narbs
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Ignorant People and (parents) at Zoos etc (Rant alert)
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Was your mother in Crewe in the summer of '94 ? 
grotty
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Depends on the age of a child, really. Up to age six or seven-ish, children are impulsive and cannot really feel true empathy and cannot foresee consequences. Of course if a child is causing a real nuisance then parents should step in and redirect them. As for 'expecting to have an interest due to cost of tickets', that is quite an odd expectation to have of young children, in my opinion.
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not really - if you don't expect your kids to have an interest why take them there - save yourself a bundle of cash and go to the park instead - i'm not suggesting the kids care about the cost of the tickets, but the kids should care about mum and dads expectation of how they should behave.
fwiw my 4 year old nephew loves the zoo - hes loves seeing the animals and even tries to photograph them ... he doesn't run around screaming because he wasnt brought up to be an ill behaved oik and because his parents and other adults in the party take an interest in him and his enjoyment rather than ignoring him and focussing on their own enjoyment
fwiw my 4 year old nephew loves the zoo - hes loves seeing the animals and even tries to photograph them ... he doesn't run around screaming because he wasnt brought up to be an ill behaved oik and because his parents and other adults in the party take an interest in him and his enjoyment rather than ignoring him and focussing on their own enjoyment
narbs
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To be honest, expecting *anyone* to be interested in something based solely on ticket price is an odd expectation.
grotty
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Yes, really. Children develop, and change their minds, or may not know if they like it or not. It's probably best not to express disappointment if they don't like your idea, as a parent.
I'm glad your nephew likes the zoo. However if a child aged 2-6,7,8 runs around being loud, it does not mean they are 'brought up to be an ill-behaved oik', or that their parents do not show interest in them. That's a pretty sweeping and ridiculous thing to say, really.
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grotty
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True of course, but much worse to have that expectation of a young child.
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you still arent getting the point - no one is suggesting that kids (or anyone) should be interested because the tickets are expensive , the point is rather that because the tickets are expensive why would you spend that much to take them to the zoo if they aren't interested in the animals ?
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I'm sorry but if a child of any age runs around shouting in an environment where it is inappropriate to do so , and the parents don't do anything about it , then it does mean that the child isn't being brought up properly - equally if the parent hasn't even noticed it does indeed demonstrate that they aren't taking any interest in what little jonny or jenny are up to. (ditto for not noticing they have climbed on to the top of the front wall of the bear enclosure and are balancing on the edge until its pointed out by a keeper - as i witnessed a few weeks ago)
As i said earlier I absolutely agree that loud play is a natural part of childhood, but there's a time and a place , and right by the animal enclosures at a zoo isn't either
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My local zoo, they take Tesco vouchers or the on line price is £71, for 2 adults & two
then there is food and drink, and "must have's" from the zoo shop! and its usually packed at week-ends!
Ridiculous amount of money to pay to allow your child to run riot.
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grotty
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Of course I agree with you, to an extent. If it's inappropriate or a real nuisance then of course the parents should redirect, remove or do what they have to. It's just the expectation you infer that i disagree with. If a young child does run around being noisy, it does not mean they are brought up badly - it's absolutely normal that they also will not stop when asked to and will require help. A silent 'obedient' (detest that phrase) young child could be of far more concern than a noisy, loud, playful child.
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We shall have to agree to disagree - but i would say that the expectation that kids will not stop when asked is whats wrong with much of society today ... when i was young (and i'm only 42 now) you did what you were told or faced the consequences , these days there aren't any consequences and there's an expectation that kids won't obey their parents/teachers etc
that said I have no problem with kids wanting to be noisy and playful - but if they are take them somewhere where noisy play is okay , or indeed encouraged - don't take them to the zoo, museum, library etc because you (ie the parent) want to go there
narbs
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Because it's part of learning. We have a season ticket to London zoo and go maybe once every two months. My three year old daughter has been going since she was about 6 months old - she certainly wasn't interested in the animals at first, she developed a bit of a thing for the monkeys and now all she wants to do is go on the bouncy castle
Yes, there are other, cheaper and free things we do as well. But exposing kids to things they don't yet know they're interested in is, I hope, part of being a parent.
