How many witnesses have come forward to substantiate the "victim's" stories?
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Jimmy Saville
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How many witnesses have come forward to substantiate the "victim's" stories?
Again regardless of the validity of the claims, aren't any of you worried about the whole idea of presumed guilt and how the accused should be proved innocent. As it stands in law (thankfully) the accused are presumed innocent until the prosecution proves guilt beyond reasonable doubt (for criminal proceedings) and not the other way about. However, it seems no such assumptions or processes are made for trial by media... Worrying times...
StephyB
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Laudrup said:
No, but as a female, wearing a skirt so short people can see what you had for breakfast when you bend screams you're gagging for something... Worse still when worn without undergarments. It's disgusting. Fair enough wear something short if you want to, but make sure you're not flashing the world if you do!!!
No comment on the other mess - innocent until PROVEN guilty and all that.
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StephyB
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Yep. Excuse women from behaving like sluts and dressing like tramps because if they say 'no' you're not allowed to do anything, even if they were saying yes to it all five seconds before.
Having been there TWICE I can say that women have to accept some responsibility. If we wear provocative clothing and utilise flirtatious behaviour to get what we want in part we need to take responsibility for our own actions. We know the risks, so why encourage more of the wrong sort of attention?
Having been there TWICE I can say that women have to accept some responsibility. If we wear provocative clothing and utilise flirtatious behaviour to get what we want in part we need to take responsibility for our own actions. We know the risks, so why encourage more of the wrong sort of attention?
You and Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali would get on swimmingly.
StephyB
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I'm not saying women are to blame. Simply that women should be more aware of what they're wearing. If you wear tiny skirts with minimal or no undergarments what are you saying to the world?
Four words come to mind... "Come and get it"
rape is never ok, but as a female who has BEEN THERE I know my choice in attire triggered the reaction I got. I take responsibility for my part which was knowing wearing clothing that could provoke that reaction and going out of my way to attract that attention.
Yeah my views may be a little archaic but seriously, am I the only one disgusted by what's considered fashion these days? Plus I'm not saying don't ever wear short skirts, I'm saying make sure you keep your privates covered at all times.... What is so bad about that?
Four words come to mind... "Come and get it"
rape is never ok, but as a female who has BEEN THERE I know my choice in attire triggered the reaction I got. I take responsibility for my part which was knowing wearing clothing that could provoke that reaction and going out of my way to attract that attention.
Yeah my views may be a little archaic but seriously, am I the only one disgusted by what's considered fashion these days? Plus I'm not saying don't ever wear short skirts, I'm saying make sure you keep your privates covered at all times.... What is so bad about that?
Keith W
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Garry you spout some right excrement at times but your input in this thread tops the lot
Lets get one thing clear, just as it is illegal now to rape or abuse a child it was illegal back then to rape or abuse a child
How ever you and others try and dress it up there is absolutely no excuse what so ever for this kind of thing, period!
Garry Edwards
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Nobody is trying to excuse it, all that I'm trying to explain is why nothing was done to stop it. That will be obvious if you actually read my posts, rather than trying (and failing) to read my mind.
faddius
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After having a quick flick through the thread, I feel that I have to side with Garry. These things happen with young girls throwing themselves at anyone who can get them closer to their end goal, usually a celebrity of some sort.
Whilst I whole heartedly agree, rape is never ok, it shouldn't happen and no one is ever asking for it. I know people who have been in that situation and I wouldn't wish it upon anyone. However people can get easily misled.
I think back to a festival I worked at as security. At one point, I ended up getting dumped at a side entrance for the main stage with a girl who was drunk. She had a VIP pass, but was not allowed backstage and I was basically told to not let her through.
It started out fairly well, she tried sweet talking me, offering me drink etc. in exchange for me letting her through. I refused and she went off. She then came back about half an hour later, significantly more drunk or under the influence of drugs and her demeanor had completely changed. In essence, she was literally throwing herself at me and not asking for anything in return, though obviously I knew she just wanted to get past the gate to go backstage. She tried everything - everything. Flashing body parts, top up, skirt up. Pants came off and got thrown at me. Very heavy sexual advances of all sorts on me, including trying to undo my belt buckle and zip on more than one occasion, where she had tried sneaking in behind other people and I had grabbed her to guide her back out of the gate. If I had wanted, I imagine I could of done anything with this girl and she would of gone along with it. If anything had happened though, there was a very real chance that when she sobered up / woke up the next morning, she may decide that she didn't actually want to do whatever may have happened and that she could not have given consent due to the state she was in - bang, a very real accusation of rape.
