Let's talk....electric cars

I had my first automatic in 2015. It was a learning experience as you get used to having the 3 pedals. There was quite a bit of air clutch and air gear changes. Now I'm the opposite and manual cars are such a faff...

Some electric cars have weird gear selectors compared to the standard Auto with the normal PRND stick. There's everything from one of those to dials, buttons, column shifts and screen swipes.

I don't think enough people spend time in a new to them car to check out where everything is before they drive off in it. Hitting the gas instead of the brake in a manual car also happens. I know someone that did that and took out about 3 cars in a car park. They claim their foot slipped but it seems to happen with a surprising regularity.

One BMW I drove had the brake pedal high up in the air and the accelerator was floor mounted. It was such a bad layout I got my foot stuck between the gas pedal and the brake. That was quite a brown trouser moment as it happened on a roundabout as I went to get the brake and didn't. Some car design seems to favour a narrow range of foot and shoe dimensions so that if you are outside them you either catch shoes on wrong pedals or get tiny feet stuck where they don't belong. I'm only a 6 so not that small but I'm amazed that pedal layout was passed as ok.
 
srichards said:
Some car design seems to favour a narrow range of foot and shoe dimensions so that if you are outside them you either catch shoes on wrong pedals or get tiny feet stuck where they don't belong. I'm only a 6 so not that small but I'm amazed that pedal layout was passed as ok.
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I have this problem with the Peugeot van I drive at work. I drive a 300bhp auto myself, this little manual van seems to have the gas & brake pedal really close, and at times, I hit the brakes but the gas as well. And I've only got size 8 feet!!
 
srichards said:
I don't think enough people spend time in a new to them car to check out where everything is before they drive off in it. Hitting the gas instead of the brake in a manual car also happens. I know someone that did that and took out about 3 cars in a car park. They claim their foot slipped but it seems to happen with a surprising regularity.
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I worked for a little while in claims and have heard this several times - either their foot slipped or the pedal "must have malfunctioned" :) Never heard of it in a manual but I bet it happens. Cars can go surprisingly fast in 1st if you let them.

Taken an Ioniq 5 out now and an EV6 twice. The second time in the EV6 I turned on a bunch of the toys - 70mph on a busy dual carriageway and it was performing faultlessly: slowing for traffic in front and accelerating when I moved out. When the traffic cleared on a bendy road it had to remind me to hold the steering wheel :D

They do have crazy amount of acceleration though. Even in my Skoda VrS with DSG auto box there was a gradual build up with a tiny hesitation as it changed up. An EV you just put your foot down and it's perfectly smooth until the passengers start screaming. It's a 2 tonne family car that I reckon could beat many drivers in a sports car on a standing quarter mile. Perhaps we'll see acceleration limiters before long.

The (not yet out and not to be confused with the GT line) GT is terrifying.

 
So I test drove Skoda Enyaq and Kia EV6, as well as Model Y again last weekend.

Both Skoda and Kia are very nice cars, but their EV-ness is lacking. The Skoda doesn't have rapid charger approach battery pre-conditioning, its infotainment system feels like modern version of my 2013 Octavia (laggy and doesn't present much info). The Kia is good on paper, but same story on infotainment system and the dealership experience cannot be any more traditional: price haggling, salesman BS on EV stuff he doesn't know, etc.

All we want is a good large family car for long distance road trip, to replace Skoda Octavia diesel. We want a car that we can jump in and drive, or the infotainment can save us if I miscalculated (as I've previously miscalculated with Leaf). Only Tesla and its whole ecosystem vertical integration can currently offer that.


In the end, I've decided to keep and proceed with my Model Y reservation. It's just no competition in my eyes. Especially not when others are asking similar price but are not yet competent EV. They all drive like my Nissan Leaf: good cars, but not good enough EV's.
 
wyx087 said:
So I test drove Skoda Enyaq and Kia EV6, as well as Model Y again last weekend.

Both Skoda and Kia are very nice cars, but their EV-ness is lacking. The Skoda doesn't have rapid charger approach battery pre-conditioning, its infotainment system feels like modern version of my 2013 Octavia (laggy and doesn't present much info). The Kia is good on paper, but same story on infotainment system and the dealership experience cannot be any more traditional: price haggling, salesman BS on EV stuff he doesn't know, etc.

