viv1969
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So, for you nothing about the prison experience should be unpleasant?
and please use their services
I don't understand...
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So, for you nothing about the prison experience should be unpleasant?
viv1969
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And you don't think that indefinte detention is also suffering inflicted by the state ?
Personally i'd say the discussion of suffering per se is a red herring - prison should mean sufering things you'd otherwise seek to avoid - thats what makes it a punishement.
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I do tho and I'm desperately trying no to get involved in this argument, which is difficult when I read some of the utter pish that's been written herein. I'll leave it at that as there's lifestyle issues I will not disclose, discuss or lay open in public Forum.
I think indefinite detention is suffering, yes. But suffering is not the purpose of the detention, in my view. The purpose of the detention is segregation from society for others' protection. You're right that this is innately unpleasant. Why make it more so?
Keith W
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Given what you have both written in this thread I would say an opinion based on fact
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Keith W
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I hear you
viv1969
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You are quite entitled to believe that.
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Because many offenders don't appear to fear that 'inate unpleasantness' sufficiently to stop them (re)offending
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the basic problem with this debate is that its based on generalisations - "criminals" are just as diverse as any other social group and its not possible to draw a one size fits all
some deeply regret their crimes and will respond well to rehabiliation , others only regret getting caught and will play at rehabilitation inorder to get out and reoffend some more, equally some fear prison and only offend because they feel they have no choice, others don't fear it at all and will not be dettered from reoffending in the least - and some as such hard core offenders or sociopathic individuals that they'd offend even if the consequence was a bullet in the head
the problem moccurs when the state tries a one size fits all solution (whether that is rehab or punishement, rather than sorting the wheat from the chaff and dealing with individuals according to their merits
some deeply regret their crimes and will respond well to rehabiliation , others only regret getting caught and will play at rehabilitation inorder to get out and reoffend some more, equally some fear prison and only offend because they feel they have no choice, others don't fear it at all and will not be dettered from reoffending in the least - and some as such hard core offenders or sociopathic individuals that they'd offend even if the consequence was a bullet in the head
the problem moccurs when the state tries a one size fits all solution (whether that is rehab or punishement, rather than sorting the wheat from the chaff and dealing with individuals according to their merits
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The data on how conditions in prison or length of sentence affects reoffending isn't actually all that cut and dried.
There's some (contested) evidence to suggest that relatively minor crimes can be discouraged by harsher prison conditions, but the same conditions have no effect on reoffending rates for more serious or violent crimes.
I expect the reason for that is quite obvious: people who commit serious or violent crimes are either not thinking about it rationally at the moment of the crime ("heat of the moment"), or they have consciously chosen to act with complete disregard for the consequences because their motive is powerful (the sort of "in for a penny..." attitude which may accompany things like major armed robberies and the like).
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which is a good reason not to release that sort of criminal after a short period of rehabilitation.
Another potential reason is many career criminals see arrest and jailing as an occupational hazard - theres no easy way away from that other than locking them up indefinitely
Well, like I said I have no fundamental problem with indefinite sentences as long as they serve to keep dangerous individuals out of society for as long as they remain dangerous.
archangel
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You don't actually have any grounds for that statement......you don't know if I have served time, been a prison officer or worked with criminals......
Nor do you know if I have been a victim like many others with a grievance.......
And as for saying that I nor viv1969 have not got a clue that is just ridiculous.......what amazing insight from your knowledge allows you to make the above statement......
archangel
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I don't see this as an argument.....it is merely opinion from different members within the forum....
But as I have now seen at least 2 posts mentioning argument I have decided to leave this thread and will not offer any more opinion.....
Each to their own ......
Keith W
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From reading what you have written in this thread gives me the grounds for my statement and again having read what you have written I doubt very very highly that you have ever served time, been a prison officer or worked with criminals
I don't need to know and not everyone who has been subject to crime, and serious crime at that, think the way you do
You don't, that much is evident
And with that I am out of this thread
viv1969
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Terrywoodenpic
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Just wait till the BNP are in charge.
