I really don't know what to say about this Christmas greeting.

That family is better armed than some countries! It's pretty disgusting to conflate Christmas with gun-toting Republican politics, I reckon.
 
I do not think Americans (US) have any idea how they appear to the rest of the world.

Dave

The thing is that this is the culture of some in the US. We may think it's bizarre or offensive but it's how they live, or at least how some of them live, and crucially it's legal under their laws. Criticising the culture and lawful behaviour of others is a difficult thing but I suppose as these are white Americans and Republicans it's ok.

A couple of jobs I've had have involved close ties with Americans and I often found myself shocked by the things they said. The conversation would be going along just fine and then there'd be a "Did they really say that?" moment. Well yes, they did really just say that. They may speak a similar language to us but a lot of them just are not us but if it's legal in their country and how they behave in their community what to do? TBH I'm more worried about FGM, forced marriages and grooming gangs which are to an extent cultural but illegal in the UK.
 
Totally agree with your point about nasty goings on closer to home Alan, but just because things are legal in the USA doesn't make them acceptable. There is plenty going on here that is legal but objectionable.
Bearing in mind these gun-toting Republicans tend to be the ones who love hunting, shooting black people for trespass with impunity, and supporting the Capitol rioters, whilst at the same time being bible-thinping Christian evangelists, their hypocrisy and intellectual mediocrity needs to be questioned and challenged if they hold public office especially.
 
Totally agree with your point about nasty goings on closer to home Alan, but just because things are legal in the USA doesn't make them acceptable. There is plenty going on here that is legal but objectionable.
Bearing in mind these gun-toting Republicans tend to be the ones who love hunting, shooting black people for trespass with impunity, and supporting the Capitol rioters, whilst at the same time being bible-thinping Christian evangelists, their hypocrisy and intellectual mediocrity needs to be questioned and challenged if they hold public office especially.

Their customs and practices may not be acceptable to you but lecturing foreigners is a slippery slope that seldom ends well. And to repeat, this is legal in the USA and there are parts of the USA where the population having what look to us to be military grade weapons is legal, normal and acceptable.

If you're going to get into sweeping judgmental generalisations I think you've made my point above, they're white Republicans and probably some sort of Christians so they're fair game. Personally I find your post more objectionable than their gun toting Xmas message.
 
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The thing is that this is the culture of some in the US. We may think it's bizarre or offensive but it's how they live, or at least how some of them live, and crucially it's legal under their laws. Criticising the culture and lawful behaviour of others is a difficult thing but I suppose as these are white Americans and Republicans it's ok.

A couple of jobs I've had have involved close ties with Americans and I often found myself shocked by the things they said. The conversation would be going along just fine and then there'd be a "Did they really say that?" moment. Well yes, they did really just say that. They may speak a similar language to us but a lot of them just are not us but if it's legal in their country and how they behave in their community what to do? TBH I'm more worried about FGM, forced marriages and grooming gangs which are to an extent cultural but illegal in the UK.

And for many in the US gun ownership and shooting is a hobby they enjoy. The only thing is that unlike say fishing or photography, if it goes wrong then it can be disastrous.

But as you say, each culture is different, each country has different things as to what is acceptable or not, and there are many countries with higher gun ownership IIRC than the US.
 
And for many in the US gun ownership and shooting is a hobby they enjoy. The only thing is that unlike say fishing or photography, if it goes wrong then it can be disastrous.

But as you say, each culture is different, each country has different things as to what is acceptable or not, and there are many countries with higher gun ownership IIRC than the US.

I was brought up to see the person regardless of what they looked like and I suppose an extreme example of this is my love life :D as I've had partners and friendships from every continent except Antarctica and they've followed many of the major religions and yes there have been customs and views that I've disagreed with but the thing is that we have to respect other peoples, religions and cultures, unless of course things go beyond the acceptable like FGM.