And, back to the op's point, it's another environment for kids to experience and be guided how to behave appropriately.
grotty
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'Obey' - nice. Yep, we'll agree to disagree. Once you've researched the brain development of children come back and post about your expectations for an 'obedient' young child. My child has consequences, but those consequences do not involve being slapped, hit or verbally abused.
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which is fine - my issue is with the ones where the parents don't guide them , either because they don't care/havent noticed or because they think little jonny needs to experience his own boundaries or some such new age rubbish
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I'm not sure anyone suggested slapping , hitting or verbally abusing children - an apropriate consequence for a child who won't stop running around screaming at the zoo is that they get taken home (which also has the benefit that they aren't then ruining the experience for those around them)
also perhaps while you are taking your own advice and researching developmental principals you should look into the principal that children need boundaries., not complete freedom to do whatever the f*** they like,
grotty
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They are not developmental principals, rather physiological - it's literally brain development, not a principal.
Not sure I ever said that children don't need boundries, in fact if you read my posts you'll see several references to parents needing to redirect, remove or do what they have to. I suppose it doesn't really matter as you have your usual argumentive agenda to stick to. Have a nice evening.
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narbs
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I know we're moving hilariously off topic here but if you really think the appropriate way to deal with a 'misbehaving' child is to take them home you'd never leave the house as a parent.
And you also need to realise that there's a difference between misbehaving and not behaving like a 40 year old.
But anyway, any nice lion photos?
SteveSc
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Since when is a zoo an inappropriate place to be noisy, it is nothing like a museum or a library. If you are going to a zoo outside of school times (an particularly in the summer) surely you should expect there to be plenty of families around and with that many children around it will of course be noisy sometimes. Obviously parents should keep an eye on there kids and not just let them run wild but other adults should also be considerate.
As has been said before, there are rude people in every area of life. Yes, that includes parents but just as much includes adults of every other grouping you can think of. If you go to a crowded public space you are going to meet some of them (and they won't all be parents with noisy kids).
ZoneV
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...But anyway, any nice lion photos?
Will a meerkat roasting his nuts do?
(Taken through glass but I couldn't resist.)https://flic.kr/p/fB6BCy
Lindsay D
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Okay. Irrespective of my age, if my parents had to tell me not to do something more than twice, then the next stage was a raised voice to reinforce the point. If I still misbehaved then I received a traditional smack. That always worked because there is something a bit humiliating about getting your arse swiped, especially in public. Even as a child, I fully understood the difference between hitting and smacking, and between a loud reprimand and verbal abuse. But these days many parents are led to believe that if they raise their voice they are being abusive, and that a light smack constitutes an act of assault. This sort of b*llocks robs parents of the very tools they need with which to correctly raise their children. And the result is an emerging generation of limp and overly liberal mothers and fathers who cannot control their offspring, and who will not try to. There are endless excuses, in that the child is simply 'expressing himself', or just doing 'what kids do'. Yes, kids will push the envelope - that is the very avenue by which they learn about society's conventions and boundaries. Nobody expects children to behave perfectly, but I think it is fair and reasonable to expect their parents to intervene when the child's behaviour has gone beyond reasonable bounds and is causing consternation or inconvenience to others.
So yeah, I do actually expect children to be expressive and noisy at times, and to run around enjoying themselves. It would be strange if they didn't. And believe me most of us do build a fair amount of leeway and tolerance into that. But that doesn't mean we can't get hacked off when a line gets crossed. Zoos should be fun and children will be naturally loud - but whilst families do make up the bulk of the visitors, it is not exclusively their domain as it might be in a playground for example. That's where the line sometimes gets blurred and the mums and dads referenced here might believe that it is perfectly okay to shove in front of someone without apology or acknowledgement.
Another example - at a bird sanctuary this summer. A large car carrying what can only be described as a pile of chavs pulls up - I never figured out why they were there, because they clearly had no interest in wildlife. The three kids (aged from about 9 to 14 I'd say) did nothing but abuse the birds. At one point I saw them with a handful of large peacock feathers in their hands - and to my horror they were chasing the peacocks and pulling the feathers directly from their bodies. The parents sat down and watched, either looking bored or smiling. I reported them to the warden and they were told to leave - but not before giving me a long intent-laden look.
