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ynot

ynot

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Not sure where to post this, so i hope this section is ok.

Ive been asked by a company if they can use one of photos, its easier to explain if i just copy part of the email in.

"In fact, we like it so much that we would like to ask if we can use your image as a part of our promotional material to be distributed amongst dealers and photographers all over the world.

Is this something you would be interested in? If you agree to allow us to use your photograph, wherever it appears your name will of course be properly credited alongside it. All we would need from you is a signature and a high res JPEG copy of the image. If your image has an interesting backstory to it, we would love to hear it!"

Im looking currently to try and get my hobby to give something back or maybe even pay for itself, so I've made a website, i have a few prints for sale in a coffee shop and I've applied to work for Getty. Is this a good advert for me or is this a company thats just trying to get a stock image for free?
If id have been asked 6 months ago id have been flattered (i still am) and jumped at saying please use it. Is this a good way to start or should i be looking to get more that my name advertised?

Some opinions and advice would be great.
 
It's someone trying to use a stock image for free.

Edit:
You'll soon discover that if you push them for anything more than a photographer credit (which may or may not be delivered regardless of what they promise at this stage) the "free" is more important than the individual image.
 
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Im afraid that is true. If they ask enough people to use their photos then they will eventually get enough yes's and can even pick out of that bunch what to use and what not to.
So it seems the choice is, get one of my pictures seen (maybe with a credit) by others or don't.
 
They're obviously a commercial enterprise. Personally, I'd be a bit cheeky with my reply as there's nothing to lose - the below is rather generic as I'd try and tailor it to the specific company (e.g. if it was Olympus there's a lot of scope for fun about their financially troubled past..)..

Dear <named person>

I'm very flattered that you've selected my photograph from the millions posted on the internet to represent your brand in your communications with your dealers and customers. I agree that it's an outstanding image and deserves to be shared with a worldwide audience. As a fellow commercial organisation I am sure that you understand the costs of living in the current economy and how hard it is for a small business to make headway, pay the rent and invest in the skills required to maintain such a demanding standard of work. If you could describe in more detail the nature of the usage of the image you require (size of reproduction, territories, print run size) I am sure we can reach an amicable usage rate that reflects the standard of the image whilst maintaining the best commercial interests for both your business and mine.

I am sure you understand that whilst charitable work is a noble cause, the size of my own business is not so great that I can afford to sustain a business the size of your own with donations of imagery.

Sincerely,
<yourself>
 
Jayst84 said:
Don't be a smart arse. Be professional, ask them for details so you can quote them a licencing fee.

You either won't hear back, or they'll say no thanks, and lie about not having a budget. But at least you know you did the proper thing.
Click to expand...
So by being professional i get ignored or lied to? Is that what your saying?
 
ynot said:
So by being professional i get ignored or lied to? Is that what your saying?
Click to expand...

Likely scenario in this case given their approach email.

By being a smart arse, you will get ignored, lied to, and/or laughed at. And you won't know if a real opportunity ever existed, because if it did, you would have just shot yourself in the foot.
 
I agree with @Jayst84 that there's very little chance of a payoff, but playing it straight there's no chance at all.

At least with a degree of humour you'll stand out from the straight replies, and those that will simply ignore such a blatant grab for a freebie. Unless you manage to tweak the slightest sense of guilt, there's no payoff. A straight reply won't do this.

Photographers are creative professionals, so be creative. Boring creatives don't get the cheese.
 
It is fairly obvious that no payment will be forthcoming. That makes it a simple choice. Do you want your image used in this way with a credit or not.

You have not lost out on anything by agreeing to it but you have not really gained anything either.


Steve.
 
Alastair said:
They're obviously a commercial enterprise. Personally, I'd be a bit cheeky with my reply as there's nothing to lose - the below is rather generic as I'd try and tailor it to the specific company (e.g. if it was Olympus there's a lot of scope for fun about their financially troubled past..)..

