I have a camera I must be a P**** !

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I think Islam has rules about copying living things (not photography per se), hence mosques are always full of geometric designs and patterns.

I'm no religious expert, though.

Thnaks. I thought that only applied to Allah and various prophets, not to the followers of Islam themselves. I'm no expert either, though.


Musicman, do you know where the objection comes from? It must be a fairly recent one given that photography is relatively new compared to Judaism!
 
I think Islam has rules about copying living things (not photography per se), hence mosques are always full of geometric designs and patterns.

I'm no religious expert, though.

Theoretically, yes - hence those religious statues in Afghanistan being dynamited by the Taleban a while back..
In practice, most Afghans and Iraqis - both Shi'a and Sunni are dreadful for wanting photos of themselves...it is quite impossible to get a 'candid' shot as everyone will gurn at the camera - the only way to get images is to set them up.
You cannot walk around with a camera without hearing "Meester, Meester, Picture Me!" from practically everyone, especially kids... thier parents, if they're there at all, which is rare - kids just go out and do thier own thing - smile happily that you deem their offspring worthy of an image.
 
You cannot walk around with a camera without hearing "Meester, Meester, Picture Me!" from practically everyone, especially kids... thier parents, if they're there at all, which is rare - kids just go out and do thier own thing - smile happily that you deem their offspring worthy of an image.


Ironic, really, that in countries not generally renowned for their liberality, they have no problems with taking pics of kids! :)
 
I have no idea what religion or sect the people in my case belonged to. I simply respected their request. There were plenty of others who were happy to have themselves and their children photographed. The events involve lots of crafts with children making bird boxes and stuff so I always have a set piece or two with a couple of kids holding up their handywork. Doing that sets parents' minds at rest because I'm not being sneaky, and I can then walk around and take candids.
 
Likewise I find myself feeling similar - if a random stranger on the street wanted to start taking photos of my nephews and/or nieces while they were in my care I would expect at the very least for them to ask me very, very nicely indeed and expect to be able to see the photos once they'd taken them. Whether this is right or wrong it is how I feel, and I'd venture that plenty more feel that way, regardless of how they think they "should" feel.
I think this is fair enough TBH. Everyone's different and their reaction to things is going to be different (subjectivity). I don't think I would take immediate offence to the situation you describe. I'd "be aware" of going on, but unless I think their activities are unhealthily focused on my kids alone then I'm not going to take objection i.e. there's a big difference between a bloke taking photos out and about that happens to have my kid in it and one that's just fixated on taking photos of my kid.

Even then, my reaction wouldn't be to storm up and shout "put that camera down you p***!", I'd hope to ask politely - though sternly - "why such an interest?" and unless I'm satisfied I'll ask them to stop. In most cases, I would expect the photographer to be as reasonable and respect my wishes. Of course you can go sighting law, public place, etc but I think decency (which is really at the heart of the issue and where things have all gone awry) is to respect another's, reasonable, wishes - so allow the tog reasonable latitude to carry out their activities, and expect a reasonable response when I think he's overstepped the mark. Most people just can't be decent to people anymore.

A big part of the problem as I see it is there is a demonisation of photographers around children as being paedophiles and as such they become the face of an evil that happens behind closed doors. I'm not even sure where that's come from. But I'd be willing to bet that in 99.9999+% cases the photographer is acting entirely innocently (certainly with respect to this particular law) and so it's incredibly sad that everyone is tarred with that brush, particularly where no actual evidence to the contrary has been presented (i.e. that a large portion of photographers down the park, swimming pool, beach, etc are there for unhealthy reasons). And society is the poorer for it.

Something that might be a bit unsettling and that I can't quite square in my head is if a paedophile with a camera is acting entirely normally as compared to a "regular" photographer, is it actually a crime? Obviously what they do with the images "may" become a crime, but is it actually a crime (serious question)? As I say I have a horrible head/heart logic/emotion on this one. On the one hand the act of taking the photograph has no "victim" - the subject matter may be entirely oblivious. On the other, nobody wants to think of someone like that having pictures of our children :shudder:.

Not a nice subject obviously, made worse if we're all branded as one.

(ps I'm willing to bet that as my child grows older and I have more encounters my stance is likely to harden in that over-protective parent way - I'd hope not and that and I can maintain a sensible head, but it's a crazy world we live in)
 
Musicman, do you know where the objection comes from? It must be a fairly recent one given that photography is relatively new compared to Judaism!

