How do proffesional motorsport togs get such great shots? I.E quailty etc.

Spurred on by this thread I thought I might try my luck at Brands again tomorrow. The last time I was there it was race day for the BTCC in August 2007 when it was drizzly and overcast, and heaving with people. I don't fancy fighting through the mighty throng again on Sunday so I wonder what people think things will be like on Saturday for practice and qualifying. Any advice welcome :)
 
Will still be heaving, but less so on the Sunday - and some of the good places will be occupied by ITV4 TV crews.


Club level events have spectators in the low hundreds rather than thousands or tens of thousands.
 
Joe T said:
Have you not been to Silverstone then? :lol: :p
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Erm a couple of years back but that place is boring, so no not recently, have you ever been to Brands Hatch recently? that place is just one big fence when on the Indy circuit like they will be tomorrow.
 
Russdaz, would you care to share your secret of how to make the fencing a non-issue for photographers at Brands please?
 
tdodd said:
Russdaz, would you care to share your secret of how to make the fencing a non-issue for photographers at Brands please?
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Mainly focal length, around 300mm plus, and learn to manaully expose otherwise the fence wires will though out the exposure. Lenses with focus limiters are very handy, as it helps prevent the lens attempting to focus on the fence.

Then hay presto, i have this one printed at home in a large print that i used to have on the office wall nest to my pc, i got asked many times where i brought it from.


Hosted on Fotki

or everything, and i mean every shot here was taken through wire fences at the hatch.

http://public.fotki.com/russdaz/dtm-brands-hatch-2008/

Maybe not pro IQ levels, but more then good enough for me.
 
Thanks for the advice and the examples. That's a very nice shot :)

I usually shoot with a 100-400, these days with manual exposure, and pick whatever focal length I need for my composition. I prefer panning shots to head on type angles, to show a sense of motion, with a nice background blur, but unless I can get right up to the fencing (not always easy at the popular spots, or where there is a safety wire set several feet back from the safety fencing) I find it very hard to make the fencing vanish. If I open up the aperture to try to make the fencing disappear my shutter speed is then too fast to capture motion blur.

On a rainy day I want to get closer to the vehicles so the muck in the atmosphere between me and the subject is not so great, so that rules out long distance shooting. If the sun is out and behind my back then the fencing is going to catch the light and spoil the contrast even if I can throw it out of focus.

I'd really rather not have to deal with fences and crowds. They are an annoyance the motorsport media togs simply do not have to endure.

Here are real world examples I could do nothing about (please tell me if you think I could have done something)....

This is at 130mm, f/5, 1/400, 400 ISO. The fencing is plainly visible and the problem is that I could not get close enough to it to make it vanish - far too many people. The focal length was bang on for the composition I wanted, so that wasn't up for grabs and at 130mm and f/5 the lens was probably as wide as it could go in any case. I agree I could have dropped the ISO and the shutter speed a bit but they are really not the cause of the problem here. The people and the fencing are the problem.

2869647971_a7916e188f_o.jpg


Here's another. Different settings, different track, same problem, this time with a safety wire holding the crowd (actually there was no crowd at this point, so it was just me) back from the safety fencing by several feet. It's not perfect, but practice would surely help, but what's the point in practicing if all you'll ever see is fistfuls of fence ruining the shot? This was at 190mm, 100ISO, 1/100, f/16. I didn't want f/16 but needed it to get the shutter speed down. As a consequence the fencing is way too visible, despite the panning, and has destroyed the shot.

2869707453_cea1e3fc7c_o.jpg



Knowing where to stand is not the same thing as being able to stand there :( Knowing how to use your camera to best effect does not automagically make fences disappear :(
 
My advice is go to smaller circuits and club events, sprint's, hillclimbs and rallys etc - I know we all want to do BTCC, WSB and F1, but you just can't get close enough...at the smaller events, I have to find spots back from the crowd line just to bring my 100-300mm into play.

A higher spec body will give you more FPS
Higher spec lenses for IQ
PP is dependant on your initial shot
Luck is the top of the list - right place, right time wins every time!

Oh, and practice, practice, practice!
 
reddeathdrinker said:
A higher spec body will give you more FPS
Higher spec lenses for IQ
PP is dependant on your initial shot
Luck is the top of the list - right place, right time wins every time!

Oh, and practice, practice, practice!
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Couldn't agree more :)

Slight OT (sorry), but is there some sort of definitive listing for all racing events including the smaller ones?
 
MikeeB said:
Yeah but theres certain situations where a shallow DoF would be perfect. Motorsport being one. Focusing on a single car and having the rest of the field OOF is one example. Shooting in low light conditions is another.

The togs at the olympics (off topic I know) had all these f/2.8 or whatever lenses and their images come out razor sharp. It's because they can shoot in these stadiums under low light with their faster glass without having to raise the ISO to ridiculously noisy levels sometimes ;)
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True but for some sports a wider depth of field is need as a car is a lot longer and wider than a basketball player ;) it looks shallow because of the size of the lens they are using but the aperture its self is about f4, 5.6. Most of the Olympic shots were taken at iso3200/6400 most of the time using, even when using f2.8. Their was even some at f4/5.6 which for the length of lens they are using 500/600mm is a shallow depth of field.

http://markjrebilas.com/blog/2008/08/more-volleyball-more-gymnastics/

Matt your shots are fine you just have to keep working at it and wanting to learn and before you know where you are you'll be on the front page of getty images!
 
racedates.net is a useful site to bookmark.