Dear <named person>

I'm very flattered that you've selected my photograph from the millions posted on the internet to represent your brand in your communications with your dealers and customers. I agree that it's an outstanding image and deserves to be shared with a worldwide audience. As a fellow commercial organisation I am sure that you understand the costs of living in the current economy and how hard it is for a small business to make headway, pay the rent and invest in the skills required to maintain such a demanding standard of work. If you could describe in more detail the nature of the usage of the image you require (size of reproduction, territories, print run size) I am sure we can reach an amicable usage rate that reflects the standard of the image whilst maintaining the best commercial interests for both your business and mine.

I am sure you understand that whilst charitable work is a noble cause, the size of my own business is not so great that I can afford to sustain a business the size of your own with donations of imagery.

Sincerely,
<yourself>
Click to expand...

No need. It's not being cheeky. If they have a need for something to further their commercial endeavours, it has a value.

The question is, 'what is that value?'.

When I've had such conversations, my first response is always, 'sure, what's your budget?' and we go from there.

I recently received a couple of hundred quid for two images to be used in a tv programme. They were on screen for no more than 3 seconds and I had already been paid to shoot the images.

'What's your budget?' Saves you a lot of time playing 'e-mail tennis'.
 
ynot said:
Ive been asked by a company if they can use one of photos

"In fact, we like it so much that we would like to ask if we can use your image as a part of our promotional material to be distributed amongst dealers and photographers all over the world.

Is this something you would be interested in? If you agree to allow us to use your photograph, wherever it appears your name will of course be properly credited alongside it. All we would need from you is a signature and a high res JPEG copy of the image. If your image has an interesting backstory to it, we would love to hear it!"

Im looking currently to try and get my hobby to give something back or maybe even pay for itself, so I've made a website, i have a few prints for sale in a coffee shop and I've applied to work for Getty. Is this a good advert for me or is this a company thats just trying to get a stock image for free?
If id have been asked 6 months ago id have been flattered (i still am) and jumped at saying please use it. Is this a good way to start or should i be looking to get more that my name advertised?

Some opinions and advice would be great.
Click to expand...

This company appears to be like many others who make the assumption that you're too stupid or too vain to require payment for your work. Just looking at the style of their e-mail tells me that they think all they have to do is flatter you. They're asking quite a lot - they intend to distribute your image to a very wide presumably commercial audience (which I'm sure you understand equates to profit - for them). You should certainly be interested in that - the money should be great! So I recommend you do what Drew has suggested and politely enquire about payment - and feel free to update us on the figure if you want to.

And if they dare to come back repeating the usual claptrap about 'letting you have a credit' then tell them to go and f*ck themselves - politely of course. In taking a position where they feel it's okay for them to profit from your work whilst offering you nothing is indicative of their contempt. However this sort of ploy is often a starting point and many of these organisations (if they like your picture half as much as they say they do) will in fact have a realistic budget on the backburner - in which case their reply should be positive. That has happened to me enough times to know that it's worth engaging in a little 'professional' dialogue.

There is a useful discussion here, though on a much smaller scale: https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/image-in-national-magazine-with-no-credit-to-me.580303/ reiterating how worthless a credit is.
 
What would you get from letting them use it? If the answer is nothing, then tell them to sod off.
 
Thanks for all the replies.
I had a think about it, exchanged a few emails. As much as id like to sell my photos i currently done, so thought getting a photo out there may help lead to new possibilities.
They are sending me a few items in exchange for the photograph. Nothing to the cost that i think they would have to pay if they went and bought an image but still its something. I made it clear that this is a one off and if anything is wanted in the future then payment will be required.
Hopefully ill get to a place where people are willing to pay for my photographs.

The photograph in question.......


Warriors by Tony Sellen, on Flickr
 
ynot said:
..... thought getting a photo out there may help lead to new possibilities.
They are sending me a few items in exchange for the photograph. Nothing to the cost that i think they would have to pay if they went and bought an image but still its something.
Hopefully ill get to a place where people are willing to pay for my photographs.

Warriors by Tony Sellen, on Flickr
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Tony, getting a picture 'out there' is utterly without value unless it ends up in a place where a reasonable number of your target client group will be looking for images of that type, or a photographer to fulfil their business needs.