However, nothing happened, I fended off her advances until I got moved elsewhere - where she eventually upset one of the security managers enough to get ejected off site. But it does leave me wondering, what if I had been moved elsewhere during the time she was off getting more drunk? What if someone else had been left looking after the gate who didn't know this girls true intentions? As far as they would see it, is that a very attractive girl was a bit joyous from the highs of the festival and wanted a bit of fun (undoing belt, taking off clothes etc.) for seemingly nothing in return. It would be very easy for them to be misled by this girls advances. What if they had done something with her and it had ended up with the police hauling them out of their tent in the morning?
There were other people trying to get through the gate too, guys offering me drugs / drink / cash. Girls flashing their bits and trying to sweet talk me - but they all paled in comparison the girl I've described above - as they all soon gave up and left after a few refusals and didn't struggle if I collared them trying to sneak in behind other people. They were all pleasant and co operative when they got caught and I didn't mind them trying, there no harm in having a go at least, I'd probably do the same. But I don't know what it was about that one girl, she must have been really desperate to get backstage.
Disgusting behaviour in my opinion, it could of led to all sorts of problems and potentially wrecked someone elses life.
:shake:
Whilst I whole heartedly agree, rape is never ok, it shouldn't happen and no one is ever asking for it. I know people who have been in that situation and I wouldn't wish it upon anyone. However people can get easily misled.
I think back to a festival I worked at as security. At one point, I ended up getting dumped at a side entrance for the main stage with a girl who was drunk. She had a VIP pass, but was not allowed backstage and I was basically told to not let her through.
It started out fairly well, she tried sweet talking me, offering me drink etc. in exchange for me letting her through. I refused and she went off. She then came back about half an hour later, significantly more drunk or under the influence of drugs and her demeanor had completely changed. In essence, she was literally throwing herself at me and not asking for anything in return, though obviously I knew she just wanted to get past the gate to go backstage. She tried everything - everything. Flashing body parts, top up, skirt up. Pants came off and got thrown at me. Very heavy sexual advances of all sorts on me, including trying to undo my belt buckle and zip on more than one occasion, where she had tried sneaking in behind other people and I had grabbed her to guide her back out of the gate. If I had wanted, I imagine I could of done anything with this girl and she would of gone along with it. If anything had happened though, there was a very real chance that when she sobered up / woke up the next morning, she may decide that she didn't actually want to do whatever may have happened and that she could not have given consent due to the state she was in - bang, a very real accusation of rape.
However, nothing happened, I fended off her advances until I got moved elsewhere - where she eventually upset one of the security managers enough to get ejected off site. But it does leave me wondering, what if I had been moved elsewhere during the time she was off getting more drunk? What if someone else had been left looking after the gate who didn't know this girls true intentions? As far as they would see it, is that a very attractive girl was a bit joyous from the highs of the festival and wanted a bit of fun (undoing belt, taking off clothes etc.) for seemingly nothing in return. It would be very easy for them to be misled by this girls advances. What if they had done something with her and it had ended up with the police hauling them out of their tent in the morning?
There were other people trying to get through the gate too, guys offering me drugs / drink / cash. Girls flashing their bits and trying to sweet talk me - but they all paled in comparison the girl I've described above - as they all soon gave up and left after a few refusals and didn't struggle if I collared them trying to sneak in behind other people. They were all pleasant and co operative when they got caught and I didn't mind them trying, there no harm in having a go at least, I'd probably do the same. But I don't know what it was about that one girl, she must have been really desperate to get backstage.
Disgusting behaviour in my opinion, it could of led to all sorts of problems and potentially wrecked someone elses life.
:shake:
boyfalldown
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StephyB said:
And while your views are your own and you are perfectly entitled to them, there was a report yesterday on the Bbc stating one of those abused was an underage, mentally ill girl at Leeds infirmary. If true I'd bet my mortgage she wasn't asking for it in anyway.
These are children we're discussing not women who through their dress sense 'ask for it'. That in itself is an abhorrent idea, even if you're entitled to it, but the relevance to the subject is unclear?
Bernie174
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Strange, but on another thread, the howl of protest was that someone who'd been arrested was named, and therefore gave the impression that they were guilty.
Yet, on here, Saville seems to have been found to be guilty, without any investigation having been completed.
