similar to drive. I guess it's not surprising as they are essentially the same platform but they look totally different inside and out. It's actually quite funny to point the Ioniq (which feels like a largeish van inside) at a roundabout with a decent amount of power. It copes far better than you'd expect.

But......what is is it with these vehicles? Just had an email from the dealer where I saw the first Ioniq. He was hoping to get me back for an extended drive but somebody crashed it. The one I drove was just out of the body shop where one of the sales team has crashed it and EV6 demonstrators are thin on the ground because people keep crashing them.............. I'm guessing people get surprised by acceleration that comes on fast and doesn't stop :)
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It's a very common problem. I talked to a guy with a Kia Soul EV who had run it into the garden gate the second day he had it. A moment's inattention and lack of experience was all it took.
The problem comes I think because many salesmen themselves don't know enough about the product and the "purchaser" hasn't done enough (any) research, thinking it's just a car.
You do quickly get used to the way the car runs and learn to love the acceleration, if you survive the first few trips out lol.
 
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