I get the impression you are not entirely happy with the arrangement you arrived at, and I hope what they have offered you hasn't undervalued your work by too much - for the needs your client described I would be asking a high figure for that picture (or any other). If this is about promoting photography related products then hopefully they have at least agreed to send you a good camera or a couple of useful lenses. You deserve that.

You will only get to a place where people are willing to pay for your photographs if you insist that people actually pay for them!

By the way, I think your shot is great.
 
ynot said:
Thanks for all the replies.
I had a think about it, exchanged a few emails. As much as id like to sell my photos i currently done, so thought getting a photo out there may help lead to new possibilities.
They are sending me a few items in exchange for the photograph. Nothing to the cost that i think they would have to pay if they went and bought an image but still its something. I made it clear that this is a one off and if anything is wanted in the future then payment will be required.
Hopefully ill get to a place where people are willing to pay for my photographs.

The photograph in question.......


Warriors by Tony Sellen, on Flickr
Click to expand...
You have been bent over and royally shafted up your ass my friend, and telling them this is a one off makes me and them laugh, they will just move onto the next mug for their next required photo
 
I know I've very much undersold it. I don't have people lining up to use my photos so what i have got (and its very little) is more than i had before.
If I had insisted on a payment they would have gone elsewhere anyway. I know they already do and i know they offer nothing to others. I'm sure they get a lot of images for nothing, so me taking the high ground and saying no would not have changed anything.
 
Absolutely. It's totally your choice. You are only a mug if you consider yourself to be one. Others cannot feel that way on your behalf.


Steve.
 
It's a great shot, and obviously has a certain something other shots of this location wouldn't have. And one that they should have paid you cold, hard cash for!

I've had similar situations where people have mailed asking for a shot for free, and I've replied I would only sell it to them for something and more often than not the reply has been 'OK then, let's discuss financial terms' etc. Always worth trying.
 
ynot said:
I know I've very much undersold it. I don't have people lining up to use my photos so what i have got (and its very little) is more than i had before.
If I had insisted on a payment they would have gone elsewhere anyway. I know they already do and i know they offer nothing to others. I'm sure they get a lot of images for nothing, so me taking the high ground and saying no would not have changed anything.
Click to expand...

Those arguments don't hold much water Tony. Please understand I'm not having a go at you, but if a big commercial business wants to use your picture then what does that tell you? If you had insisted on payment then they would either pay you, or refuse to pay you and go elsewhere. Either of those are favourable outcomes actually, but paying you very little for something which will bring them considerable gain, is a loss. If they go to some other mug who lets them have their work for nothing then at least you have the pleasure in knowing that you weren't the numpty who caved in - I'm quite happy for someone to take a shafting, providing it isn't me. Saying 'no' to an unfairly weighted arrangement isn't taking the high ground - it's protecting your interests and refusing to subsidise the business of a complete stranger, when you should be protecting your own bottom line instead. Misplaced vanity achieves nothing - I wouldn't get any sort of feelgood factor from seeing my pictures on an international business website when I know that I am the only person in their food chain who is seen as being beneath reward. Nor would I take any pride in perpetuating the horrible notion that all photographers are simply there to be used.

Of course it's up to you what you do with your photos, but if anyone tells you that you weren't a bit of a mug for letting your work go for peanuts to a big profit-making organisation, then I would invite them to justify their position more fully. Given that we have had several threads along those lines already, it is quite clear that the argument begins and ends with the same line.
 
Lindsay D said:
but if anyone tells you that you weren't a bit of a mug for letting your work go for peanuts to a big profit-making organisation, then I would invite them to justify their position more fully
Click to expand...

It's quite easy. It's none of our business.


Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
It's quite easy. It's none of our business.

.
Click to expand...

Except they have made it our business, by coming onto this forum and seeking our advice. In that respect it's reasonable for us to wonder about the justification for whichever decision is taken - and I struggle with any reasoning behind a move which involves giving a complete stranger, and presumably a wealthy profit-making business, the rights to use the fruits of your labour for little or nothing in exchange. Simply saying 'well it's my picture' or 'it's none of your business' isn't an answer - it's a copout.
 
But your answer will be different to the OP's answer... and to mine, etc. You probably wouldn't give it away for free because it's what you do for a living (I assume).