Not that I'd admire or take part in a family portrait like that, if at all possible I'd as politely as possible excuse myself but I once had to park my Lotus Elan next to some light tank thingies at an army base and if I'd have had a camera with me I'd have taken a picture so am I any better :D
 
I think there is a complex message in the card!

If this was not someone in public office it would perhaps be seen " just one of those things" but from a Congressman is the message polarising even in the states?

As for the weaponry, I surmise 50 or maybe even as recently as 25 years ago, would they have been holding hunting rifles.

Therefore the thing I still find hard to accept is that all the weapons are 'high count magazine' auto/semi-automatic i.e. ostensibly military grade.....though the mother appears to be holding a 'Tommy Gun' almost an antique (1930's to WW2)? Which is in its own way is more deadly.......the drum magazine I think held 100 rounds.

Are such types of guns really suitable for hunting or personal protection i.e. what regard are they seen as right for private ownership?
 
And for many in the US gun ownership and shooting is a hobby they enjoy. The only thing is that unlike say fishing or photography, if it goes wrong then it can be disastrous.

But as you say, each culture is different, each country has different things as to what is acceptable or not, and there are many countries with higher gun ownership IIRC than the US.
The US has by far the highest gun ownership of any country in the World, at 120.5 guns per 100 people.

 
The US has by far the highest gun ownership of any country in the World, at 120.5 guns per 100 people.

I note that the UK has no figure showing........does that mean so few per 100 that it is not of concern???
 
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I once had to park my Lotus Elan next to some light tank thingies at an army base and if I'd have had a camera with me I'd have taken a picture so am I any better :D
Would you have used it as your Christmas card/greeting though?
 
It might be part of their culture, but wtf does it have to do with Christmas?
A rotund old bloke gave them everything they wished for
So why not see if Santa does the same and ask him for some Ammo (which was said on the card)
 
And for many in the US gun ownership and shooting is a hobby they enjoy. The only thing is that unlike say fishing or photography, if it goes wrong then it can be disastrous.

But as you say, each culture is different, each country has different things as to what is acceptable or not, and there are many countries with higher gun ownership IIRC than the US.

It never fails to amaze me the number of inaccuracies that are posted when in less than 30 seconds a check can be made. I agree with your first statement re the reasons that many own guns but not this...You write.....'there are many countries with higher gun ownership IIRC..than the US.'

Since 1972 the number of US households owning at least one gun has remained steady. That's 49 years which begs the question, when did you read or hear that it was otherwise ?

I didn't have to check if that was an inaccuracy. As with most people, I would suggest that if asked which country has the highest number of civilian-owned guns the US would be the answer you'd get. So, what I did check was the number. 120 per 100 citizens. That's 40% of the world's civilian-owned guns owned by less than 5% of the world's population. The next highest, owning a little more than half as many per 100 citizens, is The Falklands Islands. An anomaly, no doubt because of its size and location so next is Yemen at 53 per hundred. Canada and Uruguay..35 per 100. Numbers rounded.

I'm not anticipating a response anytime soon.
 
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It might be part of their culture, but wtf does it have to do with Christmas?

From what I've read the criticism isn't about having that photo posted on Twitter showing what it does because it's Christmas..that seems to be lost on them. It's the insesitivity of the timing just days after a shooting..(last Tuesday) at a Detroit school when a 15 year old pupil shot dead four classmates,injured six and injured a teacher. It's as though it's fine to have posted it at Christmas ..anytime,I assume...but totally insensitive to have done it so soon after that shooting.
 
The US has by far the highest gun ownership of any country in the World, at 120.5 guns per 100 people.


Looks like we've both seen the same error. I was writing my post before you'd posted yours when my wife had our meal ready so I had to come back to it to complete it and, of course, didn't see your post before posting it. I've just seen it now.
 
Their customs and practices may not be acceptable to you but lecturing foreigners is a slippery slope that seldom ends well. And to repeat, this is legal in the USA and there are parts of the USA where the population having what look to us to be military grade weapons is legal, normal and acceptable.