Your direst wishes will come true. It will not be long before undesirables will be flogged and put down the way they deserve.
If we define them as subhuman they will have no human rights.
after all we know how to do it, we have the example of 30's Germany
Your direst wishes will come true. It will not be long before undesirables will be flogged and put down the way they deserve.
If we define them as subhuman they will have no human rights.
after all we know how to do it, we have the example of 30's Germany
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Godwin - you lose this and any other debates you enter into in the next 24 hours
Pookeyhead
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There's absolutely no point in arguing with Viv and Archangel.... just too full of hate to see reason.
viv1969
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Oh dear.
Some holds an opinion which differs from yours, and instead of maintaining a debate, you spit the dummy.
Mature.
I take it you are speaking about violent criminals?
I think people like yourself seem to get confused about perpetrator and victim.
Why is it hateful to wish to see someone's privileges taken away when they are sent to prison?
It is not society who has committed the crime, it is the criminal. I don't think anyone wishes to see someone tortured inside prison (and I am against the death penalty), but I think that most people would like to see prisons only affording very basic needs to the prisoners - what is wrong with that?
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That - all the talk about suffering is something of a red herring - being deprived of TV is not a cruel and unusual punishment
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No.. you simply refuse to see facts.
Throughout entire human history we've devised ways of punishing criminals that go way beyond anything even archangel is suggesting: Torture, disembowelment, hanging, drawing & quartering, flaying, boiling, dismembering, raping, ramming red hot pokers up anuses... there's no end to the cruelty we have devised in way of punishment for criminals. All of them, without exception, have utterly failed in removing crime from our societies. All of them.. yet here you are proposing the same.. except nowhere near as draconian in the vain hope that it will solve crime. It won't, and I have the whole of human history to back me up. You have nothing except a desire to see someone punished. Punishing criminals doesn't not solve crime. If it did, we'd have eliminated it long ago, and the methods we used to employ would still be used, as we'd be able to demonstrate that they worked, and completely justify their use. The reason we don't do any of that is not only because it's unspeakably cruel, but because it actually doesn't work, so why embark on a cruel method of punishment that doesn't deter people from committing crime?
It's about time we sought a solution to crime, not retribution for it, and make no mistake, that's all you want... retribution.
We need to do something to remove them from society, but making their time harder clearly does nothing in way of a deterrent.
There's removing privileges, and there's locking someone in a 6x6 concrete hole for 23.5 hours a day.
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Whilst I am on a roll, I would adopt a zero tolerance policy with regard to drugs in prison. To be honest, I don't see how prisoners get drugs, but two simple things would stop that.
For a first offence, the prisoner would not be allowed any visits for the remainder of their term.
If a visitor is caught smuggling drugs into prison, then they should never be allowed to visit a prison again - unless of course it is to serve a prison term.
Any prison officers found smuggling drugs, would be sacked, lose their pension, and would never be allowed to work in the prison service (or associated private companies) again.
For a first offence, the prisoner would not be allowed any visits for the remainder of their term.
If a visitor is caught smuggling drugs into prison, then they should never be allowed to visit a prison again - unless of course it is to serve a prison term.
Any prison officers found smuggling drugs, would be sacked, lose their pension, and would never be allowed to work in the prison service (or associated private companies) again.
The victim of a murderer spends a lot more time than that in a hole of similar size, and the relatives and friends of the victim spend a lifetime in anguish.
Pookeyhead
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I will concede though, that lengths of sentences in this country are far too lenient. It's for this reason that there's so much petty and anti-social crime. Sentence lengths are a joke.
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All this is operating on the level of punishing criminals. Nothing we've ever done has banished murder from our history... nothing. And nothing you do to the criminal will bring the person back, nor ease the loss of the victim's families. It's purely for retribution and revenge.. nothing more. It does nothing to resolving crime in society, and does nothing to deter it.