And it doesn't matter what you think or what I think, It doesn't affect us.


Steve.
 
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As per usual

OP asks.... Someone wants my pics for free.. what shall I do

Lots of advice saying dont give for free..

OP then ignores advice and gives for free..

OP it doesnt bother me what you do with your pictures... they are yours and your choice.. but whats the point of asking for advice then ignoring it?

As has been said.. you ahve been well and truly used and the worse thing is.. you helped them shaft you...
 
Steve Smith said:
But your answer will be different to the OP's answer... and to mine, etc. You probably wouldn't give it away for free because it's what you do for a living (I assume).

And it doesn't matter what you think or what I think, It doesn't affect us.
.
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My answer would have been the same either way Steve - before I became a professional photographer I was still able to figure out what was or was not a fair exchange for something I had created. That really isn't difficult.

It doesn't matter what we think? Well clearly it does, or else the OP wouldn't have asked. We could also argue that it does affect us, or at least the industry - how else have we reached a position where so many businesses and clients think they should have photography for free - because there are so many people out there who will indulge them. And it achieves nothing, other than to subsidise largely profitable entities who have no connection whatsoever to the people who so 'generously' give away their images..
 
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ynot said:
The photograph in question.......


Warriors by Tony Sellen, on Flickr
Click to expand...

Wow - you've managed to make some of London's least attractive buildings almost bearable to look at - that is an achievement. Do the same with the monstrosity the other side of Vauxhall Bridge and you're a genius.

Back to the image above, I like it sooo much, please send me a high res JPEG. Oh, and entirely unrelated, what was the name of the company wanting to buy it? :exit:
 
I did ask for advice, and was told it sounds like they will not pay you. I agreed, they were not going to pay me. So I thought id see what else I can get out of them and they are sending me equipment that I need and don't currently have. Its all they sell that I need. They are not a huge company so don't have much to offer me in goods. Maybe they do have a budget to buy images but id think they get most if not all for nothing.

Maybe I have been shafted, maybe I should have demanded more maybe I shouldn't have let them use it at all. But I had a photo sitting there doing nothing and now I have something in exchange for it.

I'm not a professional its a hobby that costs money, id love to make money from it as I'm sure most would. Yes, to make money from it I need to demand payment for my photos and not let company's have them for very little.As I've said, I don't have a queue of people wanting to use my images if I did I'd know what's commonly offered and what their values are. This is only going to come from experience or advice.

I appreciate all the advice and debate, it wasn't ignored at all.

The company are there in the comments of the photo. If you look on their flickr group you will see that any half decent photo has the same sort of message. I doubt they will ever have to purchase an image and have no plan on doing so.
 
ynot said:
I did ask for advice, and was told it sounds like they will not pay you. I agreed, they were not going to pay me. So I thought id see what else I can get out of them and they are sending me equipment that I need and don't currently have. Its all they sell that I need. They are not a huge company so don't have much to offer me in goods. Maybe they do have a budget to buy images but id think they get most if not all for nothing.

Maybe I have been shafted, maybe I should have demanded more maybe I shouldn't have let them use it at all. But I had a photo sitting there doing nothing and now I have something in exchange for it.

I'm not a professional its a hobby that costs money, id love to make money from it as I'm sure most would. Yes, to make money from it I need to demand payment for my photos and not let company's have them for very little.As I've said, I don't have a queue of people wanting to use my images if I did I'd know what's commonly offered and what their values are. This is only going to come from experience or advice.

I appreciate all the advice and debate, it wasn't ignored at all.

The company are there in the comments of the photo. If you look on their flickr group you will see that any half decent photo has the same sort of message. I doubt they will ever have to purchase an image and have no plan on doing so.
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If the equipment they are sending you is what you want and need, and has a decent value then that's a good thing - you haven't given your picture away for free in that case.

