I have a camera I must be a P**** !

[Lensflare]

I think part of the problem stems from school - parents have to sign a form giving consent for pictures of their children to be used on the school website, pictures on the notice board, newsletter, school magazine...whatever.

From this they take the opinion that in order to photograph children the parents consent is required.....the law is very much misunderstood but the schools are just covering their backs. After all, they can't even discipline the children any longer (mine still get birched and sent to the dungeon with stale bread and stagnant water for a week if they so much as speak out of turn.)

 

[trencheel303]

I was in Friesland in the Netherlands a few weeks back in a little town called makkum,.
the water was frozen and families and kids were out skating on the canals. I went out with my camera with the 70-200 on so it was pretty obvious and took loads of shots. Nobody batted an eyelid, and I wasn't known at all in the town.

This is very much a British problem, possibly just an English one.

Quite possible, in my local town it's the same as your experience. No one bothers, recently we had the same thing as you where the local fishing lake was frozen solid, and I went down with my DLSR.

Look, there's even young kids there! No one bothered that I had a 'big camera'...

 

[haggis]

I do some photography for a local children's hospice and last November they held a special event where the local school children's choir sangas part of a service. The local area web site wanted a couple of shots for their site and the length of time it took to get permission, through the school,from the parents meant the moment had passed and a good publicity opportunity for the hospice with it.
No-one specifically complaining and none of the parents objected but it was simply the beaurocracy/paranoia of it that caused the delay.

 

[orinoco]

I would have told them to sling there hook and stood my ground and insisted that they call the police, but the look on my 5 year olds face which only 5 minutes prior had been full and laughter meant my only real option was to retreat and avoid what seemed to be a confrontation that was almost certainly going to end in violence

 

[Lufbrarunner]

Tell them your camera has facial recognition and that the ugly filter is turned up to max, so their kids wont show up in your pictures anyway.

 

[Wobbler]

I would have told them to sling there hook and stood my ground and insisted that they call the police, but the look on my 5 year olds face which only 5 minutes prior had been full and laughter meant my only real option was to retreat and avoid what seemed to be a confrontation that was almost certainly going to end in violence

That's a real shame...but as you say, you were out of options really.

I hope your 5 year old had a good day, and it wasn't spoiled by this unpleasant and unnecessary event.

 

[Photo Plod]

Whichever way you cut it, I don't see the photographer winning.

So the police are called, they arrive and everyone has their say.
The easiest way out of this situation for the Police is to remove the photographer, this is made very simple by arresting and charging the tog with causing public harassment, alarm or distress........or antisocial behaviour or some other crap.
The fact that the parents have no right or reason to be harassed, alarmed or distressed is irrelevant, the fact that they are makes it quite difficult for the Police to allow the tog to continue.

I think you're allowing your head to run away with things. I don't believe the OP was arrested or anything of the sort.

 

[konastab01]

I was about to start a new post regarding the exact same thing that has just happened to me, I have just been to the park with my wife and our 2 children, I took along my 1d3 and my newly purchased 135 to take some shots, I was extra careful to only raise my camera when my kids were isolated, within 10 minutes of being there I was approached by an over zealous park warden telling me I had to stop taking photos, I pointed out that I was only taking photos of my own children and was quite happy for him to look through the pics, he told me that unless I stopped he would call the police, unnoticed by me at this time several parents had started to gather,about 4 or 5 fathers were now close by me and started telling me I had no right and that my sort should leave the park, I pointed out that the children were my children and that I was happy for them to look at the pics, by this point I was angry but embarrassed, I promptly collected my children and wife and left, I have to say, I sit here typing this and I am completely at a loss at peoples reactions, what should have been a pleasant sunday afternoon visit to the park quickly turned sinister, has the world gone mad?

I would have told him to phone the coppers...

 

[ZoneV]

I think you're allowing your head to run away with things. I don't believe the OP was arrested or anything of the sort.

The Police weren't called. I think Joxby was anticipating the tricky situation facing a PO if one was to attend.

On the one hand a totally innocent tog out for the afternoon with his young family and on the other hand a baying mob hell-bent on removing the tog from the park "or else".

I expect whoever stays calmest would win. In situations like this, all other things being equal, he who starts shouting usually ends up being slapped with a public order offence and "loses". However, if everyone stayed calm but resolute, it could be quite a tricky one for the PO to sort out.

 

[Photo Plod]

The Police weren't called.

They were. Read the first line of the first post. The photographer wasn't arrested or anything even remotely of the sort.

It's quite straightforward to sort out - I've done it a couple of times on patrol myself, and not once has any incident resulted in anyone being brought in for a public order offence.

 

[waspjunior]

Maybe I'm missing the point, but would a real paedophile want pictures of children with their clothes on?
I can understand as a parent people not wanting their own children photographed by a stranger and they could just ask you politely not to. But involving the police when they have better things to do is totally crazy and OTT.