The circuits all have individual website with calendars as well.

or via organising club - VSCC, HSCC, CSCC, 750MC, MGOC, AMOC, BARC, BRSCC etc.,

tsl-timing.co.uk also has dates but also operates a results service for most circuit motorsport in the UK
 
tdodd said:
I'd really rather not have to deal with fences and crowds. They are an annoyance the motorsport media togs simply do not have to endure.
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if only that were true all the time :)

i've had elbows in the balls, people standing on my feet, cameras in the back of the head and people trying to climb over me.. all good fun though. my years of moshing practice to 'killing in the name of', 'cannonball' and 'smells like teen spirit' have come in very handy at some motorsport events :)
 
badgerbaiter said:
if only that were true all the time :)

i've had elbows in the balls, people standing on my feet, cameras in the back of the head and people trying to climb over me.. all good fun though. my years of moshing practice to 'killing in the name of', 'cannonball' and 'smells like teen spirit' have come in very handy at some motorsport events :)
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Fair enough. I'm only commenting based on my own limited experience, observing the luxurious facilities I've seen enjoyed by the pros. Here's an example from Brands, where they have trackside viewing, room for tripods and seating, nobody jostling and a perfectly clear view of the track, not afforded to me.

20070819_105451_LR.jpg


and here is an indication of where I was, standing on tip-toe, no doubt, to try to get a clear view above the heads and brollies....

20070819_105653_LR.jpg


At Silverstone they could have laid out a pic-nic and taken shots between mouthfulls with no obstructions whatsoever.
 
tdodd said:
Here's an example from Brands, where they have trackside viewing, room for tripods and seating, nobody jostling and a perfectly clear view of the track, not afforded to me.

20070819_105451_LR.jpg
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and a good chance of being killed LOL
also, only 2 of them have a clear view. the other two (one is the tv camera man) have other photographers in front of them. from what i remember of that crash most of the good shots were from spectators. anyway, you are right, it is much easier to have a media pass, i'm not saying it isnt :) i'm certainly not complaining :)

(slightly off topic: i never stand there at brands, i cant believe no one has been hit by a car there... yet)
 
Its probably been said.. but I think its more down the the eye of the photographer.. You can have the fastest glass, the highest MP, be the closest to the action.. but whats the point if your just going to get 500 of the same shots.. if you have the ability to think outside the box and get photos that other people dont think of, then I'm sure you would succeed in any form of photography.

Its one of the reasons I love Martin Trenklers work.. Hes a Formula 1 photographer and easily one if not the best in the industry as his photos just capture your eye.

Regards, James
 
andrewc said:
Take up rally photography where seemingly all that protects spectators from carnage is a thin strip of tape and the occassional hedge
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With rallying you most can get as close as you want depending quite on the event and the corner you are at, in the past 10 years they have gotten a hell of a lot tighter on where you can stand on the tarmac rally's at least.

You can still usually get as close as your bravery/stupidity would allow...
IMG_5553.jpg


_MG_3438.jpg


IMG_7138_small.jpg
 
Jamesbuk said:
Its one of the reasons I love Martin Trenklers work.. Hes a Formula 1 photographer and easily one if not the best in the industry as his photos just capture your eye.
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perfect example
this shot of his is all about skill and imagination - not a media pass (although i'm sure he did have one)

08IT-Kovalainen-07.jpg
 
tdodd said:
Thanks for the advice and the examples. That's a very nice shot :)

I usually shoot with a 100-400, these days with manual exposure, and pick whatever focal length I need for my composition. I prefer panning shots to head on type angles, to show a sense of motion, with a nice background blur, but unless I can get right up to the fencing (not always easy at the popular spots, or where there is a safety wire set several feet back from the safety fencing) I find it very hard to make the fencing vanish. If I open up the aperture to try to make the fencing disappear my shutter speed is then too fast to capture motion blur.

On a rainy day I want to get closer to the vehicles so the muck in the atmosphere between me and the subject is not so great, so that rules out long distance shooting. If the sun is out and behind my back then the fencing is going to catch the light and spoil the contrast even if I can throw it out of focus.

I'd really rather not have to deal with fences and crowds. They are an annoyance the motorsport media togs simply do not have to endure.

Here are real world examples I could do nothing about (please tell me if you think I could have done something)....

This is at 130mm, f/5, 1/400, 400 ISO. The fencing is plainly visible and the problem is that I could not get close enough to it to make it vanish - far too many people. The focal length was bang on for the composition I wanted, so that wasn't up for grabs and at 130mm and f/5 the lens was probably as wide as it could go in any case. I agree I could have dropped the ISO and the shutter speed a bit but they are really not the cause of the problem here. The people and the fencing are the problem.