But there are plenty of snappers who do give away their images and get nothing in return. Would we seriously write to somebody and say "I love that garden design you just did - can you send me a copy of it to use alongside our new range of conservatories? Just be aware we don't pay for designs, but we'll send you a packet of grass seeds if you insist on having something back. Just think - YOUR garden design promoting our luxury garden buildings! It's not like you're doing anything else with your designs at the moment so why not put them to use and give them away to us? I see designing is your hobby, so you do it because you enjoy it, not to be paid - and since it's just your hobby you won't be selling your designs anyway. We'll even put your name next to your design!".
 
Yeah, an an example a while ago I got a shot of an event that I was pretty sure no one else had captured as it was at 11:30pm at night.

Asked a national mag if interested? They came back and said yes...send a copy so I sent a small watermarked jpeg with a polite request that they paid their NUJ rate for such a picture.

Picture published the following week. Cheque arrived a couple of weeks later.

Had the exposure in the mag, they got their exclusive, I got the photo credit and more importantly the cheque. Win:Win.

And I helped all the other photographers who might submit in future.
 
Lindsay D said:
My answer would have been the same either way Steve - before I became a professional photographer I was still able to figure out what was or was not a fair exchange for something I had created. That really isn't difficult.

It doesn't matter what we think? Well clearly it does, or else the OP wouldn't have asked. We could also argue that it does affect us, or at least the industry - how else have we reached a position where so many businesses and clients think they should have photography for free - because there are so many people out there who will indulge them. And it achieves nothing, other than to subsidise largely profitable entities who have no connection whatsoever to the people who so 'generously' give away their images..
Click to expand...
Absolutely spot on Lindsay!!
 
It's quite ironic that so many amateurs want to make money from their pictures one day and simultaneously help to destroy the industry by giving pictures away for 'exposure'! It should be every photographers concern when they see this happening. The only way to stop this is to say NO when asked for free pictures.
 
ynot said:
The company are there in the comments of the photo. If you look on their flickr group you will see that any half decent photo has the same sort of message. I doubt they will ever have to purchase an image and have no plan on doing so.
Click to expand...

And here is their approach. This is hilarious….

'This is brilliant, Tony! That water is so smooth, it's insane! We'd love to talk about borrowing this photo, can you please drop us an email to hello@triggertrap.com (with a link to this shot) so we can talk about it some more? :)'

First of all, let's tell you how absolutely awesome you/your shot is.. (I agree with them FWIW :) )

'This is brilliant, Tony! That water is so smooth, it's insane!'

Now we've got you feeling all warm and fuzzy, we'll cloak our 'we know all amateur photographers are so naive they haven't got the first clue about the value of an image that we never have to pay for one' [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] with some more misdirection.

'We'd love to talk about borrowing this photo'

What????!!!!! You mean 'borrow' so you can just keep it on your hard drive and look at it from time to time then give it back in 6 months, that kind of 'borrow'? Or is it the, print off a 10x8 so you can have it on your desk in a tidy little frame for a year kind of 'borrow'?

I'm sure they would respond well to being inundated with requests to 'borrow' some of their gear with promises of exposure on Flickr! Wouldn't it be great to apply the same standards as they do? 'No, no, no, don't pay for it, just tell them you want to borrow it…' Tw@ts!

It's great that you got something out of this. I'm all for a bit of barter or trade and I'm glad it worked out for you but it's still loathsome in the extreme that companies, particularly those whose market is photographers, are such hypocrites.
 
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Yeah, I've heard that word before.

A year or so back I had quite an exclusive American horse feed company ask to 'borrow' an image I had taken of one of the showjumpers they sponsored - to adorn one of their new products. The conversation I had with them was fantastic. I asked them if, given their feed was so great, they needed a photo at all. They told me that great pictures do a fantastic job of selling bags of feed, because the pictures are aspirational and boost the brand. I replied and said, wow, that must help you sell lots of horse food! The answer was "You bet!". But they only wanted to borrow my photo, which meant I couldn't sell it to them because that wouldn't have been borrowing - they only needed it for three years, so borrowing was obviously their best option. F*cking hilarious.
 
To me, this is a confidence issue.

You take your time, make progress, do your absolute best as an amateur and one day, usually out of the blue, someone asks to use one of your images for commercial purposes. It's such a surprise, it's hard to think straight. The flattery, the boost to our self confidence at merely being asked, it's a little overwhelming. So we come on here, we ask for advice, but that doesn't make the feeling go away.

