Lindsay D
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Yikes - that doesn't sound very nice. I suppose all you can do is try and smile while you talk to them and maybe do it in a jokey way.
Ignorant People and (parents) at Zoos etc (Rant alert)
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Yikes - that doesn't sound very nice. I suppose all you can do is try and smile while you talk to them and maybe do it in a jokey way.
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Some good point,but as an man you cant even say anything you can bring a world of s*** down on you when it come to children
the simple answer here is don't speak to the kids - speak to the parent - excuse me could you get your nasty little brats/darling little children under control so that they aren't spoiling the experience for everyone else, thanks.... there is a reasonable chance of being told to go forth and multiply but a lot of the time parents will be embarassed and shuffle off to round up the screaming horde.
the other thing is the safety angle ... scuse me ma'am but i'm not sure its really a good idea for tarquin and jemima to be balancing on the top of the bear enclosure like that... what if they fell in ?"
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Look at it from the parents point of view lugging the kids around the zoo who have no idea about photogrpahy or care..... a crocodile appears and theres a perfect spot right at the front to see it... But lets not because theres someone there with a camera? Sorry its just not going to happen is it.. its nothing to do with manners and it wasn't a que was it.... who cares about someone with a camera when you have kids to occupy.. Its the way of the world.. no point crying about it...
SteveSc
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It works both ways, as a parent I have been at plenty of sporting events/public spaces where we have got somewhere early and set up with our kids so that they can see, only to have an adult stand right in front of us and block their view (sometimes to get a photo). Normally a polite word will solve the problem but there have been plenty of times we have needed to move.
You get selfish people of all sorts, not just parents.
You get selfish people of all sorts, not just parents.
Lindsay D
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You certainly do. But I do believe I see more of it from parents. I can honestly say that at some of the events I've been to this year badly behaved children/inconsiderate and irresponsible parents have affected my enjoyment at times.
I have also seen it from the people who have brought young children to my home over the years (uninvited) - they seem to think it's okay for the kids to trash my house without intervention or sanction, and I'm supposed to smile sweetly because they're just doing what kids do. I can then bear the blame for any breakage because I have failed to provide a child friendly environment. Some of the behaviour I've seen has left me speechless.
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A couple of years a go I went to a local reserve to see if the Tern Chicks were about, got to the hide and it was empty, no sign of any chicks, just the parents, but sat and waited, I was joined a while later by younger chap who was there with his family, his wife had gone off with the kids to allow him some time to get some pictures.
One of the adult terns flew down at the water's edge in front of us with a fish, yep chicks were in the undergrowth, took us by surprise first time so we waited for them to return.
Bearing in mind it us a fair sized hide with several viewing points, people came in looked about and left, until one woman came in at about the same time the terns returned, looked out of a different opening, couldn't see what we were taking pictures of for some reason and stated quite nastily that she would wait till we moved so she could take our places, needless to say she was ignored.
If you regularly do wildlife you will realise that patience is something you need loads of to get the pictures you want, and often come away without, it's not a matter of waiting a few minutes then wandering off, same does apllies in zoos to some extent, except the viewing areas are far more restricted so you have to expect to be blocked out.
Worst experience was a different reserve, I had been sitting quietly in a hide most of the morning watching the GC Grebes, man came in with his young daughter and insisted on sitting her on the
front of the hide to take a phone picture for his parents, she screamed the place down not wanting to do it and scared everything off, he persisted in telling her to smile. it was ear piercing so I packed
the camera away, just as a pair of swans decided to take off and leave too.
Chap commented that it would have been a good picture, I sarcastically thanked him for his daughter's help in setting it up, and walked out to a tirade of foul language
dejongj
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This is all so British. I really don't understand this anti children general attitude. Only the other day there way this whole discussion on LBC and the amount of people who don't want them in sight, be heard, etc. Let's lock them up on in boarding schools etc. Reading some of the comments on here it is really doesn't surprise me that that is is such a chequered past with regards to children in the uk.
And then there is the audacity to call us all ill mannered. Sigh ....
/rant over
And then there is the audacity to call us all ill mannered. Sigh ....
/rant over
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I dont think its really got that much to do with people being anti-children to be honest. I have a daughter, but I would never teach her its ok to just barge in front of someone.