If you're going to get into sweeping judgmental generalisations I think you've made my point above, they're white Republicans and probably some sort of Christians so they're fair game. Personally I find your post more objectionable than their gun toting Xmas message.
To keep things in perspective:
- I was not lecturing foreigners, I was expressing my personal reaction about the inappropriateness of a politician doing this, and the hypocrisy of espousing Christian values whilst being willing and very able to shoot people. I feel the same way (in respect of the latter point) about the Buddhist soldiers in Sri Lanka during their fairly recent civil war, the Hindu's in the Amritsar massacre and ISIS Muslims in their destruction of Palmyra and murder/rape of Christians during their Caliphate..
- My generalisation was in respect of the apparent way evangelical American Christians, gun use, and Republican politics seem to go together in the USA; I know it is not true of all American Christians, certainly the ones I know, nor all Republicans (at least the ones I know); I was not quoting stats because it was indeed a generalisation born of media presentation. I was neither accusing them of anything nor treating them as "fair game", except in this very specific case of a politician making an overtly political statement which is clearly intended to elicit a response by virtue of publishing it on Twitter. Unfortunately this form of politics plays to a certain demographic very well, which is the group I was referring to rather clumsily.

I don't really care if you find my personal opinion on this more objectionable than the Congressman's blunt insensitivity and crass politics. But I don't want to derail the thread so let's agree to disagree on this matter.
 
Totally agree with your point about nasty goings on closer to home Alan, but just because things are legal in the USA doesn't make them acceptable. There is plenty going on here that is legal but objectionable.
Bearing in mind these gun-toting Republicans tend to be the ones who love hunting, shooting black people for trespass with impunity, and supporting the Capitol rioters, whilst at the same time being bible-thinping Christian evangelists, their hypocrisy and intellectual mediocrity needs to be questioned and challenged if they hold public office especially.



Their customs and practices may not be acceptable to you but lecturing foreigners is a slippery slope that seldom ends well. And to repeat, this is legal in the USA and there are parts of the USA where the population having what look to us to be military grade weapons is legal, normal and acceptable.

If you're going to get into sweeping judgmental generalisations I think you've made my point above, they're white Republicans and probably some sort of Christians so they're fair game. Personally I find your post more objectionable than their gun toting Xmas message.

I didn't put you on Ignore as you suggested recently ,I prefer to challenge what's written. I'd like to do so in this case but first would like to take the opportunity to tell you that,as you discovered I was pretty annoyed at the suggestion I had deliberately misunderstood you when you said you didn't care if you get a 'like' or not. Better to have explained it, I'd have thought. That was then compounded by claiming that I was 'intensely stalking' you. I dealt with that too. It was then further compounded by responding to whoever apologised for 'treading on sensitive' ground...I can't recall who..by telling him that he'll soon see who the 'prolific' posters are....ie me. Your posts to date..29,041..mine 7,411. Both joined in 2009. You tell me who's the more prolific.

That was then,this is now so let's move forward.

First off, I only see in Lindsay's post a criticism..a legitimate one in my opinion too, not,as you claim, lecturing. The latest available data for incidents involving firearms is 2019. 39,707 deaths. 60% involved suicide. Would that figure be so high had firearms not been so available ? Suicides account for 50% of gun-related deaths. 14,861 homicides were carried out using a firearm .That accounts for 37% of all gun-related deaths. 3% are accidents. There are 115,000 gun-related injuries a year., In 2018 75% of homicides were carried out using a firearm.

Just on the point of availability.. Whilst chatting to Americanss about their gun culture when I was over there I pointed out that the availabilty issue was paramount. I pointed out that here in the UK when an altercation got out of hand the only available weapon would, normally, be a knife and most times people would survive a stab unless it was to a vital organ. Domestic violence involves beatings,rarely stabbings. Because guns are so available in the US all too often it's the weapon of choice because it's available. You can read..eg 'They were having a heated argument and...whoever....then ran into his house and came out with a gun and killed his neighbour'. The consequences of easy access are obvious. That gun ownership is part of their 'culture' doesn't detract from the obvious fact that it's to the detriment of a safe or at least,safer society and to criticise is legitimate.