All we want is a good large family car for long distance road trip, to replace Skoda Octavia diesel. We want a car that we can jump in and drive, or the infotainment can save us if I miscalculated (as I've previously miscalculated with Leaf). Only Tesla and its whole ecosystem vertical integration can currently offer that.
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Really interesting that you find the infotainment so important. One huge difference I find is the closed nature of Tesla - if you like their infotainment then it's perfect. If you don't then, well it's not. With Kia/Hyundai it has a decent system built in (or so it appears to me coming from a 2014 Honda) but if I don't like it, I can can just use Android Auto and swap the sounds to Spotify/Podbean/Tidal. If I find their traffic system lacking I can just fire up Google Nav or Waze or whatever is great next year. And when they want to charge me £1500 to update maps* I can just not do that :)

I've not yet driven a Tesla but I find their interiors very stark and also I wonder how distracting they are. Moving everything to a screen looks really cool but if you just want to change volume or a passenger wants to make it cooler on their side, it's hard to beat the immediacy of a turn knob.

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* I just checked and Honda map upgrades are surprisingly affordable - a friend got quoted 4 figures to upgrade his several years ago. Can't remember the make but I'm guessing something German.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Really interesting that you find the infotainment so important. One huge difference I find is the closed nature of Tesla - if you like their infotainment then it's perfect. If you don't then, well it's not. With Kia/Hyundai it has a decent system built in (or so it appears to me coming from a 2014 Honda) but if I don't like it, I can can just use Android Auto and swap the sounds to Spotify/Podbean/Tidal. If I find their traffic system lacking I can just fire up Google Nav or Waze or whatever is great next year. And when they want to charge me £1500 to update maps* I can just not do that :)

I've not yet driven a Tesla but I find their interiors very stark and also I wonder how distracting they are. Moving everything to a screen looks really cool but if you just want to change volume or a passenger wants to make it cooler on their side, it's hard to beat the immediacy of a turn knob.

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* I just checked and Honda map upgrades are surprisingly affordable - a friend got quoted 4 figures to upgrade his several years ago. Can't remember the make but I'm guessing something German.
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The Tesla Model 3 interiors don't appeal to me at all. The S does as you have a recessed screen and also the dash display. Infotainment is pretty good and it's streets ahead of any of the other EV rivals.

There are scroll wheels on the steering wheel and a few buttons so you can get at some functions like turning up the volume.

I've had quite a few different EVs over the last few years and the old Model S I have now is wayyyyy ahead of the others by miles. It's so nice just to set a destination and not have to be concerned about charging as the car works it all out and the superchargers just work. The main reason to have car play is that the in car infotainment isn't good enough. When it is you don't really need it. Navigation works so you don't need waze.

I had carplay on other cars but never used it as it was cable based not wireless so wireless bluetooth won each time.

In car maps are google so they're up to date all the time. Software updates are done regularly. Compared to other OEMS that do one update every 3 months and it changes some minor colours the tesla updates are way ahead. My car is a 2014 and other manufacturers wouldn't bother updating one this old I'm sure.
 
I personally think CarPlay and AndroidAuto are often used to cover up poor infotainment system. In all the reviews that talk about having these smartphone connectivity, it's usually following gripes with built-in infotainment systems. I've never used it in anger because my cars are too old for that (2013 and 2014). From my limited experience on rental/curtesy cars, it's not really a must-have for me.

What I really want from infotainment system are dedicated EV stuff: energy consumption graphing, power flow/use graphing, end of trip estimate, auto en-route charging stops, en-route charger availability and an open API for other applications to plug into. The end of trip battery percent estimate is the most important thing, if it's reliable (and Tesla calculations are very reliable from what I've seen), you can use it to judge when to unplug and go or whether need a top up on the way somewhere. No more need to do it in my head! I may have been blind, but I can't seen it in Kia or Skoda.

Skoda salesman looked slightly confused and said there isn't one. Kia salesman talks more BS than sense, more interested in me placing an order than knowing what he's selling. Tesla test drive experience is how it should be: here's the car, all yours for 30min, afterwards I'm here for any questions, no mention of ordering at all.


I suppose you could say there's also the fear of charger anxiety.
- Def. Charger anxiety: unknow whether one can access a working charger quickly on arriving at a planned charging stop.
Problem with my family's EV experience is that it's based upon 60 miles Nissan Leaf, it's difficult to drive beyond home range with it because whenever we need a charge, the search area is relatively small. So I often have to use locations with low number of chargers. Thus I get charger anxiety whether the charger is occupied? is it broken? is it working?

