Improving the TP sharing forums

Marcel

Marcel

Kim Jong Bod
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Marcel
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I've created this new thread as I believe the previous one raises some very valid points.....things that we have been saying for a while, and things that have cropped up a few times in the past. It also put forward some good ideas (which we are relaying and thrashing out in the staff room). Same goes for the PM's and Messages we have received....thanks :)

So, here goes......
Ideally what we need to discourage is what I call NSS (Nice Shot Syndrome) where people will post that regardless without any thought to A: What the OP wants out of the thread and B: What they actually think of the photo.
We also need to discuss the practise of throwing 6 shots up and just adding the cursory "C&C please" at the end of it, without any thought to A: What they want, and B: What C&C actually means and C: What they're going to think when they get some *honest* C&C.
We also need to address how a member responds to critique given. Responding to negative (albeit constructive) critique on the defensive with excuses of 'It's not my best' or 'I haven't finished it yet' etc etc just waste peoples time IMO.

So IMO we need to :
* Increase the thought and effort behind the images being posted up, and encourage the OP to add their thoughts to the *first* post, explaining their thinking behind the shot.
* Discourage overly rude responses.
* Discourage an abundance of "Nice Shot" syndrome (when sometimes it is evident there are errors and problems) All the while encouraging people to post, even if "Nice shot" is all they can think of.
* Encourage more thought behind the replies.


So how do we do it?
There are a number of options available for us to try (or a combination of....)

* Remove the sharing forums from the front page
* Restructure the sharing forums completely
* Introduce a new member-selectable profile field, showing their level of competency (Beginner, etc)
* Introduce thread prefixes in the sharing forums, indicating the level of critique they require for that thread.
* Educate those who don't respond well to justified, polite but negative critique
* Educate those who post rudely
* Encourage those who respond fleetingly, to give more thought to their answers



I'll think of more, but I've been up since 6 and I need a brew :)

Feel free to put forward more ideas. We're here to give you lot the forum you want. What worked for us when we had 500 members might not work now, so I can say as Admin we're willing to adapt and change as necessary to suit the forum.

Just because we have 25,000 members now doesn't mean we can't still be the good forum we have always strived to be. It doesn't mean we have to settle for a lack of replies to threads, or poorly thought out posts. We can change it for the better.
Let's keep this forum the best photography forum out there. After all, we're here to enjoy, learn, improve and talk about our photography.
 
Marcel said:
* Introduce a new member-selectable profile field, showing their level of competency (Beginner, etc)
* Introduce thread prefixes in the sharing forums, indicating the level of critique they require for that thread.
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I've only just been brave enough to post my first "C & C please" photo and both of these things would have been brilliant and made it alot more approachable.

In terms of NSS, whilst not be competent to give technical critique I would like to be able to comment on a shot that someone has taken that I find inspiring (ie I would lke to have taken) or to say what is appealing about it to me if they would like my opinion.
 
This sounds good to me. Sometimes I look at a thread where someone has posted an image and there are 10 "good picture" responses and I think "EH?" am I missing something.....
 
These are merely ideas at the moment being thrashed about and put forward :)
 
I agree, something does need to improve and a few of your suggestions may work well.

I've been very put off by using it as I've found I've not received anywhere near the amount of comments/critiques/opinions on my own images that I have given on others. That may be down to me not really being part of the community as I don't really "know" anyone on the forum - perhaps people who know each other only tend to comment on each others as a part of a clique kind of thing? I'm not sure.

I tend to take a lack of response as "that's nothing special" or "that's boring/rubbish" which if that really is the case then obviously some feedback would benefit.
 
I don't envy the task to be honest, Marcel. How can we stop lots of "Great picture" responses? Sometimes a picture is exceptional and all it requires is a few words to pay homage to the tog so making sure that the post length is over a certain number of characters isn't going to work necessarily. I'll watch with interest.
 
Marcel said:
* Introduce a new member-selectable profile field, showing their level of competency (Beginner, etc)
Click to expand...

This is a great idea :thumbs:

EDIT: pressed post too quickly!

As a beginner, I welcome all kinds of criticism as long as it comes with useful advice. I want to learn and I know there are some very skilled members on this forum.

"Great shot" means A LOT to a beginner when coming from someone with experience. Please people, don't stop that practise.
 
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Lose the in depth crit sub
Make all the sharing subs crit only and ban "nice shots" from them, but apply some minimum crit guidelines.
"Nice shots" can go in fluffy kittens.

It sounds like a recipe for no crit at all, but sometimes you have to take a step backwards to move forwards.