You've also taken umbrage at Lindsay pointing the finger at 'white Republicans and Christians'. You may not like it especially re the Christians, having recently declared yourself to be one, but it's true. Despite the US being the most devout of western democracies it's also the most armed. A survey carried out in Kansas amongst Christian gun owners found that 41% were white Evangelicals along with a couple of Catholics and a Buddhist. Those people saw gun ownership as a battle between good and evil. They believe in a supernatural evil and want to protect against it.One week after a 2018 mass school shooting in. Florida the vice President of the NRA said.."The right to bear arms is not bestowed by man but granted by God to all Americans as our American birthright". Couldn't be clearer could it. The more that someone embraces Christian nationalism ...ie the belief that America is blessed by God , the more they are against any form of gun control. We hear the invocation of God at the conclusion of speeches by politicians most noteably, the President..at any given time. He ends his speech with..' Thank you..and God bless America". The other main group who are against gun control are white conservatives ...small 'c' Republicans.

However, smaller groups are now joining them and arming themselves. Those who feel threatened..blacks. There's an African-American Gun Society. For those at risk from prejudicial taunts or worse, there's a recently-formed group within the NRA..the Pink Pistols ...for LGBT members. There was a shooting in a church in TX a couple of years ago .I still recall reading about it...and a nearby resident ,who was a churchgoer but at home, heard the shooting and went out with his AR Assault rifle and shot the perpertrator as he left the church. The man later said.." I think my God ,my Lord protected me and gave me the skills to do what needed to be done. I just wish I'd gotten there faster" An Evangelical preacher said that it made him feel safer knowing that about 25-50% of his congregation had their guns with them.

A society like that invites criticism not only from within but,as with Lindsay, without.
 
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I do not think Americans (US) have any idea how they appear to the rest of the world.

Dave

spot on mate couldn't have put it better.
I think the politions tho just pander to the big demographics without thinking of how it loos
its all about votes
 
I feel the same way (in respect of the latter point) about the Buddhist soldiers in Sri Lanka during their fairly recent civil war, the Hindu's in the Amritsar massacre and ISIS Muslims in their destruction of Palmyra and murder/rape of Christians during their Caliphate...
Well, here's the thing: the more a religion goes on about loving your fellow man and turning the other cheek, the more violence seems to be done in its name.
You'd almost think there was hypocrisy involved in these religions... :tumbleweed:
 
Well, here's the thing: the more a religion goes on about loving your fellow man and turning the other cheek, the more violence seems to be done in its name.
You'd almost think there was hypocrisy involved in these religions... :tumbleweed:
When I was at secondary school (RC high school) in the early seventies, we were taught in History, that the native American Indian had to be pacified by the settlers - Europeans - because they were basically savages.
We also know that Canada did the same thing.


We were always told that we were civilised people. The same filthy politics is going on today, where Russophobia, Sinophobia, Islamophobia exists, because our Western politicians put themselves on a pedestal.
Back in 2006, my wife and I were in Carlsbad California. On a night out in a large, local bar, I remember listening to a rather loud group of US Marines (from CampPendleton), saying that they couldn't wait to get to Iraq and start shooting "Ragheads".
The photograph in the OP just sums up the US attitude to life.
They worship guns and enjoy killing.
 
I think there is a complex message in the card!

If this was not someone in public office it would perhaps be seen " just one of those things" but from a Congressman is the message polarising even in the states?

As for the weaponry, I surmise 50 or maybe even as recently as 25 years ago, would they have been holding hunting rifles.

Therefore the thing I still find hard to accept is that all the weapons are 'high count magazine' auto/semi-automatic i.e. ostensibly military grade.....though the mother appears to be holding a 'Tommy Gun' almost an antique (1930's to WW2)? Which is in its own way is more deadly.......the drum magazine I think held 100 rounds.