Other networks are always catching up, and that's great for everyone. Tesla have guaranteed access to all Tesla chargers plus all the other great networks. I will only ever want to stop at locations with 6+ chargers and I need sat-nav system to know if it's busy and re-route me automatically. The big charging network Ionity sponsored by many car manufacturers are only installing 4 chargers at each location. Gridserve replaced Electric Highway at motorway services, but most are in-place replacement of 2 chargers. MFG are doing great with 8+ at each location, but current overall coverage is not good.


I get where you are coming from for basic button stuff. I was trying to change temperature while driving and found it fiddly. Best is still in my Skoda: just turn the knob, each click is 0.5c. For me personally, I can live with those minor inconvenience for Tesla's vertical integration on overall EV experiences.

There's also efficiency. Skoda and Kia were driven around 30mph local roads, only a few very short acceleration bursts. Efficiency reading was around 3.1 mi/kWh. Tesla were at Welwyn garden city pop-up location, blasted down dual carriageway and quite a few hard accelerations, I got same 3.1 mi/kWh efficiency for a car with a lot more interior space.
 
So fun fact that I learnt yesterday: the "leather" in Teslas isn't. It has been and "animal free substitute" since about 2017 (varies by model). For me, this is good news, but I can quite understand other people would be annoyed if they think they are paying for leather and getting what is basically plastic. I'd imagine if you read ads by Tesla carefully it never actually says leather but lots of second hand adverts say it when it isn't true.

So anyway, now I need to think about Teslas again.
 
Last night got the text to make delivery appointment, out of 1, 2, or 3 September. I chose the Saturday. Exciting.

I then looked up Skoda Octavia, a very similar trim, engine and gearbox car, with slightly less miles but no heated seats or ACC, is asking £8260. I bought my Skoda over 5 years ago for £8800. I'd be very happy if I can sell it for over £7000 :D
 
I predicted this a very long time ago.
While they are trying to phase out ICE's they have to recover the money "lost" somewhere.

From the Autumn statement:-
From April 2025, electric vehicles will no longer be exempt from Vehicle Excise Duty.
 
Presumably the small ICE cars that are currently zero rated will also get charged? (No pun intended!)
 
Nod said:
Presumably the small ICE cars that are currently zero rated will also get charged? (No pun intended!)
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I don't know, I just assumed they all were exempt ( at the moment)
 
According to this:
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-fleet-news/electric-fleet-news/2022/11/17/autumn-statement-company-car-tax-for-evs-to-increase-by-1#:~:text=Currently%2C BIK for a pure,5% in 2027%2F28

This is VED and will be applied retrospectively to cars from 2017:
From the second year of registration onwards, they will move to the standard rate, currently £165 a year. Zero emission cars first registered between April 1, 2017, and March 31, 2025, will also pay the standard rate.
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Cobra said:
I predicted this a very long time ago.
While they are trying to phase out ICE's they have to recover the money "lost" somewhere.
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Of course tax will happen eventually. But not on charging, not EV-only tax per-mile like many have said.

But retrospectively for VED is a shock. Has VED ever been applied retrospectively?

I suppose it's their way of getting out of the "no tax before 2025" hole their predecessor dug, remembering they'll loose tax income from half of new car sales if it wasn't applied retrospectively.

Nod said:
Presumably the small ICE cars that are currently zero rated will also get charged? (No pun intended!)
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Must be a pre-2017 car that has really low emission to get this. Post 2017, all non-BEV pays the same tax. I don't think this will change anything for pre-2017 cars. According to that article, pre-2017 EV's still enjoy free VED.
 
Nod said:
Presumably the small ICE cars that are currently zero rated will also get charged? (No pun intended!)
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I believe so.

I saw the detail, noted that in 2.5 years I'll have to pay the same as a Nissan Micra, thought "fair enough" and forgot the rest :)
 
wyx087 said:
According to this:
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-fleet-news/electric-fleet-news/2022/11/17/autumn-statement-company-car-tax-for-evs-to-increase-by-1#:~:text=Currently%2C BIK for a pure,5% in 2027%2F28

This is VED and will be applied retrospectively to cars from 2017:



Of course tax will happen eventually. But not on charging, not EV-only tax per-mile like many have said.

But retrospectively for VED is a shock. Has VED ever been applied retrospectively?