2869647971_a7916e188f_o.jpg


Here's another. Different settings, different track, same problem, this time with a safety wire holding the crowd (actually there was no crowd at this point, so it was just me) back from the safety fencing by several feet. It's not perfect, but practice would surely help, but what's the point in practicing if all you'll ever see is fistfuls of fence ruining the shot? This was at 190mm, 100ISO, 1/100, f/16. I didn't want f/16 but needed it to get the shutter speed down. As a consequence the fencing is way too visible, despite the panning, and has destroyed the shot.

2869707453_cea1e3fc7c_o.jpg



Knowing where to stand is not the same thing as being able to stand there :( Knowing how to use your camera to best effect does not automagically make fences disappear :(
Click to expand...

Simple the cars where to close to the fence at your given focal length, you needed longer, so those shots will never work, so not even worth attempting like that. Just means you need to think a bit more with locations, or shots, like a closer crop. This should also help you get something different from all the countless brain dead lack of imaginative media togs (not all are thoughm there are some good ones here) dont know about any-one else but i get bored seeing the samething week in week out i.e the solo car/bike coming over the top of druids for example.

Which is where one problem with having acreditation where you will be required by media outlet to supply a set type of image, reducing your ability to use your imagination at times.
 
badgerbaiter said:
perfect example
this shot of his is all about skill and imagination - not a media pass (although i'm sure he did have one)

08IT-Kovalainen-07.jpg
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Great shot :thumbs: I remember reading a interview by Bob Martin the brillant british sports photographer. He talk about going to a united game and having a press pass but he still sat in the 3rd row because that was the angle he wanted. Point - just because you have a press pass does not mean you have the best angle and you'll get the best shoots.
 
russdaz said:
Simple the cars where to close to the fence at your given focal length, you needed longer, so those shots will never work, so not even worth attempting like that. Just means you need to think a bit more with locations, or shots, like a closer crop. This should also help you get something different from all the countless brain dead lack of imaginative media togs (not all are thoughm there are some good ones here) dont know about any-one else but i get bored seeing the samething week in week out i.e the solo car/bike coming over the top of druids for example.

Which is where one problem with having acreditation where you will be required by media outlet to supply a set type of image, reducing your ability to use your imagination at times.
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Fair points :)
 
IanH said:
Didn't Nicholson once say (about his golf) " The more I practice, the luckier I get"

Ian.
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Sorry. It was Jack Nicklaus:$:$ I'd had a shandy.
Some superb shots on this thread.
 
Jamesbuk said:
Its one of the reasons I love Martin Trenklers work.. Hes a Formula 1 landlubber and easily one if not the best in the industry as his photos just capture yer eye.s
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badgerbaiter said:
perfect example
this shot of his is all about skill and imagination - not a media pass (although i'm sure he did have one)
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Wow. His gallery should be compulsory viewing for anybody wanting to shoot motorsport. Unreal.
 
Mike Hoyer said:
I can sympathise having done it myself in the past. At the same time there are certain safety aspects and regulations, and you can't really have members of the public wandering around trackside.

Brands is pretty good though I think, admittedly Donington and Silverstone aren't great, but not much better for a pro - my office is based there, and we do a lot of work for the circuit - generally ends up being the same sort of thing all the time!

Try Brands for a smaller race, or Oulton Park, Mallory Park etc.
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I'm surprised there aren't places with better access for those into photography. they could even charge more for access to them. Don't need to have no fences, just controlled access with viewholes or similar.
 
mrklaw - honestly, go to somewhere like Snetterton or Cadwell Park and you won't have any problems with fences. I've got some perfectly clear shots of racing at club level from public access areas at short focal lengths - they're ideal for someone learning and it only costs about £12 to get in - perfect :thumbs:
 
Mallory has some good points, especially at the hairpin, or Castle Coombe is good too
 
not a pro and not read the whole topic, but as a few replies say knowing the locations and having a knowledge helps loads.

having decent equipment is great to. not blowing my own trumpet here but i would say some of mine, and a few others on here (Matt Sayle for one) has taken better shots whan some of the "pro" ones.

its all down to preparation mainly though, knowing circuits as said, corners, settings etc to use, PP has to be last i would say
 
Byker28i said:
Mallory has some good points, especially at the hairpin, or Castle Coombe is good too
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castle coombe isn't too far away. I did ok at thruxton but if you want the chicane you have to get there early before the early birds start leaving chairs on the hill :nono:
 
badgerbaiter said:
perfect example
this shot of his is all about skill and imagination - not a media pass (although i'm sure he did have one)

08IT-Kovalainen-07.jpg
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i was obsessed with that 1/8th shot, and decided to give it a go at the weekend.
could have done with a trail of spray at the back, but i was complaining - it was nice to have some sun!!

main.php
 
whitey said:
not a pro and not read the whole topic, but as a few replies say knowing the locations and having a knowledge helps loads.

having decent equipment is great to. not blowing my own trumpet here but i would say some of mine, and a few others on here (Matt Sayle for one) has taken better shots whan some of the "pro" ones.

its all down to preparation mainly though, knowing circuits as said, corners, settings etc to use, PP has to be last i would say
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THank you very much!!
 
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