In common with some elements of Islam (from the same or similar roots) some Ultra Orthodox believe that making any image of a person or living thing to be wrong.

http://jqr.pennpress.org/PennPress/journals/jqr/whatdoesitmean.pdf

Jewish Quarterly Review said:
Since the mid-nineteenth century, shortly after the invention of this medium, pho- tography has presented Jews, as it has many other communities, with the unprecedented opportunities and challenges of a new means of represen- tation and communication. Jews’ negative responses to photography may come to mind more readily, such as the resistance of some ultraorthodox Jews, to this day, to being photographed—whether because they under- stand it as a violation of the prohibition against image-making or because they regard photography as a problematic challenge to Jewish notions of modesty in public, or for some additional reason.

On depictions of women - 'a violation of female modesty' according to the BBC report of a recent case where female Israeli cabinet ministers were digitally removed from an official photograph by two newspapers

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7982146.stm

The act of taking a picture may also be considered 'work' and in violation of the prohibition of working on the Sabbath, even if it's done by someone who does not share their beliefs.

It's also fairly apparent that much of the above is limited to only a very small proportion of even Orthodox Judaism.

I'm not Jewish, so I'm looking at this from outside, FWIW.
 
In common with some elements of Islam (from the same or similar roots) some Ultra Orthodox believe that making any image of a person or living thing to be wrong.

http://jqr.pennpress.org/PennPress/journals/jqr/whatdoesitmean.pdf



On depictions of women - 'a violation of female modesty' according to the BBC report of a recent case where female Israeli cabinet ministers were digitally removed from an official photograph by two newspapers

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7982146.stm

The act of taking a picture may also be considered 'work' and in violation of the prohibition of working on the Sabbath, even if it's done by someone who does not share their beliefs.

It's also fairly apparent that much of the above is limited to only a very small proportion of even Orthodox Judaism.

I'm not Jewish, so I'm looking at this from outside, FWIW.

Interesting, thanks.
 
I was about to start a new post regarding the exact same thing that has just happened to me, I have just been to the park with my wife and our 2 children, I took along my 1d3 and my newly purchased 135 to take some shots, I was extra careful to only raise my camera when my kids were isolated, within 10 minutes of being there I was approached by an over zealous park warden telling me I had to stop taking photos, I pointed out that I was only taking photos of my own children and was quite happy for him to look through the pics, he told me that unless I stopped he would call the police, unnoticed by me at this time several parents had started to gather,about 4 or 5 fathers were now close by me and started telling me I had no right and that my sort should leave the park, I pointed out that the children were my children and that I was happy for them to look at the pics, by this point I was angry but embarrassed, I promptly collected my children and wife and left, I have to say, I sit here typing this and I am completely at a loss at peoples reactions, what should have been a pleasant sunday afternoon visit to the park quickly turned sinister, has the world gone mad?

Really really feel for you :( That is a horrible thing to go through. I take my camera with me when i go to the park with my twins. I am scared as hell of taking pictures of them in case something like the above happens. I hardly take any pics due to this fear... if what happened to you ever happened to me I don't think i would ever take a picture in public again :(

It's all well and good saying call the police. Would you really subject your kids and grandkids to that though?
 
Really really feel for you :( That is a horrible thing to go through. I take my camera with me when i go to the park with my twins. I am scared as hell of taking pictures of them in case something like the above happens. I hardly take any pics due to this fear... if what happened to you ever happened to me I don't think i would ever take a picture in public again :(

It's all well and good saying call the police. Would you really subject your kids and grandkids to that though?

It is a sad fact that should the police arrive, it will be, inevitably, the photographer who will be asked to move on. This will seemingly vindicate the park keeper and the parents, making the whole situation worse.

I havn't been approached, I have had some funny looks though.

Placed my enhanced CRB in my camera bag now, for what its worth. :shrug:
 
Nice to know that you think of any man as a potential paedophile. If you think it's sad that it's come to this, you should perhaps look at your own attitude. And if you're worried about kids in pictures, why the topless baby in your avatar?

Thanks for this :bang: , however as a mum i have an inbuilt sense of protection, I am not stupid and do not think of any man as a potential paedophile. It might not be right in your eyes but If i saw a man at a park alone taking pictures of the kids (who quite clearly have nothing to do with him) I would feel quite wary - as i'm sure most parents would ! Just as if someone was stood snapping your car or house, you would feel nervous !

I have no problem with kids in pictures at all if they are taken for good reason and not by the dodgy minority in this country who need locking up, however such people do not have a warning sign above their heads saying "Attention, I am a Paedophile" so i would rather be more vigilant / protective, etc. And if you think my 50px avatar is worthy of paedophile material then fair enough :cuckoo:
 
Thanks for this :bang: , however as a mum i have an inbuilt sense of protection, I am not stupid and do not think of any man as a potential paedophile. It might not be right in your eyes but If i saw a man at a park alone taking pictures of the kids (who quite clearly have nothing to do with him) I would feel quite wary - as i'm sure most parents would ! Just as if someone was stood snapping your car or house, you would feel nervous !