Now, I have no idea if he is, or is not but people should keep in mind that there are those who will make false allegations, just as there are some in positions of 'power' who use that to get sexual favours. Also, it is very unlikely that this will result, as far as Saville is concerned that an investigation will be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt he is guilty, simply because there is no possibility of him giving his side, there is unlikely to be any forensic evidence and it seems there's not much in the way of evidence of early complaint.
I can see the arguments about the way some women dress causes some men to assume they are up for anything, just as I can see the opposing view. I've met women (in the past!) who have been dressed provocatively, it didn't cause me to assume I was going to get some though, but that doesn't mean everyone thinks like me. Nor does it mean that every woman who does dress that way is really a nun on her day off.
So I guess in short, there's 2 sides to everything, in this case you are getting one, and thats all you are going to hear, perhaps some should think about that before assuming that everything they are fed is fact, or indeed, that its fiction!
Yet, on here, Saville seems to have been found to be guilty, without any investigation having been completed.
Now, I have no idea if he is, or is not but people should keep in mind that there are those who will make false allegations, just as there are some in positions of 'power' who use that to get sexual favours. Also, it is very unlikely that this will result, as far as Saville is concerned that an investigation will be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt he is guilty, simply because there is no possibility of him giving his side, there is unlikely to be any forensic evidence and it seems there's not much in the way of evidence of early complaint.
I can see the arguments about the way some women dress causes some men to assume they are up for anything, just as I can see the opposing view. I've met women (in the past!) who have been dressed provocatively, it didn't cause me to assume I was going to get some though, but that doesn't mean everyone thinks like me. Nor does it mean that every woman who does dress that way is really a nun on her day off.
So I guess in short, there's 2 sides to everything, in this case you are getting one, and thats all you are going to hear, perhaps some should think about that before assuming that everything they are fed is fact, or indeed, that its fiction!
gramps
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boyfalldown
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I'm confused by the relevance of this. Ignoring the utter abhorrence as to the idea that someone goes out asking for a sexual assault. This argument specifically talks about women. Not children as the case is here. Theres a big difference. The media reports, if true, suggest he preyed on mentally ill children at hospital. He was also implicated, although never questioned in the Haut de la Garenne children's home abuse scandal. I'm willing to bet no one there was asking for it. Anyway the keyword is children, not women.
The23rdman
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This is exactly what was said in the thread earlier by Lois regarding care of duty. Any responsible adult would spurn such advances.
The23rdman
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I'm sorry, but this is nothing other than your own puritanical ideals. Does every woman on a beach screams come and get it? Even more sunbathing topless? We have such hang-ups in this country about nudity and clothing. Any woman should have the right to wear anything they choose. Yes, certain clothing will provoke a reaction in some men, but it is their responsibility as an adult to look but only touch if expressly asked to.
When the news first broke about Saville, it was confined to molesting young women, and that was when certain female members of the BBC came forward with comments to back up the stories.
However, over the past week, Saville's name has been linked with the abuse of young children, and even suggests that there could be necrophilia with young boys' in a mortuary.
Nobody is attempting to defend the second bit, because it is disgusting and vile.
The first bit however, was commonplace in the sixties, seventies and eighties, and whilst not right then (and would not be tolerated now), you cannot turn the clock back and apply the rules as they stand today to a previous period in time.
I wonder how much of this is true about Saville, and how much is the media "feasting on sensationalism".
If 75% of this is true, then the late Jimmy Saville could have been one of the worst sexual fiends this country has ever known.
Bernie174
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Gramps
My view is that senior police officers should know better than to spout opinion, until an investigations complete.
However, given that todays generation of ACPOo ranks are inexperienced in anything other than keeping out of operation police work, I shouldn't be surprised.
boyfalldown
Firstly, he was originally accused of attacking women who are above the age of consent, and the child allegations have come along later.
Also, I am answering a point and counter points made which are granted not relevant to the newest allegations, but are very much so to the original.
Certainly no one is suggesting that the alleged child victims fall into that category. But what does remain is the fact this is still being investigated and the allegations are just that, unproven allegations subject to investigation. Some may turn out to be warranted, some possibly not. Either way, hanging someone based on opinion, which is all everyone has at the moment is wrong.
My view is that senior police officers should know better than to spout opinion, until an investigations complete.
However, given that todays generation of ACPOo ranks are inexperienced in anything other than keeping out of operation police work, I shouldn't be surprised.
boyfalldown
Firstly, he was originally accused of attacking women who are above the age of consent, and the child allegations have come along later.
Also, I am answering a point and counter points made which are granted not relevant to the newest allegations, but are very much so to the original.