Does nobody think that the title of the previous thread was exactly what the problem is.
Buy camera > open Flickr account > find TP and transpose Flickr methods of bum rubbing because they don't know any different..:shrug:
 
Definitely reduce the number of images that can be posted - I'm a bit threaders with seeeing six images posted then another post immediately after by the OP with another 6 images...

Please: two or three of the top-tier images from your set and put the remainder on Flickr (other image-hosting websites are available)...

Unless you're including 'before and after' examples of the same image to show P&P...

Other than that I pretty much concur with all the points raised at the top...
esp the 'Comptency' caveat.
Beginner; Experienced Hobbyist; Pro etc. (actually this could be quite difficult to quantify and monitor, but that's a headache for another day - remember everyone thinks they're an above-average motorist).

*edit* and I agree with John - lose the 'In-Depth' Crit section - it's like the Marie-Celeste in there with the majority too scared to post and the ones that do post have invariably not read the T&Cs...
 
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joxby said:
Lose the in depth crit sub
Make all the sharing subs crit only and ban "nice shots" from them, but apply some minimum crit guidelines.
"Nice shots" can go in fluffy kittens.

It sounds like a recipe for no crit at all, but sometimes you have to take a step backwards to move forwards.


Does nobody think that the title of the previous thread was exactly what the problem is.
Buy camera > open Flickr account > find TP and transpose Flickr methods of bum rubbing because they don't know any different..:shrug:
Click to expand...

Yes I feel the indepth crit section a little strange as all the sections SHOULD be proper critique

We definitely need to keep the fluffy kittens section for those shots that you want to share but don't want critiquing :thumbs:

We need to make it absolutely clear to people that "IF YOU POST AN IMAGE YOU SHOULD EXPECT POS AND NEG CRITIQUE SO IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR 'Sorry it's all wrong because......' THEN DON'T POST IT"..........

Can we make this pop up when someone starts a thread in the relevant section with a "tick that you have read this" bit?
 
Arkady said:
esp the 'Comptency' caveat.
Beginner; Experienced Hobbyist; Pro etc. (actually this could be quite difficult to quantify and monitor, but that's a headache for another day - remember everyone thinks they're an above-average motorist).
Click to expand...

This is difficult......

Do we select this for EACH thread we start or across the board???

I would consider myself an absolute beginner at sport/motor sport.

I would consider myself a beginner at other sections and experienced at certain other stuff.

Oh and technically a professional with certain other genres....

I vote for a PER THREAD selection......
 
Arkady said:
Beginner; Experienced Hobbyist; Pro etc. (actually this could be quite difficult to quantify and monitor, but that's a headache for another day - remember everyone thinks they're an above-average motorist).
Click to expand...

I think those three examples are sufficient to be honest. If someone declares themself as a pro, they should be in it for the cash (E.g. have a business or sell regular photos) and expect harsh crit if the pic is not up to spec - Beginners are just that and should be approached in such a way (given simple advice, pointed in the right direction etc.) and the Experienced hobbyist should expect a more detailed crit than a beginner.

Does the Forum software allow for such a title to be added by the user? Perhaps with the icons at the bottom of the avatar?
 
Actually, Darren raises a valid point.
I'm a novice at motorsport but highly experienced at PR and news...
Maybe just declare your own comptency at the time of posting


'My first motorsport pix'; 'My First riot'; My first studio/portrait/nude/glamour'; 'My First war'...


...and while we're at it can we please limit the number of wedding photos we're seeing - some of them are utterly brilliant, but again, two or three top-tier shots and a link please...
The latest one has 29 images!
 
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-halli- said:
This is a great idea :thumbs:
As a beginner, I welcome all kinds of criticism as long as it comes with useful advice..
Click to expand...

:agree:...and if my "Edit" button is ticked, it would be very useful if the editor said what pp technique or steps they used to improve my shot, rather than " I just messed with ......" then I learn

if we submit an image for C&C - why not just one at a time..?
 
I definitely think a sort of level would be good, people can always adjust it as they think.

Although in a way you could almost do with a level for each section - experience doing portraits or landscapes I'm thinking would be very different from trying to get great bird pictures! Edit: See this point has already been made!

Maybe a sort of template for people to post with?

Something like


Level of expertise in this area:
Overall level of expertise:
Responses wanted (1 being Fluffy kitten - 5 being full Critique):


Perhaps?
 
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Yardbent said:
if we submit an image for C&C - why not just one at a time..?
Click to expand...