I suppose it's their way of getting out of the "no tax before 2025" hole their predecessor dug, remembering they'll loose tax income from half of new car sales if it wasn't applied retrospectively.


Must be a pre-2017 car that has really low emission to get this. Post 2017, all non-BEV pays the same tax. I don't think this will change anything for pre-2017 cars. According to that article, pre-2017 EV's still enjoy free VED.
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I don't believe it's truly retrospective. A car that is currently exempt will in future pay a tax.

But it won't have to pay the tax due as the years it didn't

(And yes, I know they pretend it isn't a tax)

ETA: there are many things in this statement which will cost you far more than this.
 
Yes, you are right. It's going to be applied to cars bought before the change-over date. But not paying tax retrospectively between 2017-2025.

But has this ever happened? 2017 change didn't make 2016 £0 low emission cars to pay. The 2001 change didn't require 2000 cars to pay new rates.
 
Only a matter of time - I would assume that the ideal scenario would be to have a form of road pricing and remove all duty on fuel. This way petrol would be a fraction the price it is but you would instead pay x per mile. Although the infrastructure to do that would be a nightmare - having to retro fit something, what about people that dont have it fitted etc... cars from overseas etc,...
 
JonathanRyan said:
ETA: there are many things in this statement which will cost you far more than this.
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But there are also a lot of things he's throwing money at to try and appease the great unwashed.

Minimum wage is "up"
9.7% from April to an hourly rate of £10.42,
Pension credit to rise by 10.1%,
Increases the NHS budget, in each of the next two years, by an extra £3.3bn.
Plus more..
And
Over 600,000 more people on Universal Credit to be forced to meet with a work coach in a bid to get more into the workforce and better-paid jobs.
Good luck with that one :D
 
Cobra said:
But there are also a lot of things he's throwing money at to try and appease the great unwashed.

Minimum wage is "up"
9.7% from April to an hourly rate of £10.42,
Pension credit to rise by 10.1%,
Increases the NHS budget, in each of the next two years, by an extra £3.3bn.
Plus more..
And
Over 600,000 more people on Universal Credit to be forced to meet with a work coach in a bid to get more into the workforce and better-paid jobs.
Good luck with that one :D
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Minimum wage (and by knock on all wages as opposed to salaries) rising whilst income tax limits remain same is one of the more cunning ways of raising more tax whilst looking like you are helping the low paid I've ever seen.


And that work coach thing is presumably a new way of denying benefit :)
 
wyx087 said:
Yes, you are right. It's going to be applied to cars bought before the change-over date. But not paying tax retrospectively between 2017-2025.

But has this ever happened? 2017 change didn't make 2016 £0 low emission cars to pay. The 2001 change didn't require 2000 cars to pay new rates.
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Kinda.

At one point VED was a flat rate then it depended on how much they like your car. Iirc these were brought in somewhat retrospectively. Some cars went from standard to higher rates
 
cambsno said:
Only a matter of time - I would assume that the ideal scenario would be to have a form of road pricing and remove all duty on fuel. This way petrol would be a fraction the price it is but you would instead pay x per mile. Although the infrastructure to do that would be a nightmare - having to retro fit something, what about people that dont have it fitted etc... cars from overseas etc,...
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Exactly. Currently I don't even pay full vat on my fuel. That disparity can't last.
 
The figure I've seen for the EV VED is a tenner a year, so about a 40 mile round trip in the MX-5.
 
Depends when the EV is registered. Pre March 2017 it's band B so £20 a year.
After 2017 it's standard rate so £165 just like any other fossil car. New ones from 2025 get one year at £10 before paying £165 I think.

Vans get stiffed more as they will be paying £290 instead of £0.

Mine will be the £20 a year.

Wouldn't get too smug in the fossil car as fuel duty is getting a walloping hike

View: https://BANNED/jleightonphoto/status/1593255920762781696/photo/1
 
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The full changes are as follow, in the PDF version: (bold for existing cars, not just EV's)