Certainly no one is suggesting that the alleged child victims fall into that category. But what does remain is the fact this is still being investigated and the allegations are just that, unproven allegations subject to investigation. Some may turn out to be warranted, some possibly not. Either way, hanging someone based on opinion, which is all everyone has at the moment is wrong.
Thanks Steph, I agree with that.
In an earlier post I recounted something which actually happened when I was working in the eighties, and someone dismissed it as "rumour".
The girl in question was 16 and went way beyond what could be classed as "flirting". One of her little "games" was to come into the office when the boss was out, sit on a desk (with her short skirt on, sometimes minus her knickers), and then tell everyone what she had been up to at the weekend, whilst constantly shifting her position - it was far more explicit than Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct.
I dread to think what she was like on a night out with her mates, on the prowl.
And that is probably what happened with Jimmy Saville and any number of other "celebrities" at the time. There were endless occasions, where hordes of young girls were clammering to get there mitts on them (God knows why, because Saville was an ugly, creepy *******).
The young girls - groupies - many of them wanted this attention from the stars of the day, and would stalk these people on a regular basis.
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andy - as regards groupies , certainly - but the cases under discussion arent groupies, they are vulnerable young girls in childrens homes, and/or disabled in care homes- they didnt say' come and get it big boy' - he probably forced them against their will , knowng no one would take their word against his
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Also its the adults responsibility not to act even if expressly asked , because a child isnt emotionally mature enough to give consent
boyfalldown
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Your own wording is 'attacking'. No one asks for that. Regardless of dress or them being a groupie
You'll notice I was also very balanced in my comments. 'The news reports, if true', 'implicated although never questioned', etc etc. I think that mean I understand what you're saying about allegations, don't you?
Sonriendo
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Byker28i
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At the moment, possibly the same as when the police arrested Christopher Jefferies (Joanna Yates Landlord) and issued statements about him, or perhaps the initial reports about Charles de Menezes about how he wore a huge puffed jacket, ran from police, both of which proved embarressing for the police when it was found they'd briefed the media incorrectly (or lied).
At the moment these are allegations and investigations are ongoing. Until it's proven I'd hope our police were impartial.
Anyone see newsnight last night. That just enforced my opinion that all of this has come out as the Leveson inquiry is preparing it's report, plus as an embarrassment for the BBC, who have been seen as anti News International.
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Byker28i said:
The police didn't issue any quotes about the Yates landlord, he was legitimately arrested based on inconsistencies and a statement by someone else who it turns out, made it all up. It was the press who demonised him, and were ultimately sued.
De Menzes is a completely different kettle of fish and not worth bringing into this discussion.
StephyB
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My behaviour and attire at the time did ask for it. I now know better. It was me thinking of my own behaviour that drew me to that conclusion, particularly reinforced by it not happening since altering my attire a little and my behaviour a lot. I'm in no way saying what they did was right, merely that I played my part in the incident. Simples.
As to comparing sunbathing or wearing a bikini on a beach, there is a time and place for that - ie when it's hot and you're at the beach... Again, simples.
As to comparing sunbathing or wearing a bikini on a beach, there is a time and place for that - ie when it's hot and you're at the beach... Again, simples.
StephyB
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Sonriendo said:I suggest you look for a new counselor or therapist
It's been years since I've had the need for one - and it was me thinking about what happened that made me realise.
Just to put this very clearly: I was SEEKING that attention. It went further than I gave permission for, but I sought it.
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Sonriendo
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Sorry, but if you have been raped twice and you think it was your fault because of your choice of dress - something is not right.
DemiLion
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I'm seriously tempted to pass this on to our legal department as a straight forward case of blanket defamation by an embittered ex junior officer.
pepi1967
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That's the most ridiculous statement I've read on the thread thus far. Just because you went out looking for attention and let's be fare most girls who wear club clothes go out looking for attention does not mean any man has a right to make you do anything you don't want to do. If you REALLY believe your rape was in anyway your fault you really do need to start therapy again. You have a god given right to say no. What your wearing has nothing to do with it.
StephyB
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Sonriendo said:
I know it is not entirely my fault, I have said a few times that it was not only my dress but my behaviour that helped to cause it. Yes the rapists is at fault and that is his cross to bear in each case, but I've taken responsibility for my part - and I DID have my part.
gramps
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Indeed, my comment was in relation to:
My point being that it wasn't just on here that such comments have been made ... the police, the NSPCC, the hospitals, hospital staff, the headstone, the charities, changing the name of a hall in Leeds etc, etc - all indicating guilt in advance of any enquiry/conclusion.
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