My personal opinion is that the 6 images limit IS about right. Thinking about my recent shoots where I have posted and been looking for critique I have posted more than one image on most of them. Telling people NOT to post 15 is a good idea though :gag:
 
Have to agree about a restriction on the number of images... if I visit a thread then have to start scrolling and there's any more than about 4 images I just bug out to another thread, no matter how good they are...
 
Can we add 'Nice shot' to the swear filter? Or a minimum character count of say 15 characters (excluding quotes) for a reply before it can be submitted? I dunno..
 
Marcel said:
* Introduce a new member-selectable profile field, showing their level of competency (Beginner, etc)
Click to expand...
Not that I'm pointing any fingers you understand, but given the amount of posts that pop up from people who've had a camera a couple of months and now decide to "go pro", and the debates that inevitably follow, I'm not sure that this would be a good idea.

How many of these newcomers that are considering charging for their "services" are actually going to be honest when selecting their level of ability?

On the other hand, how many serious professionals (the ones that have been doing this for 20-30 years, and know they still have a lot to learn) are going to be so egotistical to give themselves the "know it all" rank? (or whatever politically correct term might be used in its place).
 
What or how would you classs oneself as either beginner, novice, intermediate, etc etc - would that be along the lines of how long you have been doing that type of subject or with how many posts (with pictures) you've made in that particular subject.. :shrug:

Just that I like to do either macro, birds/wildlife & general - but no good at sports, nude/glamour..
 
Kaouthia said:
Not that I'm pointing any fingers you understand, but given the amount of posts that pop up from people who've had a camera a couple of months and now decide to "go pro", and the debates that inevitably follow, I'm not sure that this would be a good idea. How many of these newcomers that are considering charging for their "services" are actually going to be honest when selecting their level of ability?
Click to expand...

Then these are the people who will receive the most negative criticism with advice as to how to improve the shot. If the shot is pro, then criticism will be positive with opinions as to why it is a "great shot"



Kaouthia said:
On the other hand, how many serious professionals (the ones that have been doing this for 20-30 years, and know they still have a lot to learn) are going to be so egotistical to give themselves the "know it all" rank? (or whatever politically correct term might be used in its place).
Click to expand...

Well like I said above, Pro should really mean you get a regular income from it, not that you are a "know it all". That's how I'd understand the term.
 
Even if we forget the different genres of photography, people will always think they're more experienced than they are, simply because they don't know the things they haven't learned yet.

Every year I know I've learned new things and am better at what I do than I was the previous year, but each year I've also thought I've not sucked all that much, and laugh at how dumb I was the year before. :)
 
-halli- said:
Then these are the people who will receive the most negative criticism with advice as to how to improve the shot. If the shot is pro, then criticism will be positive with opinions as to why it is a "great shot"
Click to expand...
Yes, but it would also mislead newer photographers when they receive so-called crit from "Professionals" that are anything but.

-halli- said:
Well like I said above, Pro should really mean you get a regular income from it, not that you are a "know it all". That's how I'd understand the term.
Click to expand...
Making a regular income from something doesn't mean that you're any good at it. Somebody who shoots keyrings in nightclubs with a bridge camera that's pre-set by the company they work for could technically call themselves a "professional photographer" in the sense that it's their primary source of income, but throw a proper SLR in their hands and they could be completely lost.
 
I like the idea of deleting the 'In-Depth Critique' forum. It's hardly used. It would then hopefully stop forum users thinking they can only give/get c&c in there. It's also a quick and easy one to do.

I like the idea of limiting the number of photos per thread to 6 with the remainder to be linked to another website e.g. Flickr. It should not be cut back further as one of the challenges is to reinvigorate photo posting and c&c and having a limit lower than this would be counter-productive.

There should also be a limit of 1 thread per person per event to stop people creating 2 threads to get past the 6 photos per thread limit.

Do not stop the 'nice shot' type posts. We should be encouraging people to leave feedback in whatever form they are comfortable in doing as not enough are doing it now. The challenge is in too parts: Initially to get more feedback (which is severely lacking at the moment) and then when this has improved to work on improving the quality of feedback. However, we should never be discouraging or limiting a members ability to comment on a photo - that too is counter-productive.

I don't think there is any value in classifying photographers by ability - I can see this idea creating some ego problems amongst some members and could create more divides or cliques. I can also imagine more arguments about why people have classified themselves the way that they have and even more pointless threads then discussing it.

Will think of more and post more later :)
 
Kaouthia said:
Yes, but it would also mislead newer photographers when they receive so-called crit from "Professionals" that are anything but.


