Inmates lose right to vote

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Reidy36

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Finally, somebody has got a backbone and gone against the pink and fluffy laws of the European court.
As far as I am concerned (and this is my opinion). When you have committed a crime, you should be entitled to basic human rights, you have broken the law.
Need to take away the tv, xbox, etc and make it a punishment got them when inside.
Anyway, no doubt going to get dot down in flames here.
 
Reidy36 said:
Finally, somebody has got a backbone and gone against the pink and fluffy laws of the European court.
As far as I am concerned (and this is my opinion). When you have committed a crime, you should be entitled to basic human rights, you have broken the law.
Need to take away the tv, xbox, etc and make it a punishment got them when inside.
Anyway, no doubt going to get dot down in flames here.
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Not by me. 100% agree. Prison should be about punishment first, rehab secondary and not really fun at any time. We've been dictated to for too long by the pinko, leftie, hippy, PC, HR lot. 'Bout time this country grew a pair and stood up for ourselves.
 
100% agree here too, prison should be something to dread not a cosy life :thumbs:
 
Watched a program on telly the other night.. CLINK? The restraunt in the prison staffed by prisoners getting NVQs ... One prisoner said he likes it in prison and prefers to be in .. Another said he realy wants to be deformed ...( pretty sure he meant reformed but then repeated how he wants to be deformed when he leaves haha)

Apart from working in a restraunt.. earning 17 quid a week and gaining qualifications and hellp to be rehoused and help with job when they come out.. every room (not calling it a cell) had colur tv

my point being.. I ahve been down on my luck in a past life... nobody helped me the way these people are being helped.. it might not sound much to most people now.. but there are honest people with less than they are getting and a lot less help than they are getting..

Crime pays in different ways :(
 
KIPAX said:
Watched a program on telly the other night.. CLINK? The restraunt in the prison staffed by prisoners getting NVQs ... One prisoner said he likes it in prison and prefers to be in .. Another said he realy wants to be deformed ...( pretty sure he meant reformed but then repeated how he wants to be deformed when he leaves haha)

Apart from working in a restraunt.. earning 17 quid a week and gaining qualifications and hellp to be rehoused and help with job when they come out.. every room (not calling it a cell) had colur tv

my point being.. I ahve been down on my luck in a past life... nobody helped me the way these people are being helped.. it might not sound much to most people now.. but there are honest people with less than they are getting and a lot less help than they are getting..

Crime pays in different ways :(
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I believe thats swansea prison. Havent been to the restaurant myself, not sure i'd trust them not to add "special" ingredients of their own.
Many homeless people have in the past committed a minor crime so that they get a warm place to sleep and 3 meals a day.
When you have access to as much as prisoners do these days its a holiday camp not a punishment. They should have a room with a bed and a bog, thats it IMHO.
 
100% agreement here too. They shouldn't be allowed any privileges, they should lose those for the whole term of imprisonment.
 
panther_87k said:
I believe thats swansea prison. Havent been to the restaurant myself, not sure i'd trust them not to add "special" ingredients of their own.
Many homeless people have in the past committed a minor crime so that they get a warm place to sleep and 3 meals a day.
When you have access to as much as prisoners do these days its a holiday camp not a punishment. They should have a room with a bed and a bog, thats it IMHO.
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AFAIK they have since opened more restraunts around the country..inc swansea... all the prisoners they introduced where in for yrs as apposed to months... naughty people.. so its spread now and more prisoners all over have access to this scheme..

One lad worked in the restraunt for a couple of months.. a london chef came in to help out one day.. told him to come for a trial and poss gave him a job... you dont get opportunities like that flaling out of the sky when your on the outside.. the prison staff instigated this and took him for his trial before he was released... nice eh :(
 
Yeah! Throw away the Key! These scrounging scum shouldn't have TV. Or food, probably - lots of them are old; they'll be dead soon anyway, so why waste it? In fact, why not just save loads of time and money and simply hang them?

Or possibly some stories have two sides?

(BTW: I don't think inmates should have the vote. But I don't think quite a high number of inmates should be inmates).




Edit to add: Just to save confusion, the original story I linked to was this one, which originates in Eire, but I thought the other may be more apposite for a UK audience. I think that's the one BRASH is pouring the milk of human kindness all over.

OK, carry on...
 
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So, 30 days and 12 days, which'll commute to 15 days and 6 days. Big deal. The law applies to them the same as everybody else, with or without disabilities. He knew he was breaking the law by doing what he did and has admitted it. I have no sympathy.

I have a life threatening coronary condition and if I never paid my TV license would I expect to get away with it. Would I f***. I pay mine and they should have paid theirs or done away with their TV. Simple.
 
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Wouldn't it be quicker, cheaper, easier, and more humane simply to take their TV away and sell it to pay the arrears? Keeping someone in prison costs more per day than a TV licence costs per annum. Plus court costs. Also, while in prison, people are unable to earn, so will not be very likely able to raise the arrears. And they'll probably find themselves sacked, so when they come out, will be straight on to benefits.