Something more trivial - I went to a busy local attraction and got a snack from the cafe, there was one large table free which I intended to share with a family. Except I, and nobody else could sit there because the children had climbed up onto the benches in their muddy wellingtons, leaving a thick layer of dirt over all the seats. The parents didn't bat an eyelid. Not unruly behaviour, or noisy, but certainly inconsiderate and undoubtedly an sample of the kind of disregard that some parents have for everybody else.
I'm on the train coming back from London a few weeks ago - and my shins are getting kicked black and blue under the table by a boy of about 8. I politely point this out to the mother who asks the child to stop. Oh great - high five! He totally ignores her - I ask again. He still ignores her - the parent then tells me that if I'm uncomfortable perhaps I could move to another seat. I tell her no, because the train is f*cking heaving. No further action on her part.
So really, I think this thread is about a certain kind of parent and definitely NOT about children in general, which is what some people seem to think. And I would hate to feel that any of the parents contributing to this thread would regard what I have just described as merely normal life which we should all suck up. But PCness is going crazy and it is just not PC to tell anyone off (especially a child) or use 'negative' words. Just look at the kind of cr*p we now get in some schools and some corporations - you get rewarded when you do badly. Yes, literally. The person who does the best or wins gets rewarded, and so do all the blo*dy losers. Because it's perfectly okay nowadays to not make an effort, to not bother learning your subject or job, or to be late. It's OK to be cr*p so long as you're not boring with it. You are infringing someone's human rights and mental state if you tell them otherwise. You can apply this nonsense to every conceivable failing nowadays. Now don't tell me this hasn't invaded the whole parenting psychology thing which is in vogue just now (big-time in the States and starting to creep in over here).
This is what you get when boundaries are never set, when unruly repetitive behaviours are ignored in those early years, and beyond.
I don't think this discussion is off topic actually, because as photographers we often find ourselves encountering this kind of thing more than most people. As has just been mentioned - you do get twits of all kinds and all ages, but I feel I am absolutely correct in saying that the vast majority of the ones I encounter are people with kids. And I do feel this is equally frustrating for those parents who are trying to do a good job of maintaining behavioural standards, but who are fighting a losing battle when their kids see too many bad examples of what other children can get away with.
God can I go on about this. Listen to me being so mean about today's youngsters - how the hell have I survived this long without turning into a serial killer?
So yeah, I do actually expect children to be expressive and noisy at times, and to run around enjoying themselves. It would be strange if they didn't. And believe me most of us do build a fair amount of leeway and tolerance into that. But that doesn't mean we can't get hacked off when a line gets crossed. Zoos should be fun and children will be naturally loud - but whilst families do make up the bulk of the visitors, it is not exclusively their domain as it might be in a playground for example. That's where the line sometimes gets blurred and the mums and dads referenced here might believe that it is perfectly okay to shove in front of someone without apology or acknowledgement.
Another example - at a bird sanctuary this summer. A large car carrying what can only be described as a pile of chavs pulls up - I never figured out why they were there, because they clearly had no interest in wildlife. The three kids (aged from about 9 to 14 I'd say) did nothing but abuse the birds. At one point I saw them with a handful of large peacock feathers in their hands - and to my horror they were chasing the peacocks and pulling the feathers directly from their bodies. The parents sat down and watched, either looking bored or smiling. I reported them to the warden and they were told to leave - but not before giving me a long intent-laden look.
Something more trivial - I went to a busy local attraction and got a snack from the cafe, there was one large table free which I intended to share with a family. Except I, and nobody else could sit there because the children had climbed up onto the benches in their muddy wellingtons, leaving a thick layer of dirt over all the seats. The parents didn't bat an eyelid. Not unruly behaviour, or noisy, but certainly inconsiderate and undoubtedly an sample of the kind of disregard that some parents have for everybody else.
