I don't understand...

[ghoti]

And of course neither point of view can ultimately be judged to correct or incorrect.

David Hume would agree. But he'd also argue that we need to know what our goals are, then we can argue in relative terms rather than "ultimate" terms. And I think that if your goals include a compassionate, just and fair society then you'd want, among other things, a justice system based on rehabilitation. And I think that, in that case, we can - within a margin of error - judge things to be correct or incorrect.
Of course, there's no ultimate imperative to want a compassionate, fair and just society.

 

[viv1969]

Exactly. Opinions.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Like debates with religious fundamentalists, one side is arguing from a position of visceral instinct and the other side is trying to appeal to our uniquely human (and humane) capability for reasoning ourselves away from our irrational animal impulses.

Don't forget science. So long as these individuals exist (and they always have no matter what punitive measures we put in place), we have a chance to study them and perhaps prevent them from happening in the first place. You can't do that if they're dead. IMO, they should be made to repay their debt to society, not be executed. If we just kill them when we catch them, then someone has to actually die (and often many people) before we get the chance to execute them. So in effect, several people may die before we "remove" them from society. I think part of their sentence is they are analysed, scrutinised, and used as raw materiel for study in order to find a solution. That would be a sound scientific way to move society forward.

 

[viv1969]

I think part of their sentence is they are analysed, scrutinised, and used as raw materiel for study in order to find a solution. That would be a sound scientific way to move society forward.

 

[viv1969]

And how might such study be carried out?

 

[Pookeyhead]

And how might such study be carried out?

A worldwide co-ordinated study of their DNA to try and establish if there's a genetic component in common... Perhaps build up a very wide reaching psychoanalytic database to better enable early profiling of youth offenders to take precautionary measures.

One thing will be certain: These people aren't random. There will be a reason they exist. And if we can find it, especially if it's genetic, we may be able to treat it, and not only that, but treat it early before anyone kills anyone.

 

[archangel]

And how might such study be carried out?

Like I said use them to study illness, new medicines and such like......

 

[viv1969]

Yes but study how?
By what method?
Can the offender opt out?

 

[archangel]

Yes but study how?
By what method?
Can the offender opt out?

Fill them full of disease and then test medicines.......and no opt out once you are convicted of certain types of crime.....ie domestic violence, rape, murder and paedophilia

 

[Pookeyhead]

Yes but study how?
By what method?
Can the offender opt out?

I'm neither a psychologist, or a geneticist, so I've no idea what methods would be used. The most appropriate ones.. whatever they turn out to be.

Opt out? No, it would be part of their sentence (as I see it).

 

[ghoti]

The story of Silje Redergard from Trondheim in Norway is one of the most tragic and heartwarming stories I know. Contrast it with the frothing response to the Bulger killers in this country.

Norway is a country which limits jail time for ANY crime to 21 years and their jail system is based very much on rehabilitation, with prisoners given innumerable opportunities to educate and develop themselves. Some of their most horrible criminals are given lots of outdoor time on islands where they can tend gardens, enjoy wildlife and be shown the compassion of tasting nature and the open air. It's also the country with the highest standard of living in the world.

Anyway, here's the story of poor Silje. Try not to cry (I couldn't not cry) at the sheer force of humanity: http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2010/mar/20/norway-town-forgave-child-killers

 

[Bernie174]

Like debates with religious fundamentalists, one side is arguing from a position of visceral instinct and the other side is trying to appeal to our uniquely human (and humane) capability for reasoning ourselves away from our irrational animal impulses.

Actually, no, well not in my case. I'm trying to get over that we are a civilised society, and that means we should follow basic humanity. Just because someone has deviated from that, it does not mean we should allow massed slaughter, which is the consequence of what is being suggested.

The reality is, I am responsible for a number of people being banged up, and I am rather proud of that. But while I am more than happy for them not to be able to enjoy the freedoms I have, I don't see their past as a reason for them to be beaten, cut or murdered on the strength of a conviction. It is not for another prisoner to act as a court of jurisdiction.