Lindsay D
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Not at all. If anything I would say that the UK is very much anti-single/childless people, who are frankly discriminated against at times! No one here is suggesting that children should be invisible or silent, but I do think that some parents are blatantly aggressive and inconsiderate at times. If someone brings their child to my home and damages my property then I have every right to be annoyed if there is no apology or remedy. This isn't being anti-children - it's a basic expectation of courtesy.
SteveSc
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The way I read the OP is that a family (or a least the children), a couple and a women got in her way, yet the majority of posts on here have been about parents with children, why not equal comments on the couple or the lady on her own?
If someone comes to your house they should behave in a way that is acceptable to you, if they are in a public space it is for all of us to be understanding/excepting of each other. I took my 7 year old to a football match at wembley last year and had a few guys behind use swearing loads, as we weren't in the family section I didn't make a fuss as why should I impose my tastes on them in a public space.
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Not ante kids at all, just unruly kids who's parents don't seem to think of others or try to control them in any way, and for the record the first complaints in my last post didn't involve kids, just
a rather pushy woman and her hubby
a rather pushy woman and her hubby
You can always tried teaching your children some manner,you can bet if a child is running about and anything happen to said child all hell will be let lose,and everybody will be to blame expect the parents
T
Tom Curtis
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It is even worse when you are trying to get a clip of video and they wont shut up. Especially in a bird hide when others just go in for a chat. People ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
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whoooosh totally missread my point ............
I dont think people are being anti children,its more to do with bad parenting,and to me their seem a lot of it about
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I don't let children in! If asked why, I tell people that my speakers don't have covers on so will get poked, there's no guard on the fire, the oven's hot - basically the place isn't child proof. The only exception was on our wedding day when our niece and nephew were allowed through into the garden and back. Badly behaved children in public get offered new words to tell granny - that usually gets them removed from my vicinity.
cosmicma
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you lot would love my tribe then 
i'm the guy with a pile kids AND a camera
to be fair my lot are quite mindful where people and photography are concerned they won't knowingly get in your way or barge past to get a better view and if they did they would well and truly be told but i don't expect them to sit or stand there all quite as mice at a zoo i expect them to enjoy themselves, after all that's what we are there for
by enjoying themselves it does not mean upsetting other people with their behaviour and i have to say as a rule they don't
i'm the guy with a pile kids AND a camera
to be fair my lot are quite mindful where people and photography are concerned they won't knowingly get in your way or barge past to get a better view and if they did they would well and truly be told but i don't expect them to sit or stand there all quite as mice at a zoo i expect them to enjoy themselves, after all that's what we are there for
by enjoying themselves it does not mean upsetting other people with their behaviour and i have to say as a rule they don't
dejongj
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Yup same here.you lot would love my tribe then
i'm the guy with a pile kids AND a camera
to be fair my lot are quite mindful where people and photography are concerned they won't knowingly get in your way or barge past to get a better view and if they did they would well and truly be told but i don't expect them to sit or stand there all quite as mice at a zoo i expect them to enjoy themselves, after all that's what we are there for
by enjoying themselves it does not mean upsetting other people with their behaviour and i have to say as a rule they don't
Just like most children don't wreck someone's house either. And if they do, it can't possibly be their fault in my opinion.
Lindsay D
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Thanks.
SteveSc
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I agree with most you have said but not this, growing up we had cousins that if we saw arriving we would have to move ornaments and breakable toys before they came in as they would just be into everything and all over the house. We loved the family (and still do) but at that age the kids really did run amok. If it's your house you have the right to do what you want.
However, I could share plenty of occassions where adults have been inconsiderate of my kids needs when out in public.
dejongj
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Naturally you can make rules for your own house, and you should in my opinion. My point is that it isn't the children's fault, it's their guardians. They should guide them and keep an eye out for them especially when they are to small to understand their own actions.
We spoke and explained things like not touching speakers and that ornaments are to look at and not touch etc.
I've never had an issue to have a word with other people's children as well and explain the situation, and again, and again
I just don't think it is fair to blame them for stuff they have no experience with.
rob-nikon
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An interesting thread, I do understand both sides. The problem is a zoo is a family attraction so child are going to be around. It's not all children/families just a minority, that said adults can be too. Most families are out for a nice family day out so I try not to ruin their day out.
I find it's easier to avoid zoos for photography in school holidays or weekends in good weather. School days are the best days to visit, less visitors about and teachers seem to keep school children away from the person with a camera.
Hides at public reserves is any interesting comparison. There is one public kingfisher hide I can think of where the problem above exists. Birders, families, photographers each have their own interests and that's where the confrontation comes.