Can you explain the economies of this?
 
jon ryan said:
Wouldn't it be quicker, cheaper, easier, and more humane simply to take their TV away and sell it to pay the arrears? Keeping someone in prison costs more per day than a TV licence costs per annum. Plus court costs. Also, while in prison, people are unable to earn, so will not be very likely able to raise the arrears. And they'll probably find themselves sacked, so when they come out, will be straight on to benefits.

Can you explain the economies of this?
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That's no argument because you'd never lock anybody up because it's too expensive. Economics of the Judicial system don't work that way. Yeh I'd sell there telly and I'd also take the remainder of what they are due, out of their Benefits too. That's an option. No crime is victimless.

As I said I have no sympathy for them and to be honest don't care neither.
 
Awww! You soft hearted old thing!


OK, Can you suggest how society benefits from spending pretty massive sums of money in prosecuting and jailing old people for not have enough money to pay fines imposed for not having a TV licence?
 
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Prisoners in the UK have not lost the right to vote as they never had it in the first place.
Under EU rules the UK can still withhold the right but not as a blanket denial. For example they could allow prisoners in for less than a year the vote while still refusing all others.
Personally I do not think that they should have that right.
However I also agree with jon ryan that many should not be in prison while others should.
There was an article recently about someone who got just under £55000 benefits fraudulently over 10 years, as well as having to pay it all back he got 10 months inside. Over 11000 people with secret Swiss bank accounts got caught and were allowed to pay the tax man an average of just over 54000 each and were given anonymity and freedom from prosecution :shrug:
 
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You can't decide on a prison sentance depending on cost..

You can decide on a prison sentance depending on the crime

You can't let people off if disabled. critically il. served in the armed forces... doesnt matter.. do wrong get prison..its not rocket science and the sooner everyone understands crime = punishment then we can move on..
 
Crooks not being able to vote for even bigger crooks, oh the irony. :p

The punishment of being sent to jail is the loss of freedom, no more.
 
Reidy36 said:
Finally, somebody has got a backbone and gone against the pink and fluffy laws of the European court.
As far as I am concerned (and this is my opinion). When you have committed a crime, you should be entitled to basic human rights, you have broken the law.
Need to take away the tv, xbox, etc and make it a punishment got them when inside.
Anyway, no doubt going to get dot down in flames here.
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100% agree ...if you do the crime then do the time ..hard labour NOT a cushy life
 
Wow I actually agree. Committed sandal wearing socialist here and yet I believe you should lose your civil rights if you are sent to prison.

Human rights no. I don't consider the right to vote as a human right though. So this is ok by me.
 
KIPAX said:
One prisoner said he likes it in prison and prefers to be in .....but there are honest people with less than they are getting and a lot less help than they are getting..(
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I do feel the system helps those who fail to help themselves whilst it seems to punish those who try to make the effort.

nilagin said:
100% agreement here too. They shouldn't be allowed any privileges, they should lose those for the whole term of imprisonment.
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+1. IMO in prison, you get access to minimal human rights - food, water, shelter. Prison should be something to dread, not an attraction. I'd even go so far as to make the food bland (but nutritious - you don't want to create further health problems).
 
omens said:
I do feel the system helps those who fail to help themselves whilst it seems to punish those who try to make the effort.


................................ I'd even go so far as to make the food bland (but nutritious - you don't want to create further health problems).
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Porridge:D
 
More than 70% of the prison population has two or more mental health disorders. (Social Exclusion Unit, 2004, quoting Psychiatric Morbidity Among Prisoners In England And Wales, 1998).

Yeah! Let's get after the mentally ill, and put them in jail for being...mentally ill.

Care in the Community. That worked, didn't it?
 
omens said:
I know but I tried to avoid typing it!

Whenever someone mentions porridge in the context of prison, I think of Fletcher.
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Norman Stanley. Class!! The end:thumbs:
 
More than 70% of the prison population has two or more mental health disorders.
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Mmm..Ok, only one person I put inside had a mental illness, and that was on remand as a way of getting him treated. Thats way over 100, against 1...so less than 1%.

Perhaps 70% suffer from mental illness, but I doubt that most had that when they committed their crime. Anyway, it's not difficult to fake depression. As the survey wasn't based on full diagnosis, just on prisoners being treated, its a bit of a suspect conclusion in my opinion.

Anyway, moving on.....Prisoners never had a right to vote. Most prisons do not have a colour TV in every cell, and in some Cat A prisons they spend 23 hours a day banged up. Not that I think thats a bad thing, just wouldn't want some of you to embarrass yourselves by repeating the Daily Mail's unresearched headlines.
 
OK, after the suggestions of hanging them, starving them, throwing away the key and leaving them to rot (for parking on a double yellow obviously)... a serious question...

As pointed out in post 17

"The punishment of being sent to jail is the loss of freedom, no more."

Why then should it become the loss of being able to think for oneself and subsequently act upon those thoughts by voting in an election?

And before you all have a go at me, it is a serious question, I don't believe it's right that anyone sentenced basically only serves half the time they're sentenced to, and quite honestly sometimes I too feel that some of them should be shot! But that's not the issue.

Currently they don't have the right to vote, but just why shouldn't prisoners be allowed to vote?
 