Some of the best work I've seen has come from photographers who are incredibly self critical, to the point where they are producing world class images in some cases, yet still express doubts about their own ability and whether or not their work has true commercial potential. The flip side to this are the professionals who's work is questionable at best, which we have all seen before.

ynot, the image you posted is very good. A slight hint of barrel distortion aside, which doesn't really detract, it is definitely of commercial quality in my humble opinion.

You should certainly have received payment for this image, but, I think most of us understand why you decided to take payment in the form of a confidence boost and a few items instead. Been there myself, it helps and it's far more valuable than a £50 licence fee for you personally. The down side though, is chancers such as the person who emailed you, will continue to do this to amateurs on the cusp of turning professional.

Luckily, we can all make a note of that company name and avoid supplying them with anything at all, in the future.

In any case, congratulations on a great image and on getting your work published. Use the boost in your confidence, keep shooting and get busy with an agency or exhibiting.

Good luck!
 
I have been watching to learn the outcome and setting aside that the OP at least got something in exchange he has indeed been IMO treated badly.

I note that this company has an in-house photographer Thomas who presumably gets a salary but also freelances with mention of weddings and food photography. You can bet he charges for such services.......and that fact alone I find appalling. Does he have no shame in expecting fellow togs amateur or pro to not be fairly recompensed for their creative output.

As far as I am concerned that company need a reality check bearing in mind the industry they are in and the product they sell that they do not have a budget for photographs.

Edit - it gets worse ~ just re reading the biogs on the site there are two others who declare themselves as togs including the founder. The other one has a large client list with whom he has presumably developed some nice sales arrangements!!!

PS I have used this as a sig line elsewhere but perhaps it needs repeating here "credit line is vanity, payment is sanity" for those in business you can see it is a modification of "turnover is vanity but profit is sanity".
 
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ynot said:
Thanks for all the replies.
I had a think about it, exchanged a few emails. As much as id like to sell my photos i currently done, so thought getting a photo out there may help lead to new possibilities.
Click to expand...

(sigh)

ynot said:
I made it clear that this is a one off and if anything is wanted in the future then payment will be required.
Click to expand...

You'll never hear from them again. They'll move on to the next ego waiting to be stroked. Sorry.. but they've got your work for nothing, and they'll just pick on someone else the next time they need some quality photography for free. You've just contributed to the death of commercial photography that little bit more. Well done.

ynot said:
I did ask for advice, and was told it sounds like they will not pay you.
Click to expand...

The advice given was to ask for a budget, usage etc, and therefore decide what rates to offer... not give it away for free.

ynot said:
Hopefully ill get to a place where people are willing to pay for my photographs.
Click to expand...

You're there now, and you're giving your work away.
 
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Steve Smith said:
It's quite easy. It's none of our business.


Steve.
Click to expand...

It is. He came here and asked our advice, so that entitles us to reply to his post informing us that he ignored all the advice given.
 
Despite what people might think from my replies, I personally wouldn't give an image away for free like this. I was just stating that anyone is free to do what they like with their images, despite what anyone here thinks.

I don't even stay at work for a minute past 4:30. There's no way the company's shareholders are going to benefit from my time for free. There are some here who like to be seen to be staying on. I'm not sure what they benefit from this.


Steve.
 
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Pookeyhead said:
What would you get from letting them use it? If the answer is nothing, then tell them to sod off.
Click to expand...


Pookeyhead said:
(sigh)



You'll never hear from them again. They'll move on to the next ego waiting to be stroked. Sorry.. but they've got your work for nothing, and they'll just pick on someone else the next time they need some quality photography for free. You've just contributed to the death of commercial photography that little bit more. Well done.



The advice given was to ask for a budget, usage etc, and therefore decide what rates to offer... not give it away for free.



You're there now, and you're giving your work away.
Click to expand...

As many the advice before is different to the advice after.

It wasn't given away, i have something for it.
I did ask about budgets and how much are they looking to pay, the response was as predicted, no budget.

Please feel free to educate me, what should i have got for that image?
 
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