Making a regular income from something doesn't mean that you're any good at it. Somebody who shoots keyrings in nightclubs with a bridge camera that's pre-set by the company they work for could technically call themselves a "professional photographer" in the sense that it's their primary source of income, but throw a proper SLR in their hands and they could be completely lost.
Click to expand...




Maybe the "tag" should just apply to to thread starter then if there's any way to do that - anyway as is often said you don't need to be an experienced photographer to know a good photo when you see it.
 
Defiance said:
I like the idea of deleting the 'In-Depth Critique' forum. It's hardly used. It would then hopefully stop forum users thinking they can only give/get c&c in there. It's also a quick and easy one to do.

I like the idea of limiting the number of photos per thread to 6 with the remainder to be linked to another website e.g. Flickr. It should not be cut back further as one of the challenges is to reinvigorate photo posting and c&c and having a limit lower than this would be counter-productive.

There should also be a limit of 1 thread per person per event to stop people creating 2 threads to get past the 6 photos per thread limit.

Do not stop the 'nice shot' type posts. We should be encouraging people to leave feedback in whatever form they are comfortable in doing as not enough are doing it now. The challenge is in too parts: Initially to get more feedback (which is severely lacking at the moment) and then when this has improved to work on improving the quality of feedback. However, we should never be discouraging or limiting a members ability to comment on a photo - that too is counter-productive.

I don't think there is any value in classifying photographers by ability - I can see this idea creating some ego problems amongst some members and could create more divides or cliques. I can also imagine more arguments about why people have classified themselves the way that they have and even more pointless threads then discussing it.

Will think of more and post more later :)
Click to expand...

I agree - if something is hardly used and people prefer to get and give criticism regardless of the category/forum it's posted in, then removing that should be a no-brainer.

I can only speak for myself, but if 'nice shot.. I really like X' were not allowed/severely limited, I might well choose to not reply at all to a posting of pictures, as I often have no experience with the genre of the photographs, but do like what I see.

Ofcourse I could elaborate on why I like it, trying to put into words the feelings and emotions the image evokes.
I could do this for dislikes as well, but since I do not have a lot of experience, I would probably give a very personal reason for not liking it and not necessarily providing useful criticism, as what I like might not be considered 'a good photograph'.

But then, who is to say what is good or bad? Are there rules/guidelines pictures 'should' adhere to for them to be considered good? And if they break said rules/guidelines, they are bad and should be improved upon? I have trouble seeing photography as such a.. rigid artform.

Hm. I seem to be babbling now, so I will stop for now as well.

Oh, wait. There is one more thing. After reading the closed thread when it was still open, I became increasingly sad and worried about this community. It felt as if a group of people who had been around since the beginning was trying to recapture/recreate the community, re-shape it to be something from the past. I am not sure if that was really the case, but it did feel like it. Memories are often better than actual events and I fear that if too much is altered about the way things are now, a large part of the community will be lost in the process.

Not all doom and gloom though - in order for something to improve, there needs to be change. I'd just like to caution against too much change at once, but as long as things are thought through well enough, I think it will turn out for the better.

Right. That's it for now. Thank you for reading these rantings.
 
I personally, don't think there is much wrong with TP, you get out of it what you put in. With 25000 members and probably 10000 active posters you are bound to have fractious moments and fall outs, that is what an eclectic bunch of people do and are.

If there is to be change, then so be it.
 
littlemonster said:
Maybe the "tag" should just apply to to thread starter then if there's any way to do that - anyway as is often said you don't need to be an experienced photographer to know a good photo when you see it.
Click to expand...

That's how I imagined it, but I don't know how the forum software works.

Maybe putting it in the message in the form of a template as suggested in an earlier reply is the way forward?
 
Good call guys. If you don`t mind, I shall stew on it for a while and try to post my observations without ****ing the whole world off...................:)
 
as a relative newbie to photography, I thought I'd add in my perspective to the melting pot ;)

As a newb, it's really very daunting coming on here and posting your pics - it took me a little while and I shivered & shook whilst waiting for the 'c&c'.

People were kind and made some simple suggestions, all of which I really appreciated.

Looking at other peoples work - especially the likes of Jollyjack, pirate neilsouth, zarozinia, spxxx, ajophotog, davekiddle, kevshore, & hacker - to name but a few, as a newb, you really don't feel worthy enough to critique a shot when all you can think of is 'wow!' when you look at it :|

Although we all have to go through the learning process, we all learn and process things at different rates, and by excluding newbies from just saying 'wow' it might put them off developing their perspective and appreciation for fear of not saying something in depth enough.