I'm on the train coming back from London a few weeks ago - and my shins are getting kicked black and blue under the table by a boy of about 8. I politely point this out to the mother who asks the child to stop. Oh great - high five! He totally ignores her - I ask again. He still ignores her - the parent then tells me that if I'm uncomfortable perhaps I could move to another seat. I tell her no, because the train is f*cking heaving. No further action on her part.
So really, I think this thread is about a certain kind of parent and definitely NOT about children in general, which is what some people seem to think. And I would hate to feel that any of the parents contributing to this thread would regard what I have just described as merely normal life which we should all suck up. But PCness is going crazy and it is just not PC to tell anyone off (especially a child) or use 'negative' words. Just look at the kind of cr*p we now get in some schools and some corporations - you get rewarded when you do badly. Yes, literally. The person who does the best or wins gets rewarded, and so do all the blo*dy losers. Because it's perfectly okay nowadays to not make an effort, to not bother learning your subject or job, or to be late. It's OK to be cr*p so long as you're not boring with it. You are infringing someone's human rights and mental state if you tell them otherwise. You can apply this nonsense to every conceivable failing nowadays. Now don't tell me this hasn't invaded the whole parenting psychology thing which is in vogue just now (big-time in the States and starting to creep in over here).
This is what you get when boundaries are never set, when unruly repetitive behaviours are ignored in those early years, and beyond.
I don't think this discussion is off topic actually, because as photographers we often find ourselves encountering this kind of thing more than most people. As has just been mentioned - you do get twits of all kinds and all ages, but I feel I am absolutely correct in saying that the vast majority of the ones I encounter are people with kids. And I do feel this is equally frustrating for those parents who are trying to do a good job of maintaining behavioural standards, but who are fighting a losing battle when their kids see too many bad examples of what other children can get away with.
God can I go on about this. Listen to me being so mean about today's youngsters - how the hell have I survived this long without turning into a serial killer?
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Pookeyhead
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What's wrong with kids obeying their parents? Since when did discipline become a bad thing? If my parents made it clear to me I needed to shut up and behave, I did so.
You associate obedience with verbal or physical abuse? Why? I wasn't abused, either verbally or physically, but if my parents issue a commend in a certain tone of voice, I stopped what I was doing, and I behaved. I was never smacked or hit once as a child that I recall. Kids are coddled far too much by over-sensitive parents these days. I see the results daily: Parents who can't seem to exercise any control over their kids without bribing them in some way.
Nonsense. You think it's normal for children to just ignore their parents and carry on doing what they want? Sorry, but you're wrong. That shows bad parenting. It shows the child hasn't been given boundaries, and knows of no consequences regarding crossing those boundaries. "Obedience" is not a dirty word... it's something children need to learn, often for their own good, and possibly safety.
I fail to see why you have an issue with the word obedient. Do you feel children should be able to do what they want, when they want? At some point, a parent needs to lay down some rules and boundaries, and the child should obey those rules.. yes... obey them. Not "agree" to them (like you can get a 5 year old to "agree" to anything sometimes)... just do as they're told. A good parent will also explain why they need to do this of course... but whether a young child understands or not, there should be a line, and crossing it should have consequences, and the child should know what those consequences are.
Being a pain in the arse in public and behaving inappropriately is crossing that line, and parents should just get your brats under control.
As I said, my parents never smacked me or verbally abused me, but my Mother could stop me in my tracks with a single look. I knew that if I p***ed her off there's be serious trouble, and punishment.
That's another thing that frowned upon these days... punishment.
grotty
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At which point did I state that children 'can do what the hell they like'? I never did and that's not what I think at all. I stated that young children find it difficult to listen to direction due to brain development - not because I'm a careless parent who doesn't give a f***. It's science.
While on the subject of assumptions, do you have any David? I had similar, outdated views before I had mine, though not quite as hard-line as you.
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Pookeyhead
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Yes, I have a child.
Hard line? If what I described above is regarded as hard line, then it explains why there are so many delicate, pampered young adults these days, who are simultaneously cocky in attitude, yet utterly without any confidence to take risks or handle failure. Can you explain what you consider "hard line"?