 

[Photo Plod]

Maybe I'm missing the point, but would a real paedophile want pictures of children with their clothes on?
I can understand as a parent people not wanting their own children photographed by a stranger and they could just ask you politely not to. But involving the police when they have better things to do is totally crazy and OTT.

I'm not trying to put the cat among the pigeons - I'm on the side of the photographer in this thread - but my experience of handling padeophilia is that it takes many forms. Some of what I've seen involved children in clothes, sometimes in underwear, and sometimes in situations that you can only imagine.

Different perverts are turned on by different things, and some are just attracted to the children themselves, regardless of whether or not they're clothed.

 

[ZoneV]

They were. Read the first line of the first post.

Quite right in the OP's post. I was referring more to Orinoco's. I should have made it clear.

The photographer wasn't arrested or anything even remotely of the sort.

Where does it imply the tog was arrested?

 

[snoop69]

But involving the police when they have better things to do is totally crazy and OTT.

If I was in a situation with angry parents, I would want the Police called.

Could be the difference between getting a battering or not.

 

[Photo Plod]

Where does it imply the tog was arrested?

Joxby suggested that the easiest way out of the situation would be for the police to arrest the photographer for a public order offence. I suggested that he was allowing his mind to run away with things. The photographer - in this real-life scenario, referring to the original post - was not arrested, or anything close. That was my train of thought.

In the interests of not going round in circles anymore, I hope that I've made myself a little clearer

 

[ZoneV]

Do you think there would ever be a situation where, instead of dealing with the crowd's misconception and poor grasp of the law, an officer would simply "advise" the tog to leave the park?

 

[Photo Plod]

Do you think there would ever be a situation where, instead of dealing with the crowd's misconception and poor grasp of the law, an officer would simply "advise" the tog to leave the park?

As I always say, I can't possibly hope to account for every officer from every force. However, I would certainly hope not - especially since the photographer isn't contravening any laws. I haven't yet been in a scenario where a mob rounded on a photographer.

It's difficult to be generic because there are so many variables in scenarios, and I don't much like to speculate on "what ifs". The problem here is the general ignorance of people, but I'm confident that most officers have the skills to resolve the situation diplomatically and allow everyone to carry on with what they're doing.

 

[ZoneV]

Fair enough.

I realise it wasn't a fair question to put to you but thanks for your answer and keep up the good work.

(PS. That's funny. I'm sure both my brake lights were working when I left the house. )

 

[Photo Plod]

(PS. That's funny. I'm sure both my brake lights were working when I left the house. )

They were. But you forgot to wear your seatbelt

 

[Musicman]

It's crossed my mind on more than one occasion before: If a photographer is actually (inaccurately) being accused of being a paedophile, would it not genuinely merit a complaint under Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986?

http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?activeTextDocId=2236961

5. Harassment, alarm or distress.

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—

(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or

(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,
within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby.

I'd be insulted, alarmed and distressed if it happened to me.

Indeed, it has once - February last year while intending to take pictures of the snow in a local park (at the suggestion of my neighbour, who is a City of London police constable!).

A bunch of teenagers on a snow day from school shouted 'look at the p*** with the camera'. I hadn't even taken any at that point and had my camera by my side

I just walked off, feeling rather distressed and trying to let it go.

 

[Photo Plod]

It's crossed my mind on more than one occasion before: If a photographer is actually (inaccurately) being accused of being a paedophile, would it not genuinely merit a complaint under Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986?

Not in the sense originally reported in this thread, where it was a misguided report to the police. However, abusive taunting like you describe - people shouting "look at the P****!" would certainly merit it - and more appropriately actually be a s4a Public Order offence.

It would have to be serious enough for a magistrate to be convinced that it is worthy of being in court, so a single "one off" shout is unlikely to merit it (after all, most insults traded between people don't end up with one party in court).

More likely, what would happen (if I were to attend) would be to take the abusers' details and send them on their way - if the abuse can be stopped that way, so much the better - and an intel record created detailing the anti-social behaviour. Arrest is a last resort, and I would only be bringing someone in if their behaviour was sustained or unavoidable.

 

[Arkady]

Not in the sense originally reported in this thread, where it was a misguided report to the police. However, abusive taunting like you describe - people shouting "look at the P****!" would certainly merit it - and more appropriately actually be a s4a Public Order offence.

It would have to be serious enough for a magistrate to be convinced that it is worthy of being in court, so a single "one off" shout is unlikely to merit it (after all, most insults traded between people don't end up with one party in court).

More likely, what would happen (if I were to attend) would be to take the abusers' details and send them on their way - if the abuse can be stopped that way, so much the better - and an intel record created detailing the anti-social behaviour. Arrest is a last resort, and I would only be bringing someone in if their behaviour was sustained or unavoidable.