 

[Keith W]

Prisons may not be to the standard the Victorians designed them to be, but they are also not the holiday camps the Mail claims they are. Ok, the odd exceptions, Ford open for example used to be a reasonably good place to be if you had to serve a sentence, but then you also asked the immates which Police force they used to be in, or call them QC, or m'lud, or my former Right Honorable Friend. But thats an exception, having visited a few (for professional reasons!)I'd not call the Wandswoth, the Srcubs, or Brixton a holiday camp!

Agree with this




(Also due to professional reasons)

 

[archangel]

The story of Silje Redergard from Trondheim in Norway is one of the most tragic and heartwarming stories I know. Contrast it with the frothing response to the Bulger killers in this country.

Norway is a country which limits jail time for ANY crime to 21 years and their jail system is based very much on rehabilitation, with prisoners given innumerable opportunities to educate and develop themselves. Some of their most horrible criminals are given lots of outdoor time on islands where they can tend gardens, enjoy wildlife and be shown the compassion of tasting nature and the open air. It's also the country with the highest standard of living in the world.[/url]

That is a ridiculous method of crime prevention and punishment..........whether or not Norway has the highest standard of living or not.......'if no death penalty is in place then life should mean life

 

[Keith W]

With reference to the holiday camp statement......I know a prison officer who will back up the holiday camp myth.......the first thing a prisoner is offered is benefits for good behaviour.......then if they misbehave then it is taken away.....WTF......don't give it to them in the first place...... he tells me that it is a really soft place to pay back a debt to society....they also have a sex offenders wing......he says that it is an open planned Thomas Cook all inclusive.....


The other advantageous benefits these sum bag of society have is medical care....they will see a medic or doctor/dentist within 24 hours of request.....not to mention a library when the good folk on the outside are having their libraries closed........

I think your prison offer friend is talking a load of bull, either that or he is winding you up and watching you go just to get his jollies

 

[ghoti]

That is a ridiculous method of crime prevention and punishment..........whether or not Norway has the highest standard of living or not.......'if no death penalty is in place then life should mean life

Why? For what purpose? What is the utility?
I've nothing again people being locked away from society for life if rehabilitation fails; but banging someone up and throwing away the key on the basis of one incident with no further assessment of that individual's development? What's the point? What need in us does it serve?

 

[archangel]

I think your prison offer friend is talking a load of bull, either that or he is winding you up and watching you go just to get his jollies

Def not bull as the prison he is based in was shown on television documentary showing the conditions that prisoners are being provided with.....not does he have any reason to lie or concoct stories......I don't think he would be that immature and I don't think that I would be that gullible........and as we have life long friends I would like to think our friendship is stronger than that

 

[Bernie174]

'if no death penalty is in place then life should mean life

It already does. However, you can be considered for parole after you have served a proportion of sentence, if suitable. If not you stay inside irrespective of the minimum recommended sentence. If you are released on parole, any misbehavior and you can be recalled to prison, irrespective of a further charge and conviction. In other words, you never loose that threat hanging over you.

 

[Pookeyhead]

There's also more we can do to prevent certain things happening. We know that there are patterns of behaviour that are indicative of psychopathic behaviour in serial killers for example. Any children known to be unusually cruel to animals for example should be watched carefully and placed on a national register... monitored carefully. Men known to violent against women should be placed on a register too (if they're not already), and also monitored carefully.

We seem to do nothing until it's too late... then just seem to want to kill them as a solution, or bang them up and throw the key away. That's the most archaic and pointless solution I can magine... because they'll keep coming and we'll just keep banging them up... meanwhile, innocent people die. As a solution... it's pretty sh1t don't you think? Would it not be better to actually find out WHY some peopel behave as they do, and find a cure?

 

[viv1969]

I'm neither a psychologist, or a geneticist, so I've no idea what methods would be used. The most appropriate ones.. whatever they turn out to be.