Are such types of guns really suitable for hunting or personal protection i.e. what regard are they seen as right for private ownership?

I would guess as guns and shooting are a hobby, so holding them, polishing and cleaning them, taking to a shooting range and shooting things with them. That said I guess they do work well for protection if they get disturbed by a burglar!
 
I would guess as guns and shooting are a hobby, so holding them, polishing and cleaning them, taking to a shooting range and shooting things with them. That said I guess they do work well for protection if they get disturbed by a burglar!

Unfortunately that ensures the burglars will also carry firearms.
 
When I was at secondary school (RC high school) in the early seventies, we were taught in History, that the native American Indian had to be pacified by the settlers - Europeans - because they were basically savages.
We also know that Canada did the same thing.
Possibly because the conquistadors were the forerunners of that form of settlement/invasion.

I was at secondary school early seventies and don't recall being taught that version of history.
 
Possibly because the conquistadors were the forerunners of that form of settlement/invasion.

I was at secondary school early seventies and don't recall being taught that version of history.
I cannot recall whether or what I was taught about 'new world' colonisation.

Having said that some things that I recall reading of/hearing about:-

Native American populations were decimated by settler introduction of Smallpox and VD!

The cowboy movies were the source of our 'view' that the Native Americans practiced scalping but it was the settlers who did it/started it as trophy gathering as proof that 'they' had killed them......to collect a bounty paid by the government.

The Native Americans had little to limited concept of land ownership and money..... resulting what today might be thought of as being conned & defrauded of their land & rights, with treaties that were not worth the paper they written on and/or worthless trinkets as 'payment'.
 
...resulting what today might be thought of as being conned & defrauded of.their land & rights,
As you will hear ad infinitum, the Europeans "had god on their side".
 
As you will hear ad infinitum, the Europeans "had god on their side".
/rant

And man has dominion over all other species......................and thus the earth will become a mono culture of Homo Sapiens dying in their millions because of a believe far removed from religion & faith! :banghead:

/:rant
 
I wonder how old those children were before they were "introduced" into American gun culture...... :puke::puke::puke:


Your question reminded me of this incident involving a 9 year old at a shooting range in Arizona when she accidentally killed the instructor. To take a 9 year old to a shooting range just confirms the ingrained acceptance of gun ownership. I see that when CNN contacted gun experts the answer wasn't that such a young child should not have been taken to a range but that young children should be taught to shoot with single shot firearms not sub-machine guns. I was a 9mm Israeli-made Uzi.

 
From that article -

".........Danas, whose daughters are 11 and 13, said his girls learned to shoot when they were 4 years old, with a single-shot, .22-caliber pistol."

Not something I'm accustomed to....:)..but I'm actually lost for words. I just got the basic details I needed and didn't read the whole article so missed that revelation so thanks for highlighting it. I mean, what can one say ?
 
Your question reminded me of this incident involving a 9 year old at a shooting range in Arizona when she accidentally killed the instructor. To take a 9 year old to a shooting range just confirms the ingrained acceptance of gun ownership. I see that when CNN contacted gun experts the answer wasn't that such a young child should not have been taken to a range but that young children should be taught to shoot with single shot firearms not sub-machine guns. I was a 9mm Israeli-made Uzi.

Just reading the article reminds me that I read when the Uzi was first spoken about was its "kick" that could even surprise those used to handling such weaponry.

What is that is said about a failure of a system..................."nobody plans to fail but failing to plan has consequences" and that story has all the hallmarks of the latter :(

PS very few events are truly accidently but more often an unfortunate result of an ill thought out action!
 
From that article -

".........Danas, whose daughters are 11 and 13, said his girls learned to shoot when they were 4 years old, with a single-shot, .22-caliber pistol."

Well they will probably fare better than us when the zombie apocalypse comes :ROFLMAO:
 
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