It works both ways though: the problem is that the 'aggrieved' parents would contend that they felt genuinely threatened by the presence of a photographer taking photos in which their children could appear...
Misguided or not, valid argument or not - if they genuinely think this (and how can we prove they do not?) then the officer would have no option but to ask the photographer to move on.

If there's one thing I've learned, it's that the use of reason to win an argument only works if the person you're arguing with is prepared to be reasonable. Most times you just have to accept that they're stupid bigoted idiots, shoot them dead and be done with it.

 

[Coldeh]

I was about to start a new post regarding the exact same thing that has just happened to me, I have just been to the park with my wife and our 2 children, I took along my 1d3 and my newly purchased 135 to take some shots, I was extra careful to only raise my camera when my kids were isolated, within 10 minutes of being there I was approached by an over zealous park warden telling me I had to stop taking photos, I pointed out that I was only taking photos of my own children and was quite happy for him to look through the pics, he told me that unless I stopped he would call the police, unnoticed by me at this time several parents had started to gather,about 4 or 5 fathers were now close by me and started telling me I had no right and that my sort should leave the park, I pointed out that the children were my children and that I was happy for them to look at the pics, by this point I was angry but embarrassed, I promptly collected my children and wife and left, I have to say, I sit here typing this and I am completely at a loss at peoples reactions, what should have been a pleasant sunday afternoon visit to the park quickly turned sinister, has the world gone mad?

I'm quite appalled at what I've read here, I most certainly would have called the Police if I were to be found in such a situation as a mob is far more threatening than a person with a camera in my opinion.

I would have thought that if a constable were to move the photographer on in that situation, rather than the mob, that they would be acting inappropriately and victimising if nothing else. Something that, in my opinion at least, would warrant a chat with their superior.

I find that being a photographer myself allows me to empathise with other togs. When I notice someone taking a picture of me, I attempt to act like it's not happening so they can continue despite me hating pictures of myself (makes a good excuse to be behind the lens ).

 

[Sparkles33]

I'm quite appalled at what I've read here, I most certainly would have called the Police if I were to be found in such a situation as a mob is far more threatening than a person with a camera in my opinion.

I would have thought that if a constable were to move the photographer on in that situation, rather than the mob, that they would be acting inappropriately and victimising if nothing else. Something that, in my opinion at least, would warrant a chat with their superior.

I find that being a photographer myself allows me to empathise with other togs. When I notice someone taking a picture of me, I attempt to act like it's not happening so they can continue despite me hating pictures of myself (makes a good excuse to be behind the lens ).

I know I've stated that I would hope that the police would be called but I have to be honest, I don't think that they'd understand the law on photography anyway and other than that, I don't think they'd give a damn. They didn't care when I was assulted or harrassed for several months, or when my ramp for my wheelchair was stolen from my front door. To be quite honest, I have little confidence in the police, yes, there are some fantatstic police officers out there but there are some not so good ones too. On the flip side though, often Joe Pulic is amazed that I'm not a turnip anyway, so who knows what they think of me with my camera!

 

[Natalie_B]

As a female I find it hard to put myself in such a position; as yet women don't generally get that sort of response. But I can empathise and would suggest it has more to do with the ignorance of those who accuse. As a stroppy c** I'd have insisted on the warden calling the police so that I could have a witness to his accusation for the later civil case when I sue him for slander!

Ditto this !!
I have never been approached for snapping my little boy and i reckon this is due to me being female, even though i do use my 70-200mm regularly in public which is not the most concealable object. Most of the time i get a sideways glance and then a smile when they realise I am just a proud parent.
I DO carry my business cards with me though, and then at least if anyone does confront me i can hand them a card to show I am a photographer and I would also let them call the police !

One last thing though, as a very protective mum I would always have one eye at ANY man in a park with a camera regardless of whether it was an SLR, P&S or camera phone. I agree that it is very sad that it has come to this but people have got very scared

 

[Chillimonster]

As someone who has been on the receiving end of abuse by over zealous parents in the course of my duties as official team tog for a swimming team, i think its all to easy to say what you would do if faced with the situation. But the reality of it can be very different in my opinion.

I'm not a small guy and can look quite intimidating if needs be (or so ive been told ), however when faced with paranoid parents it can be very offputting, and a normal person can only take so much before they hang up their DSLR. It just was not worth the grief i was getting on a regular basis and i ended up feeling guilty for even using a camera in public so left it home more and more until i just gave up

If i was younger i may have put up more of a fight........

 

[Myky D]

I'd be interested to see how this ties in with people's opinions on candid street photography.

What if one was going for a candid street portrait of a child? Would that be acceptable?

 

[Chillimonster]

I

What if one was going for a candid street portrait of a child? Would that be acceptable?