I hope that makes sense :thinking:
 
fracster said:
Good call guys. If you don`t mind, I shall stew on it for a while and try to post my observations without ****ing the whole world off...................:)
Click to expand...




Oooh go critique my garden birds post, you know you want to... :p


No that does make sense Maria, I must admit I've once or twice hesitated as I wasn't quite sure if people would think I had no clue :lol:
 
Marcel said:
I've created this new thread as I believe the previous one raises some very valid points.....things that we have been saying for a while, and things that have cropped up a few times in the past. It also put forward some good ideas (which we are relaying and thrashing out in the staff room). Same goes for the PM's and Messages we have received....thanks :)

So, here goes......
Ideally what we need to discourage is what I call NSS (Nice Shot Syndrome) where people will post that regardless without any thought to A: What the OP wants out of the thread and B: What they actually think of the photo.
We also need to discuss the practise of throwing 6 shots up and just adding the cursory "C&C please" at the end of it, without any thought to A: What they want, and B: What C&C actually means and C: What they're going to think when they get some *honest* C&C.
We also need to address how a member responds to critique given. Responding to negative (albeit constructive) critique on the defensive with excuses of 'It's not my best' or 'I haven't finished it yet' etc etc just waste peoples time IMO.

So IMO we need to :
* Increase the thought and effort behind the images being posted up, and encourage the OP to add their thoughts to the *first* post, explaining their thinking behind the shot.
* Discourage overly rude responses.
* Discourage an abundance of "Nice Shot" syndrome (when sometimes it is evident there are errors and problems) All the while encouraging people to post, even if "Nice shot" is all they can think of.
* Encourage more thought behind the replies.


So how do we do it?
There are a number of options available for us to try (or a combination of....)

* Remove the sharing forums from the front page
* Restructure the sharing forums completely
* Introduce a new member-selectable profile field, showing their level of competency (Beginner, etc)
* Introduce thread prefixes in the sharing forums, indicating the level of critique they require for that thread.
* Educate those who don't respond well to justified, polite but negative critique
* Educate those who post rudely
* Encourage those who respond fleetingly, to give more thought to their answers



I'll think of more, but I've been up since 6 and I need a brew :)

Feel free to put forward more ideas. We're here to give you lot the forum you want. What worked for us when we had 500 members might not work now, so I can say as Admin we're willing to adapt and change as necessary to suit the forum.

Just because we have 25,000 members now doesn't mean we can't still be the good forum we have always strived to be. It doesn't mean we have to settle for a lack of replies to threads, or poorly thought out posts. We can change it for the better.
Let's keep this forum the best photography forum out there. After all, we're here to enjoy, learn, improve and talk about our photography.
Click to expand...


You can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. So goes an old saying.
Have we not been some way down this road before & it did not go anywhere.:thinking:
 
One of my pet hates is going into a forum after a TP meet and finding it full of individual threads, perfect example is the WHF visits, 14 people each posting about each type of big cat.
So you end up either opening hundreds of threads or giving up.
When I went a couple of years ago Hypnotic opened on thread for each of the cats and we added our pictures, so much easier to keep up with and get far more comments and views :shrug:
As has been said, I often get to a thread after everyone else and when they are all praising a picture I think is rubbish I get to doubt my opinion.
 
I think the general photo sharing and photos for pleasure has helped a lot with the classification of feedback needed in a lot of the cases.

I think all of the suggestions are good ones - especially asking posters to be more proactive in post 1 asking what feedback they would like. The only addition I could suggest is to have either areas within each section or a prefix to maybe suggest if the poster wants help with pp, composition, technique etc? I find some people ask for c&c when they may not be able to reshoot but their pictures could be improved with pp for example? Not sure about signifying this - segregating the sections would be hard and prefix messy - perhaps just encourage OP to put in bold what he/she/it is after in posting on TP?

Tricky one...
 
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it would be easy to overcomplicate it matt, we dont want to make it a chore to post.

We can only keep repeating this, but here it is again anyway.
Photography is subjective. You dont have to be a pro to give an opinion as to why you like/dislike someones picture. say what you see sometimes is the best was forward
 
Totally agree matty and I am not trying to overcomplicate - just think that the OPs could state what they are looking for crit on... Most already do.

I think the encouragement should be on the OP rather than responders - sometimes I want to say "wow what a shot. I really like..." but feel that I should be looking for something I don't like so as not to be labelled.
 
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