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it really shouldnt be necessary to point out that you aren't talking about facts, you are talking about your opinion - you are perfectly entitled to hold it, but equally others are equally entitled to disagree
Really - anecdotal evidence from the time suggests that Draco was pretty succesful in removing crime from ancient athens, and indeed rome had periods with virtually no crime, and periods with excessive crime - the excess activity by raptores largely falling in periods where there werent sufficient legions in the streets to enforce the will of the senate , ergo crime was supressed when brutal punishment was at hand but flared up when it wasnt
yeah good luck with that - there will never be a solution to crime, but knitting tofu and group hug sessions are significantly less likely to have a positive impact on reoffending rates than hard but fair justice and prisones being kept in basic but humane conditions - i'm not talking about a concrete box for 23 hours a day - i'm talking about a concrete box with a basic bed for about 10 hours, with the rest spent either working, or in recreation with felow cons in a basic recration area (ie a yard - not a suite of computers and play stations)
viv1969
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There you go again, stating things on my behalf; things I have never stated myself.
Concentrate on your own opinion (or shall we say opinions, as they seem...fluid), and I'll take care of mine
Pookeyhead
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I'm referring to well documented periods from far more recent history, not ANECDOTAL evidence from thousands of years ago. After all, the Bible is anecdotal evidence.. are we to believe everything written in that too?
Now you're just being silly. I'm not suggesting all having a group hug solves anything. I'm suggesting that continuing to punish prisoners once they've been imprisoned achieved nothing. They go to prison AS punishment, not for it. Incidentally, I wouldn't call your proposal above unnecessarily cruel either, although I really don't think letting them watch TV will somehow make prison more attractive a proposition. However, it has been mentioned that it should be 23.5 hours a day, with only 30 minutes for exercise. That IS unnecessarily cruel, and would serve no purpose.
viv1969
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I'm sure you realised that I don't think prisoners spend much time actually knitting tofu or having group hugs , i was using that as short hand for the liberal softy cobblers that often passes for rehabilitation
" Now lets all sit in a circle and imagine how are victims felt... i'm sure it wasn't very nice for them was it ... do we feel ashamed ... etc " (that by the way is a litteral quote told to me by a freind who's a prison guard whilst complaining about the tosh that passes for rehab )
that kind of thing has been shown to be ineffective with naughty children so it certainly isnt going to cut much ice with hardened criminals who don't give a flying one what their victims felt.
Is this why people react badly to the idea of rehabilitation? Because they think it's some wooly therapy circle?
Rehabilitation is at the heart of every facet of prison life. Being allowed to pursue education, to develop interests and hobbies, to be given roles and responsibilities, to be given structure, to nurture and support ambitions.
It's not a scheduled, half hour a day, therapy session. Although that may be a tiny part of it.
Rehabilitation is at the heart of every facet of prison life. Being allowed to pursue education, to develop interests and hobbies, to be given roles and responsibilities, to be given structure, to nurture and support ambitions.
It's not a scheduled, half hour a day, therapy session. Although that may be a tiny part of it.
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thing is though its pretty pointless - however warm and fluffy it feels - because say some burgular does decide to turn his life arround , thannks to the rehab program he comes out with an OU degree and a great feeling of self worth from all the roles and responsibilities he's had inside.... and a criminal record.
Then he hits the real world where the job market is savage , loads of people with greater experience, better degrees, and no criminal record are fighting for too few mac jobs - pretty soon the reality that he isnt going to climb that social ladder by virtue of his prison education smacks him firmly in the nose and he goes back to screwing cars and turning windows because thats what he knows best
Okay so a tiny minority might get a job in a mentor program or something like that, but for the great majority of ex cons the reality beyond the prison wall is that the rehab is worthless
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What did you expect? this is TP after allwho'd have thought this topic would've ended up in an argument..
The place where wars are fought and lost (or won)
And the most innocuous comment turns into a matter of life and death
As you were guys