Legally....yes


From the general paranoid public's POV.....NO

 

[Myky D]

Legally....yes


From the general paranoid public's POV.....NO

Precisely this. The legality is not an issue. But would you find it acceptable for a stranger to take candid pictures of your children in the street?

 

[Chillimonster]

Precisely this. The legality is not an issue. But would you find it acceptable for a stranger to take candid pictures of your children in the street?

I've never had a problem with it.

There are easier ways for those that are so inclined to get their kicks rather than making the effort to go out and take pictures of my kids on the swings etc.

 

[Tenubracon]

One last thing though, as a very protective mum I would always have one eye at ANY man in a park with a camera regardless of whether it was an SLR, P&S or camera phone. I agree that it is very sad that it has come to this but people have got very scared

Nice to know that you think of any man as a potential paedophile. If you think it's sad that it's come to this, you should perhaps look at your own attitude. And if you're worried about kids in pictures, why the topless baby in your avatar?

 

[Myky D]

I've never had a problem with it.

There are easier ways for those that are so inclined to get their kicks rather than making the effort to go out and take pictures of my kids on the swings etc.

I'm not sure I'd be happy if a stranger started taking photos of my nephews and nieces while we were out and about.

In fact, I'd very probably very kick off. I'd be justified to, no?

 

[Deleted member 9479]

Just tell him you earn £1500 a day for taking portraits of kids, why would you want to take pics of theirs for nothing!!

Love it. Added to list of replies. Pure gold.

 

[Tenubracon]

I'm not sure I'd be happy if a stranger started taking photos of my nephews and nieces while we were out and about.

In fact, I'd very probably very kick off. I'd be justified to, no?

No. Assault is illegal.

 

[Myky D]

No. Assault is illegal.

I didn't say I'd assault them.

But do you think I'd be justified in gettting very annoyed with a stranger that was taking photos of my nephews and nieces in the street?

 

[PsiFox]

I didn't say I'd assault them.

But do you think I'd be justified in gettting very annoyed with a stranger that was taking photos of my nephews and nieces in the street?

you did "Assault" is the threat of bodily harm not the act of hurting someone physically (battery)

 

[Tenubracon]

I didn't say I'd assault them.

But do you think I'd be justified in gettting very annoyed with a stranger that was taking photos of my nephews and nieces in the street?

Re: Assault, I assumed that's what you meant by 'kick off'.

Your question may not have a simple black and white answer from a personal point of view (it wouldn't bother me particularly with my kids), but from a legal point of view, I think it does. Unless the photographer is causing harassment, he / she is within his her rights to take pictures in a public place and you are not within your rights to 'kick off'.

 

[gembobs]

I don't have kids, so have no experience with this, but I do fully sympathise though, and feel it is an awful situation to be placed in. I know personally, I would just leave quietly for the sake of my kids happiness.

........ One last thing though, as a very protective mum I would always have one eye at ANY man in a park with a camera regardless of whether it was an SLR, P&S or camera phone. I agree that it is very sad that it has come to this but people have got very scared

I would like to add to what Natalie_B has said in the quote above (sorry for the selective quote), but why just look out for any man with a camera? Why not the bloke sat on his own far enough away from the kids, but close enough to see them, who has spent the best part of the day there?

I spent a summer working on No 1 Piccadilly in Piccadilly Gardens in Manchester while it was being built. It was a nice summer, and every day there were kids playing in the fountains, and every day there was always a couple of blokes on their own watching the kids for hours at a time. On site, we obviously noticed it, but we couldn't do anything about it as they were not actually doing anything wrong - merely sitting and watching 'the world go by'. I can tell you the blokes on site were not happy about it though, but they couldn't do anything without making a scene and themselves being the mob.

What I am trying to say, is that it is more likely the peadophile is the bloke sat on his own in the park for hours watching the kids play, not the bloke taking photos of his child playing.

 

[Tenubracon]

I spent a summer working on No 1 Piccadilly in Piccadilly Gardens in Manchester while it was being built. It was a nice summer, and every day there were kids playing in the fountains, and every day there was always a couple of blokes on their own watching the kids for hours at a time. On site, we obviously noticed it, but we couldn't do anything about it as they were not actually doing anything wrong - merely sitting and watching 'the world go by'. I can tell you the blokes on site were not happy about it though, but they couldn't do anything without making a scene and themselves being the mob.

Why the assumption that they were paedophiles? Maybe 'the blokes' should mind their own business?
The bloke most likely to be the paedophile, like it or not, is a friend or famiy member.

 

[Byker28i]

I didn't say I'd assault them.

But do you think I'd be justified in gettting very annoyed with a stranger that was taking photos of my nephews and nieces in the street?

Really?

I've posted this picture before, I've no idea who the kids are but they were running through the fountains at the local shopping centre, about 5 years ago

You think this is wrong?