I have no problem with kids in pictures at all if they are taken for good reason and not by the dodgy minority in this country who need locking up, however such people do not have a warning sign above their heads saying "Attention, I am a Paedophile" so i would rather be more vigilant / protective, etc. And if you think my 50px avatar is worthy of paedophile material then fair enough :cuckoo:

Hmmmm Natalie, you're digging yourself out of a hole here... that's not what you said in your earlier post though is it...?

One last thing though, as a very protective mum I would always have one eye at ANY man in a park with a camera regardless of whether it was an SLR, P&S or camera phone. I agree that it is very sad that it has come to this but people have got very scared :(

I'm with Tenubracon here, I'm afraid. It's people such as yourself, with attitudes such as yours, that contribute to the paranoia at is so prevalent in today's society. You did make a sweeping generalisation re ANY man... you even capitalised it.

Now you're back tracking.

Your response to Tenubracon is a little more accurate, because you are being more specific, but your initial comments re the sweeping generalisations about ANY man with a camera are simply, way out of order.

Personally, I find your comments very general, and quite offensive Natalie.
 
Hmmmm Natalie, you're digging yourself out of a hole here... that's not what you said in your earlier post though is it...?



I'm with Tenubracon here, I'm afraid. It's people such as yourself, with attitudes such as yours, that contribute to the paranoia at is so prevalent in today's society. You did make a sweeping generalisation re ANY man... you even capitalised it.

Now you're back tracking.

Your response to Tenubracon is a little more accurate, because you are being more specific, but your initial comments re the sweeping generalisations about ANY man with a camera are simply, way out of order.

Personally, I find your comments very general, and quite offensive Natalie.

To be offended by me wanting to be on my guard to protect my own son is your perogative, but just as photographers have a right to photograph, P****'s dont, and to keep my own mind happy i would always be aware. Just as if someone stopped the car and asked my son if he could just show him how to get to the nearest shop - 99% of people might be fine but the small percent make us more wary.

Hopefully i have made my point without offending anyone else (sorry if my opinion / attitude offends anyone), the scum of society do not have signs above their heads and so we have to be aware that there could be is a risk.

One last thing ......... if we put 2 polls up, one on a parenting forum and another on a photography forum and asked the same question "If you saw a man with a camera taking pictures over the fence of a playground how would you feel a)Not a problem, b)A little wary / nervous, c)Very nervous" I am sure you would have very different responses !
 
And if you think my 50px avatar is worthy of paedophile material then fair enough :cuckoo:

Just pointing out what I see as an inconsistency between the fact that you're concerned about what paedophiles might do with those pics they apparently take, yet you're fine with showing the pic in your avatar on the internet. No need for the :cuckoo: , and certainly no judgement on my part regarding it's worthiness for anything. For what it's worth, it's a very sweet pic. :)

I am not stupid and do not think of any man as a potential paedophile

I did not mean to imply that you were stupid, so apologies if it came across that way. Any how, with respect to the above quote, you previously said:

"as a very protective mum I would always have one eye at ANY man in a park with a camera regardless of whether it was an SLR, P&S or camera phone" (your capitals)

which read to me like you thought that just having a camera and being male was enough to make you suspect someone, hence my original reply.

I'm a parent too, by the way, and I share the concerns of every parent in this respect. Make no mistake, if a person approached my children with a bags of sweeties or a puppy (not literally, but you know what I mean), I would no longer feel myself answerable to the law, but I think there is a need to keep things in perspective. As many have stated, the main danger to abused people comes from people that they already know, but the media have whipped things up to the point where people automatically think the (very) worst of someone based on nothing more than circumstantial evidence or a hunch. Some of the anecdotes people have told on this thread are truly shocking. To make an accusation of paedophilia is a very serious thing, which can have serious long-lasting effects, irreperably damage someone's reputation and even put them in serious danger. The fact that people are so quick to do it is a measure of the lack of trust in today's society.
 
Even more back tracking, Natalie.

I am not offended at you wanting to be on your guard to protect your own son, of course not. Any mother would have the same maternal protective instinct.

I am offended at your comments and sweeping generalisations that ANY man in a park with a camera is a P****, and the fact that you keep back tracking, trying to dig yourself out of a hole.

I state again, it is people such as yourself, with attitudes such as yours, that contribute to the paranoia prevalent in today's society.
 
:thinking: Why is it that a man is classed as a P**** & not a woman with a camera?