I find it's easier to avoid zoos for photography in school holidays or weekends in good weather. School days are the best days to visit, less visitors about and teachers seem to keep school children away from the person with a camera.
Hides at public reserves is any interesting comparison. There is one public kingfisher hide I can think of where the problem above exists. Birders, families, photographers each have their own interests and that's where the confrontation comes.
SteveSc
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Naturally you can make rules for your own house, and you should in my opinion. My point is that it isn't the children's fault, it's their guardians. They should guide them and keep an eye out for them especially when they are to small to understand their own actions.
We spoke and explained things like not touching speakers and that ornaments are to look at and not touch etc.
I've never had an issue to have a word with other people's children as well and explain the situation, and again, and again
I just don't think it is fair to blame them for stuff they have no experience with.
OK, missunderstood. I agree it's not the childs fault but that of the parent/guardian. I thought you meant it was the fault of the person they were visiting.
dejongj
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Oh no, of course not
You do your best to teach kids the appropriate manners for a situation, as you should. But remember that a well behaved 5 year old will act like just that, they are still 5 years old, they don't instantly change into 40 year olds no matter what you teach them.
Lindsay D
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Yes of course, that's absolutely normal and to be expected. I think the point being made is that there is a proportion of parents who don't teach good manners or good behaviour in the first place, or don't enforce it - they just don't care and they certainly aren't doing their children any favours. They just ignore what their kids are doing, no matter how antisocial the behaviour is. Knowing that the parent has acknowledged what's happening is what matters I think, that can be enough to alleviate the annoyance of other people in the vicinity. I don't think anyone is suggesting that being a parent is easy, and I know from my friends' experiences that instilling good behaviour can be an uphill battle at times. But I think fewer and fewer parents bother making any effort.
I saw an example of this a few weeks ago when I went to a local event. A small barrier separated the crowd from the proceedings for safety reasons, but within an hour or so several children raging in age from about 6 to 10 had gone beyond the barrier because there was a brand-new warning sign on the beach. They were collecting large rocks and pelting the sign, damaging it and causing bits of rock to ricochet around, including onto me and the people near to me. The sign had been put there at the cost of the taxpayer I presume. The noise and the intrusion was very annoying and I asked the person next to me if they knew who the children belonged to - I was told it was the couple next to them. These parents just sat there and watch their kids invading a no-go area and destroying council property. I turned around and stared at the father and he glared back as if to say 'say one word and I'll break your neck'. It's this kind of thing that I see more and more often and you get to the point where you want to smack those parents because they're creating the next generation of hooligans. This is an example of a wilful lack of control, but there are also a lot of parents nowadays who seem to feel guilty about disciplining their children because it upsets them, or it doesn't align with their overly liberal views. That is just as bad and the sort of teenagers/adults this creates doesn't bear thinking about.
A few years ago I politely asked some neighbouring children to stop destroying a tree right next to the road (which wasn't exactly safe either) and within moments their father was banging on my door telling me he would rearrange my skeleton if I ever spoke to them again. A friend is a teacher and I know that she and her colleagues go through hell at times if they attempt to dispense basic sanctions - the parents come to the school demanding that the teacher is removed from post and making every complaint under the sun, but rarely acknowledging the behaviour of their child. It's this lack of accountability that really gets on my t*ts at times.
You're not wrong, but the attitude you describe applies equally to people without children too. There are a lot of irresponsible people out there!
If you haven't already seen it - I'd recommend watching Idiocracy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/); it's our future people!
Lindsay D
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madmackem
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Theres no excusing ignorance and bad manners, its down to the parents and guardians. Does my head in. I'm a photographer and a parent and I have taught my kids to respect others and be polite.
With the OP on this one theres no excuse for pushing kids infront of other people who were there first. Wait your turn!!
With the OP on this one theres no excuse for pushing kids infront of other people who were there first. Wait your turn!!
Pookeyhead
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Shouldn't this be in out of focus with all the other chatter that's got sod all to do with photography?
[edit]
The public at large don't really care, or understand your needs as a photographer. It's a public place, and moaning when they don't really leave you enough space to take the exact shot you want is ridiculous. Moaning about other people even being in the same room so there are reflections on the glass for you to retouch out is beyond ridiculous, and actually quite selfish.
For more than a page now, this has been about parenting, not photography. Just move to OOF.