Surely part of the loss of freedom is the inability to do those things which free members of society are able to do?

Otherwise why stop at voting? Why not have a nightclub and a bar in a prison? Why not give them axes or chainsaws to practise tree chopping?

For me, loss of freedom is more than just the loss of ability to move around in the world.
 
Well I think your first sentence answers it all. And I agree with it fully. They have total loss of freedom. That is all they have been sentenced to.

As to your idea of giving them chainsaws, perhaps that's going too far?
 
The title of this thread is misleading as prisoners have never had a right to vote under English law.


Steve.
 
Bill Roberts said:
Well I think your first sentence answers it all. And I agree with it fully. They have total loss of freedom. That is all they have been sentenced to.

As to your idea of giving them chainsaws, perhaps that's going too far?
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I guess that is the point though isn't it, how do you define 'loss of freedom'? Obviously basic human needs must be met, food, shelter, warmth [albeit that there are people who did nothing wrong around the world that don't always have those things, but we would all wish them to have them] but beyond that it is very much down to how you define what freedom actually means in order to define what should happen when it is taken away due to committing a crime. Thats is where we all differ, on what that definition is, but it seems as a nation, many disagree with what the European Court think it is.

Tough call imo, needs to be a a mix of punishment and rehabilitation, but the problem is that the line between those two can be very different prisoner to prisoner. Should they be allowed the vote.... imo, no, work on your rehab and earn the right back again, but that is just my opinion, others will difffer ;)
 
I don't disagree YV, and it is a tough call. I just wanted to open it up into a proper debate rather than a "let's just throw the key away" thread.

Much more interesting.
 
Indeed - I guess the really interesting debate here is what people think of when they think about 'freedom'? Afterall, none of us are totally free to do as we wish, if we were, there would be no such thing as crime anyway as any action would be allowed. So, what is freedom exactly? :naughty:

Discuss.... ;)
 
KIPAX said:
...the sooner everyone understands crime = punishment then we can move on..
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The sooner everyone understands punishment does not result in fewer crimes, or in any benefit to society, the sooner we can move on and progress towards a civilised society.

Bill Roberts said:
Currently they don't have the right to vote, but just why shouldn't prisoners be allowed to vote?
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They probably should be allowed to vote (and far, far fewer of them should be in prison in the first place, as already mentioned). I can't see a decent argument against prisoners being allowed to vote. After-all, how is further alienating someone from society, supposed to help them become a useful part of that society?

omens said:
Otherwise why stop at voting? Why not have a nightclub and a bar in a prison? Why not give them axes or chainsaws to practise tree chopping?
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Yes, because going out on the lash, and having a voice in your society are comparable. :bonk:
 
I want to see Prison to be viewed as a true deterrent...I want to see it not as a pleasant place..though how much of that image actually comes from sensationalist journalism I'm not sure as I have never and have no desire to ever be confined in such a style...I'd like to see the capacity of prisons within the country increased so as to allow less use of community sentencing, why should the communities still have to cope with criminals even after they have been found guilty, this capacity increase will also mean that release half way though sentence no longer is the norm but that right has to be earned through good behaviour, through participation in training and rehabilitation...

Finally I'd like to see a return to a time when more secure institutions are available for those of mental instability can be cared for away from the general populous, this is not a desire to return to the dark days of straight jackets and rubber hoses, people sedated to the point of comatose state...but where people that do suffer diagnosable conditions that pose a danger to either themselves or others are kept secure...I'm not suggesting I have sufficient intelligence to design such systems and organisations and there remit of operation but there are those out there that do have such abilities

Yv said:
Indeed - I guess the really interesting debate here is what people think of when they think about 'freedom'? Afterall, none of us are totally free to do as we wish, if we were, there would be no such thing as crime anyway as any action would be allowed. So, what is freedom exactly? :naughty:

Discuss.... ;)
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If we were truly free, I'd be able to extract the pass code and location for the great TP cake cupboard out of the snaky one by waterboarding...
 
If I was in prison for a decent amount of time, I don't think I would really care if I could vote or not.


Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
If I was in prison for a decent amount of time, I don't think I would really care if I could vote or not.


Steve.
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Maybe that's part of the problem, and I'd probably be the same. But perhaps alienating the inmates so much that they don't feel part of society doesn't help much when they eventually get out.
 
I don't think that someone who has broken the laws of the land and serving a custodial sentence be given the right to have a say in who runs the country.
All it takes is some do gooder politician to do the vote for me, sentence will be cut and you can see where alot of votes will go, especially if another one takes a firm stance on criminals.
 
Reidy36 said:
I don't think that someone who has broken the laws of the land and serving a custodial sentence be given the right to have a say in who runs the country.
All it takes is some do gooder politician to do the vote for me, sentence will be cut and you can see where alot of votes will go, especially if another one takes a firm stance on criminals.
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Whereas all it takes now, is for some do-gooder politician to do the vote for me, I'll lock up people you don't like and you can see where a lot of the votes will go. Or the old, these people are going to vote for my opponent, perhaps I can take away their right to vote.

Wait, that all already happens.
 
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