If any man saw a woman with any photographic equipment in what ever form taking pictures of kid's - would they call the police or call them a P****? :shrug:
 
Even more back tracking, Natalie.

I am not offended at you wanting to be on your guard to protect your own son, of course not. Any mother would have the same maternal protective instinct.

I am offended at your comments and sweeping generalisations that ANY man in a park with a camera is a P****, and the fact that you keep back tracking, trying to dig yourself out of a hole.

I state again, it is people such as yourself, with attitudes such as yours, that contribute to the paranoia prevalent in today's society.

:shake: At no point have i said that any man in a park with a camera is a P****. What i HAVE said however, is that I would be aware of any man stood taking photographs of children in a playground, especially if it was not obvious that they were their with their own family. In face I would feel the same about a woman so in that respect, my comments may have been generalised, sorry.

I have not purposely backtracked as i have no reason to excuse myself or my opinion. I am merely trying to explain myself a little more as it is obvious that i didnt word my earlier post very well and for that I apologise.
 
:thinking: Why is it that a man is classed as a P**** & not a woman with a camera?

If any man saw a woman with any photographic equipment in what ever form taking pictures of kid's - would they call the police or call them a P****? :shrug:
Good point Trig. Natalie, take note!

Also, a point Natalie is missing here, is that within the group of 'ANY man in a park with a camera' that she would have an eye on, she includes the father of her child, any male siblings, and her own father.

Would they be happy with that sweeping, immensely insulting generalisation...?
 
Good point Trig. Natalie, take note!

Also, a point Natalie is missing here, is that within the group of 'ANY man in a park with a camera' that she would have an eye on, she includes the father of her child, any male siblings, and her own father.

Would they be happy with that sweeping, immensely insulting generalisation...?

especially as most are known to the family.
 
:shake: At no point have i said that any man in a park with a camera is a P****. What i HAVE said however, is that I would be aware of any man stood taking photographs of children in a playground, especially if it was not obvious that they were their with their own family. In face I would feel the same about a woman so in that respect, my comments may have been generalised, sorry.

I have not purposely backtracked as i have no reason to excuse myself or my opinion. I am merely trying to explain myself a little more as it is obvious that i didnt word my earlier post very well and for that I apologise.

Yes, you're right, my mistake here Natalie, I shouldn't have stated that.

What I should have stated was that you said "I would always have one eye at ANY man in a park with a camera regardless of whether it was an SLR, P&S or camera phone", which of course, only implies you think ANY man in a park with a camera regardless of whether it was an SLR, P&S or camera phone could be one of those undesirables.

Almost the same thing, n'est pas...? Otherwise why would you have one eye on them...? ;)

Natalie, I don't wish to argue with you here, and I am sure you are a wonderful, caring Mum, but you made an extremely broad and sweeping generalisation, one that does add to the paranoia sweeping the nation. Simple as.
 
A sorry state indeed, I was the offical photographer at a wedding a couple of weeks back and I was asked if I was a pervert by the grooms brother as I was taking pictures of his kids:( (to the amusment of the family crowd)

I was bit taken back as this guy was serious (and unprofessionally I said that my camera was a heavy camera to have wrapped over your head).

The result no shots of the grooms brothers kids for the couple (and they are pretty close apparently)

:shrug:
 
To the OP, Sorry to hear about the nightmare you have had. I would hate to be accused of anything sinister and this is why I usually only take my camera when its quiet.
 
i'm really glad its men that are always seen as the bad guys, be it when kids are concerned or violent relationships, ***** me off that a man with a camera in a park is a potential p****, when police are called to a domestic dispute its the man that's gossiped about, and going slightly off topic it's always the man that's at fault when a couple split up and custody of kids is an issue.
 
Drat, I was responding to your comments about the poll posted on another forum, and now they are gone...?

Given the way you phrased the question of course they would answer in the way you suggested Natalie, I'd have answered in the same manner. However, your poll (as you implied in the text that you or a mod removed) didn't reflect the scenario you portrayed earlier. You ought to have put the topic into perspective, and then asked the poll question based on your exact comments.

Not skewed then, eh?
 
whatever guys, think what u like - but yes i WOULD be concerned if my husband was taking photos of kids other than our own !

And I do actually agree that men arent always the bad guys, just look at the recent Vanessa George case for example :(

Anyway, you are entitled to your opinions as much as I am mine and i make no apologies for my views - i'll leave you to it
 
One last thing ......... if we put 2 polls up, one on a parenting forum and another on a photography forum and asked the same question "If you saw a man with a camera taking pictures over the fence of a playground how would you feel a)Not a problem, b)A little wary / nervous, c)Very nervous" I am sure you would have very different responses !