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Spot on, Lindsay.
When I was a kid I was told to behave by my parents because, I thought, they did not want me to upset other people, but also because bad behaviour by me was a reflection on how they had brought me up - the perception would be that they were bad parents. In some cases this does not happen now and, as you said, "just expressing him/herself" and " just being kids" are the excuses used as they save having to address the situation.
I also think there is an element of some parents still wanting to do all the the things they did before they had children. They do not understand or do not want to understand that having a child will make huge changes to their lives for which they, not the rest of the world, have the responsibility. The classic example is children in a pub garden. Some parents appear to want to do what they did before they had kids - have an untroubled relaxing time with a drink - and they way they do this is to let the kids run around. The parents get their relaxed drink, the kids get to do what they want and the rest of us get to spend some time in a children's playground!
Dave
When I was a kid I was told to behave by my parents because, I thought, they did not want me to upset other people, but also because bad behaviour by me was a reflection on how they had brought me up - the perception would be that they were bad parents. In some cases this does not happen now and, as you said, "just expressing him/herself" and " just being kids" are the excuses used as they save having to address the situation.
I also think there is an element of some parents still wanting to do all the the things they did before they had children. They do not understand or do not want to understand that having a child will make huge changes to their lives for which they, not the rest of the world, have the responsibility. The classic example is children in a pub garden. Some parents appear to want to do what they did before they had kids - have an untroubled relaxing time with a drink - and they way they do this is to let the kids run around. The parents get their relaxed drink, the kids get to do what they want and the rest of us get to spend some time in a children's playground!
Dave
Lindsay D
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I suspect you're right on that one. I have so much admiration for parents who do their best to do a good job raising their kids - tough does not even describe it. But I have also had a lot of friends who have gone into parenthood blind, insisting that the arrival of the child will not change their lives too much. You can imagine that the ensuing earthquake was a bit of a disaster in some cases, leading either to a family breakup of the kind of 'free' parenting described. This sometimes involves children being allowed to stay up as late as they want every night (so they're cranky the next day and can't concentrate or learn) to avoid the trauma of 'bedtime', eat anything they demand (given to them to avoid tantrums or arguments), have anything else they want (also given to them to avoid arguments) because this makes the parents' lives easier. Even the very best parents can go through hell with their kids but at least they try to deal with it.
I
By the sounds of this thread there's a lot of restrictive parents on here.
Who waits 40mins at a zoo enclosure anyway? It's not the amazon rainforest. If it's not showing itself can you not come back later?
In my opinion zoos are family attractions anyway where parents can allow their children to be free to explore the animals as they wish without having to worry about photographers. I don't have kids but still feel like they should be able to be relaxed and spontaneous as they wish at a place like this.
If I ever go to the zoo the only pictures I take are snaps. I'm sceptical as to whether you can get decent pics anyway given the environment. I don't remember seeing any photographer sitting around waiting for a picture like this. It kind of reminds of that Kit-kat? advert with the guy and his tripod trying to get a pic of the panda.
Who waits 40mins at a zoo enclosure anyway? It's not the amazon rainforest. If it's not showing itself can you not come back later?
In my opinion zoos are family attractions anyway where parents can allow their children to be free to explore the animals as they wish without having to worry about photographers. I don't have kids but still feel like they should be able to be relaxed and spontaneous as they wish at a place like this.
If I ever go to the zoo the only pictures I take are snaps. I'm sceptical as to whether you can get decent pics anyway given the environment. I don't remember seeing any photographer sitting around waiting for a picture like this. It kind of reminds of that Kit-kat? advert with the guy and his tripod trying to get a pic of the panda.
OldCarlos
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Even the use of the word is frowned upon these days.
`Sanctions` is less offending, but even that is becoming less fashionable in certain quarters! 
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or maybe you'd bring your kids up to behave in the first place ? it depends of course on how bad the misbehaviour is, but running around screaming when told no to , climbing onto animal enclosures and risking falling in, and then defying parental instructions to stop is sufficiently serious for there to be some punishment... and i agree with grotty that hitting kids is out of order , but going home, not being allowed to do xyz, stoppages of pocket money etc are all perfectly reasonable ways to enforce a parents authority
D
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My thoughts exactly.