Opt out? No, it would be part of their sentence (as I see it).

So you've changed your mind from simply removing them from society? You seem now to want a little more to be added to a sentence...something a little more Dr Mengele

 

[simon ess]

Oh dear.

That's unworthy of you - isn't it?

 

[Pookeyhead]

So you've changed your mind from simply removing them from society? You seem now to want a little more to be added to a sentence...something a little more Dr Mengele

LOL.. no.. I never said experiment on them.. I said study them. Somewhere in their heads, or their DNA there's a solution as to why some people are violent, and some are not. If we can identify it, and isolate it, then we can treat it like any other illness.


However... even if I was suggesting we experiment on them, how come you'd get squeamish over that? I forget who said what now, but I'm pretty certain you wanted them locked in a 6x6 cell 23.5 hours a day. Hardly humane.

..but no... not experimented upon. Studied to find an answer.

 

[viv1969]

LOL.. no.. I never said experiment on them.. I said study them. Somewhere in their heads, or their DNA there's a solution as to why some people are violent, and some are not. If we can identify it, and isolate it, then we can treat it like any other illness.


However... seeing as you wanted them killed... even if I was suggesting we experiment on them, how come you'd get squeamish over that?

When did I want them dead?

 

[Pookeyhead]

When did I want them dead?

Apologies... wasn't you.. I amended my post, but not fast enough. See above.

 

[viv1969]

Apologies... wasn't you.. I amended my post, but not fast enough. See above.

Amend it again. It still reads as I wanted them killed.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Done

 

[viv1969]

Done

Thank you.
And I'm not in the least bit squeamish about it.
I'm simply a little intrigued by the addition to what you think a sentence should entail.

 

[Pookeyhead]

With all due respect, you seem to be implying something I don't mean. We've already had one member try and insinuate that I'm sympathetic to such miscreants, and now you're suggesting I'm one step removed from Dr Mengele. Seems to be a common reaction to common sense around here.

There's nothing inhumane or sinister in studying such people. You seem to be implying I mean something akin to what happened in German concentration camps, which is ridiculous. They're banged up.. they're going nowhere (unless others in here get their way) so therefore we have a great opportunity to try and work out what makes them tick. Can't do that if we summarily execute them.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Actually Viv.. the more I think about it... the more I think you should apologise for suggesting I advocate performing medical experiments on prisoners.. especially when archangel DID suggest that and no mention was made of it.


I sense some verbal wagon circling in this thread... the villagers are definitely going for their pitchforks.

 

[viv1969]

I suggested no such thing.

I'm neither a psychologist, or a geneticist, so I've no idea what methods would be used. The most appropriate ones.. whatever they turn out to be.

You did that all by yourself.

 

[ghoti]

So you've changed your mind from simply removing them from society? You seem now to want a little more to be added to a sentence...something a little more Dr Mengele

Studying people doesn't mean doing gruesome biological experiments on them. It more often means just asking them questions, finding out how they tick psychologically.

I'd disagree with Pookeyhead insofar as I don't think a simple biological answer will ever be found for these kinds of patterns of behavior, but I think we can close in on the sociological circumstances that make them more or less likely.

 

[viv1969]

Anyone who believes that these people would answer honestly, with full disclosure is naive.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Anyone who believes that these people would answer honestly, with full disclosure is naive.

I wasn't suggesting merely asking them questions (although I wouldn't rule that out). Study their DNA, their brains... CT and MRI scans. I'm sure there's stuff to learn. Why do you seem against it? Would finding an answer to why some people become killers not be a good thing? You against that for some reason? If so, I'd like to hear why.

 

[viv1969]

I wasn't suggesting merely asking them questions (although I wouldn't rule that out). Study their DNA, their brains... CT and MRI scans. I'm sure there's stuff to learn. Why do you seem against it? Would finding an answer to why some people become killers not be a good thing? You against that for some reason? If so, I'd like to hear why.