I'm not sure I'd be happy if a stranger started taking photos of my nephews and nieces while we were out and about.

In fact, I'd very probably very kick off. I'd be justified to, no?

And that's the problem isn't it.
With Blogs, forums etc, there's plenty of people prepared to be keyboard warriors rather than actually talk to people. Strike up a conversation with the person.
That person maybe taking a picture of a rare bird, maybe taking a picture of the kids. The thing is they've done nothing wrong, be it male or female.

Amazing amount of paranoia around these days.
 
whatever guys, think what u like - but yes i WOULD be concerned if my husband was taking photos of kids other than our own !

Why? How long have you be married. Don't you know your husband enough to trust him? As a husband I find that a very sad attitude to be honest.
What if he's asked to photograph a school play, childs activity, or maybe is just out for a walk with the family and sees a great shot?
 
Of course female nursery workers would never be caught doing anything like that would they, fine upstanding members of the community that they are?

Strange how it's just abuse when females concerned not paedophilia, even though Vanessa George and Angela Allen both allegedly photographed and raped young children

They of course didn't even bother with parks.
 
I was at a school play a few years with an ex-partner for her sons school play - A parent mentioned to the head mistress regarding "taking of photo's" - the head asked quite politely that NO photo's are allowed to be taken.

90% of the parents decided to dis-obey & click away with flashes popping left, right & centre.. Most of the parents were mums, so how comes no-one espically the head stopped the play to mention that No photo's are to be taken?

No-one complained nor did they call the police & certainly no-one had ago at the parents taking photo's....
 
Of course female nursery workers would never be caught doing anything like that would they, fine upstanding members of the community that they are?

Strange how it's just abuse when females concerned not paedophilia, even though Vanessa George and Angela Allen both allegedly photographed and raped young children

They of course didn't even bother with parks.

No, and as per my last post
And I do actually agree that men arent always the bad guys, just look at the recent Vanessa George case for example :(
 
Then there is the James Bulger case, and more recently some 10 year olds horrifically attacked some other children. So are all other children in parks to be considered a threat to your kids. The perception of danger in society is far greater than the actuality of it.
 
No, and as per my last post

Unfortunate case of typing whilst you posted:)

However your previous posts did stress "men"

Bold highlights are mine for emphasis not Natalie_B

Thanks for this , however as a mum i have an inbuilt sense of protection, I am not stupid and do not think of any man as a potential paedophile. It might not be right in your eyes but If i saw a man at a park alone taking pictures of the kids (who quite clearly have nothing to do with him) I would feel quite wary - as i'm sure most parents would ! Just as if someone was stood snapping your car or house, you would feel nervous !
 
Then there is the James Bulger case, and more recently some 10 year olds horrifically attacked some other children. So are all other children in parks to be considered a threat to your kids. The perception of danger in society is far greater than the actuality of it.

thats it ban children from parks, on no wait a mo........................;)
 
I've had a depressing day at work so i'll part with this thought...

IMO a lot of this paranoia in instigated is perpetuated by the 'powers that be'.

By that i mean that if you keep a society living in fear its far easier to nibble away at their civil liberties and ultimately control them.

Just my closing thought for the day before i head of home for a nice glass of red wine :D

Be happy and keep snapping :thumbs:
 
Then there is the James Bulger case, and more recently some 10 year olds horrifically attacked some other children. So are all other children in parks to be considered a threat to your kids. The perception of danger in society is far greater than the actuality of it.

Without getting of the original subject, :thinking: If anyone took photo's of that actually happening at the time would they class the photo taker a P**** or would they praise them for taking the photo's of proof of what actually happened in order to convict the 2 attackers?:shrug:
 
I've had a depressing day at work so i'll part with this thought...

IMO a lot of this paranoia in instigated is perpetuated by the 'powers that be'.

By that i mean that if you keep a society living in fear its far easier to nibble away at their civil liberties and ultimately control them.

Just my closing thought for the day before i head of home for a nice glass of red wine :D

Be happy and keep snapping :thumbs:

My wine has to wait just getting ready to go to a talk by Simon King about his new book:)

Interesting thought though eh?
 
I've had a depressing day at work so i'll part with this thought...

IMO a lot of this paranoia in instigated is perpetuated by the 'powers that be'.

By that i mean that if you keep a society living in fear its far easier to nibble away at their civil liberties and ultimately control them.

Just my closing thought for the day before i head of home for a nice glass of red wine :D

Be happy and keep snapping :thumbs:

Don't drink it! They put chemicals in there that make you think Jack Straw is a reasonable man!
 
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