[edit]
The public at large don't really care, or understand your needs as a photographer. It's a public place, and moaning when they don't really leave you enough space to take the exact shot you want is ridiculous. Moaning about other people even being in the same room so there are reflections on the glass for you to retouch out is beyond ridiculous, and actually quite selfish.
For more than a page now, this has been about parenting, not photography. Just move to OOF.
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LCPete
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The OP was talking about someone who pushed directly in front of her and prevented her from taking a picture at all
As I said earlier it's about manners and common decency I wouldn't shove my way in front of someone and wouldn't expect someone to do it to me
I personally would not try to take pictures at the zoo when it's really busy though too much hassle
Pookeyhead
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Exactly. I'd have a word with someone... use diplomacy and people skills, and see if I could negotiate some out of hours access or something if it was so important. Not moan because a busy public space may contain the whole gamut of humanity, including less than accommodating children.
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So would you not feel annoyed if a few ignorant photographers were hogging a viewing area with their gear but not actually using it at the time. ?
Let me explain, a few years ago one of our local zoos had a leopard cub, the enclosure only has one viewing area, a not overly large window.
When I got there, 4 tripods were blocking it. the owners stood back away from them, as I moved a bit closer I was shouted at to be careful as
the cameras were worth a lot, GOSH, really I ignored them, and stayed where I was, at which point one of them noticed my camera, they came forward and moved their gear.
I won't be intimidated by people like that, who were just blocking the area, mum was out and I wanted some pictures of her, not their damn cameras and tripods.
.
Sadly for them, others joined me and a few moments later out came the cub.
At this point a young girl went to push in front and I'm pleased to say her mum did tell her not to, but she was much shorter then me so I let
her stand in front,
Let me explain, a few years ago one of our local zoos had a leopard cub, the enclosure only has one viewing area, a not overly large window.
When I got there, 4 tripods were blocking it. the owners stood back away from them, as I moved a bit closer I was shouted at to be careful as
the cameras were worth a lot, GOSH, really I ignored them, and stayed where I was, at which point one of them noticed my camera, they came forward and moved their gear.
I won't be intimidated by people like that, who were just blocking the area, mum was out and I wanted some pictures of her, not their damn cameras and tripods.
.
Sadly for them, others joined me and a few moments later out came the cub.
At this point a young girl went to push in front and I'm pleased to say her mum did tell her not to, but she was much shorter then me so I let
her stand in front,
Lindsay D
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Ugh, those people sound really rude - and I have encountered shades of that myself as I mentioned earlier with the bird hides where self-important photographers have literally commandeered the frontage for several hours if not the entire day, refusing to let other members of the paying public even have one or 2 min looking out at the view of the birds. It does wind me up and I can understand why that was very galling for you. If I am in that sort of situation at the front I will try to make room for someone to squeeze in next to me (if small children squeeze in front that is no problem at all assuming I can still see something), or if I don't get my shots within a couple of minutes I will acknowledge that it might be rude to stay in situ beyond that and I will let someone else in front. To me that is normal courtesy.
However what the OP is describing is quite different. I think in situations where you happen to be at the front, and where you will only be there for a very short space of time (like maybe three or 4 min if that) then there is ample opportunity for everyone else to have their turn. When that happens and I am at the back, I just patiently wait until the people in front of me are done looking or taking their pictures. It is that simple. However when you are standing there and someone wilfully shoves in front of you because they can't be bothered to wait a couple of minutes for their turn, because they feel that their rights are in some way more important than yours because they have children with them, then I do think that is bad manners and there is no excuse for it. I'm not very tall and when this happens to me all I can do is either politely ask them to move for a moment, or else I have to carry on waiting until they're finished. That situation is the same whether I have a camera with me or not - the camera is more or less irrelevant, and I would not expect anyone to defer to me for that reason.
Pookeyhead
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Not really, no.
macs
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^^precisely that!
I get that you'd been waiting for a while but as you paid the same ticket price as they did, I don't see why you had any priority over them.
If you were far enough away from the glass to get reflections, you'd probably get reflections of people anyway. Even if they got out of your way, they wouldn't know to get out of your reflections too. Or change into all black clothing
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but not all of us ran around zoos screaming and pretending to be jet fighters - some of us were brung up proper like to have consideration for those around us... not to mention that my parents didn't have a lot of cash so if the paid for zoo tickets as a treat we'd have been expected to take an interest in the animals.
thers nothing inherently wrong with kids running around screaming - noisy play is part of the childhood expeirience, but thats what recreation grounds are for , not zoos (or museums, libraries etc)
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