I let my little girl run around all she wants at the zoo, as long as she's not climbing on things, running into people or banging on glass, she's not doing much wrong. I wouldn't let her push past someone or squeeze between them and the enclosure, but if you're stood 6 foot away from the side of the enclosure with a camera, I'm not going to tell her off if she walks up to the glass in front of you.
Didn't realise there were so many grumpy sods on here
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It depends on noisy how - I don't have a problem with kids loudly expressing delight or interest in the animals, the sort of 'look look at this one' stuff - that's to be expected and indeed encouraged as a large part of the function of zoos is to educate future generations
however running round and round the golden lion tamarin walk through screaming at the top of their lungs pretending to be a jet fighter complete with gunfire and explosions until all the GLTs are huddled in the back corner as far from the people as they can get (as i witnessed at marwell earlier in the year) is not appropriate - never mind photographers its not considerate to other visitors, even other children who might want to actually see and experience the animals , nor is it considerate to the animals themselves or their keepers who have to deal with the consequence
Likewise throwing stones at the lemurs (south lakes) or hazarding their own safety by climbing onto the front of the bear enclosure (dartmoor) many other examples.
end of the day yes other adults should be considerate and to an extent tolerant of kids being kids, but parents should be considerate of the other adults (and other children) too
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Would you let her do this ?
I'm not talking about walking between a photographer and a subject - i'm talking about totally out of control behaviour scaring the animals and spoiling the experience for everyone.
D
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Nope, but running around during the walks between sections of the zoos, yeah. Whereas reading some of the responses here, she should be silent and right by my side it would seem.
D
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Part of the problem, is that there is a very thin line between 'Unruly' and 'Just being kids' dependant on our own situations. A situation where I think my daughter may just be being a kid, could be considered as unruly behaviour by someone that doesnt have kids. I for one can say with sincerity, that my own personal views on other peoples kids have changed dramatically since becoming a father myself.
But, I know what is right and wrong, and will always try to instill that in my Daughter. I dont want her turning into a complete asshole like some kids I see that just end up emulating their Parents that have no regard for others.
But, I know what is right and wrong, and will always try to instill that in my Daughter. I dont want her turning into a complete asshole like some kids I see that just end up emulating their Parents that have no regard for others.
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That isn't what I was trying to say - when you see kids running up to each section of the zoo 'hey dad look at this one', 'whats this doing 'etc is great to see and should be encouraged - the biggest threat to the natural world is that the next generation grow up not caring about it- and equally there's nothing wrong with running about for the hell of it away from the animals or on the play park etc. so long as the parents know where they are , and have some control over them , which it sounds like you do.
I'm certainly not suggesting that we return to victorian values and seen but not heard behaviour - however in some cases (not yours) the pendulum has swung too far the other way and kids seem to have no boundaries either because the parents are inattentive and don't care or because they believe all this establishing their own boundaries stuff .(I have never forgotten the family i met early in my career as a ranger where the little kid had climbed over the fence into a transformer station and was approaching the transformer while proud mummy watched. I got the kid out and then asked the parent in essence WTF , and was told "oh he needs to find his own boundaries and experience things for himself - you have now ruined the lesson" ..... given that he was in imminent danger of experiencing about 5000 volts I wasn't too sympathetic to that view... you can also bet your bottom dollar that if little jimmy had got electrocuted because i didn't intervene we'd have been seeing a lawsuit.)
But end of the day if the kids are interested in the animals and considerate (or parents are if the kids are too young) of them and other visitors then its all good .
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There was a thread last year I think about how Marwell was finally banning scooters - and they had posted a very apologetic statement to that effect on their website. Yes, they felt they had to apologise to the families who cart these contraptions to crowded places, so that they can scrape and bruise the ankles of anyone trying to walk normally along a path. The extent to which so many places kowtow to families has gone too far in my opinion, so I'm quite pleased when these measures are finally recognised.
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They possibly felt the need to apologise for no longer allowing scooters because they themselves used to offer them to rent at the entrance.