I'm not against it. As I've said, what intrigues me is your own change of stance. You've gone from saying that a prison term is as punishment not FOR punishment, to saying that inmates should be used as test subjects, even if it's against their will.

It's nigh on impossible to hold a rational debate with someone who alters their opinions like that.

 

[Pookeyhead]

I'm not against it. As I've said, what intrigues me is your own change of stance. You've gone from saying that a prison term is as punishment not FOR punishment, to saying that inmates should be used as test subjects, even if it's against their will.

It's nigh on impossible to hold a rational debate with someone who alters their opinions like that.

There's no change of stance really. I still think life should be life with no chance of parole... no change there. I'm just suggesting they serve some purpose while they are locked up.

 

[Pookeyhead]

You've gone from saying that a prison term is as punishment not FOR punishment, to saying that inmates should be used as test subjects, even if it's against their will.

It's nigh on impossible to hold a rational debate with someone who alters their opinions like that.

Sorry... accidentally posted before I'd finished.

It would hardly be a cruel and unusual punishment to partake in tests that would help move us forward. I'm not suggesting we perform biopsies and operations on them

 

[ghoti]

Anyone who believes that these people would answer honestly, with full disclosure is naive.

If you think it's just about simple yes/no questions and taking everything at face value, that is what would be naive.

Talking of material biology: we have actually already identified one gene variant that seems more common in violent criminals. It's a variant in the MAOI gene. It's also carried by people who are drawn to so-called "extreme sports". It seems to alter response to risk. Although what makes some carriers stab people to death and others do no more than want to ride down mountains very fast on a pedal bike is anyone's guess.

 

[viv1969]

Yes...your position has changed.

He's banged up, and out of harms way: Job done. Who cares what he does, or doesn't do inside, so long as he's doing it inside.

Apparently, you.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Yes...your position has changed.


Apparently, you.

In all honesty, personally, I just want them removed from society so we can be safer, yes. So long as we aren't using their prison sentences to inflict MORE punishment, I'm not really that bothered what happens. As a suggestion, I think we have an opportunity to study them, and I think it may be foolhardy to ignore that. As I'm not a scientist, psychologist, or geneticist, I'm not personally bothered one way or the other, but seeing as people seem hell bent on using the prison sentence to to somehow put them through a continuing penance of some sort, why not make it a useful one? If it was put to me as a suggestion, I'd be in favour of it. Why would anyone not be?


Overall, my position is unchanged in as much as I don't think the prison term itself should be inflicting additional, and continuing punishment. The fact they are locked up IS the punishment. I wouldn't regard co-operating in tests to learn more is a cruel punishment. I'd consider it more a job.. more community service.

 

[viv1969]

Overall, my position is unchanged in as much as I don't think the prison term itself should be inflicting additional, and continuing punishment. The fact they are locked up IS the punishment. I wouldn't regard co-operating in tests to learn more is a cruel punishment. I'd consider it more a job.. more community service.

But putting them in prison currently is simply removing them from the street.
They are not "locked up" as you put it.
They continue to enjoy access to music, television, gym facilities, team sports, even a university education.
I'm not advocating torture, death, withdrawal of healthcare or nutrition; I am simply suggesting that being locked up should mean just that.....locked away. In a cell. Alone. No radio, no TV, no twice weekly movie nights.
Carry out a crime...any crime...and your punishment will be complete loss of liberty and all the social niceties that go along with that.
And yes I mean any crime. The punishment would be the same. The only thing that would differ would be the length of the sentence.
In an ideal world perhaps things could be learned from these people, but ultimately it would be a hugely expensive and pointless exercise. I believe on a voluntary basis you would have a 0% uptake, and if compulsory you would at best have research based on the lies of people whose lives are based on such, and at worse a long list of pending court cases based on the breaching of "human rights".
A prison sentence should continue to be a punishment until the day of release IMO, and should not end as soon as the gate close upon admittance.