Autumn Statement 2022: documents

This is the Autumn Statement 2022 in full. You can find supporting and related documents below.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
5.34
VED on Electric Vehicles (VED) - From April 2025, electric cars, vans and motorcycles will begin to pay VED in the same way as petrol and diesel vehicles. This will ensure that all road users begin to pay a fair tax contribution as the take up of electric vehicles continues to accelerate. The government will legislate for this measure in Autumn Finance Bill 2022. This means:
• new zero emission cars registered on or after 1 April 2025 will be liable to pay the lowest first year rate of VED (which applies to vehicles with CO2 emissions 1 to 50g/km) currently £10 a year. From the second year of registration onwards, they will move to the standard rate, currently £165 a year
• zero emission cars first registered between 1 April 2017 and 31 March 2025 will also pay the standard rate
• the Expensive Car Supplement exemption for electric vehicles is due to end in 2025. New zero emission cars registered on or after 1 April 2025 will therefore be liable for the expensive car supplement. The Expensive Car Supplement currently applies to cars with a list price exceeding £40,000 for 5 years
• zero and low emission cars first registered between 1 March 2001 and 30 March 2017 currently in Band A will move to the Band B rate, currently £20 a year
• zero emission vans will move to the rate for petrol and diesel light goods vehicles, currently £290 a year for most vans
• zero emission motorcycles and tricycles will move to the rate for the smallest engine size, currently £22 a year
• rates for Alternative Fuel Vehicles and hybrids will also be equalised
 
Yes, the expensive car exemption is possibly more serious. Lots of EVs cost more than 40k.

Mind you, 11p on a litre of fuel. The tax on EVs would have to be mighty high......
 
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Was thinking about fuel duty losses as well and at the moment raising fuel duty to compensate the losses will hurt everyone, even non car owners due to heavy haulage still using diesel. And just how much higher can they really keep going? Also worth remembering that a lot of site plant has to use white diesel now so am even greater impact.

I wonder how they will replicate fuel duty with electric cars without hitting those who don't own one? A duty on electricity in general isn't fair nor has any accurate representation of EV usage for those who do have electric cars.

Would it be a cost per mile? Although I can see this being used against ICE as well whilst also keeping fuel duty in place.
 
Getting rid of VED and fuel duty and levying a cost per mile for both ICE and EV users would be the fairest way of charging for road use. You could argue the rate should reflect the size, weight of vehicle & type of fuel, so that a 40 ton HGV pays more than a small family car because it creates more pollution, & causes greater wear on the roads etc. The rate could be varied depending upon time of day and type of road being used too.

How it would be recorded & billed would be the greatest challenge, installing some form of telemetry device in every road vehicle would take a long time & be expensive & would no doubt have the 'civil liberties' brigade up in arms.....
 
broc said:
Getting rid of VED and fuel duty and levying a cost per mile for both ICE and EV users would be the fairest way of charging for road use.
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... except that, allegedly, between 500,000 and 1,000,000 car drivers don't pay for road tax or insurance - so would contribute even less if fuel taxes were revoked.

I still think that VED for electric cars should reflect their true cost to the treasury in lost fuel taxes.
 
Everyone benefits from working roads and transport so I actually think it should mostly be paid by income tax. Individual vehicle owners then pay VED to keep them registered. Discounts for zero tail pipe emission cars and extra levies on expensive cars as those owners can afford to pay more and they're usually more polluting and use more resources to build as well.
 
I still have massive worries about electric. The stories and videos of lithium production and cobalt mines are nothing short of horrific and I just struggle to see mass electric vehicles with this technology and these practices as a sustainable, environmental or moral way forward.

I don't think we should be off shoring and seemingly ignoring these issues.
 
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I would expect VED to stop distinguishing between vehicle type in the near future. IC vehicles are going to be marginalised in the next few years and exhaust emissions will drop away as electric or something better takes over.
 
I agree it is difficult to tax EV usage using the old liquid fuel method.

There's also things like vehicle-2-home that makes it possible to use EV to remove a battery manufactured for home use. Not forgetting an EV plugged in and grid controlled charging is an asset to the grid (eg. Intelligent Octopus) than a liability that is an EV rapid charging, so tax should reflect that.

FWIW, here's my thoughts on possible additional sources of EV taxation that are easy to implement and sends the right message:

I think 20% or even higher tax on rapid charging makes a lot of sense. It's not meant to be used for majority of EV's source of energy. It puts excess demand on the grid (or require another battery made for buffering).

To counter that, a tax on giant battery is needed. Works the same as expensive car tax: first few years. Something like <40 kWh free; 40-55 kWh band A, 55-70 kWh band B, 70-90 kWh band C, etc. This is to incentivise more efficient cars and reduce environmental damage done by unnecessarily making bigger and bigger batteries.
 
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