How do proffesional motorsport togs get such great shots? I.E quailty etc.

Matt Sayle

Matt Sayle

2017MSA Young Photographer of the Year(Motorsport)
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Matt Sayle
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Obviously it is down to the tog but are there other factors?

The lens, how much of a difference does that make?

Is the camera body an important part which will acheive better shots if ou have a 1D instead of a 400D?

Is it P and P??

Thanks
Matt
 
Personally I think its:

Tog
PP
Lens
Body

Personally I know my images are much more vibrant through my 5D and 300mm L combination than my 400D ever produced, which makes me happy :)
 
Matt
Not an expert, but I would surmise it is a result of many things. Good quality fast lenses, cameras with accurate focusing and metering, technique (probably one of the most important) and weather conditions at the time. As I said, I'm not an experts so will be interested in the responses that you get.
 
barrypriddis said:
I would surmise it is a result of many things. Good quality fast lenses, cameras with accurate focusing and metering, technique (probably one of the most important)
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:agree:

I think it's got to be a combination, but definitely think it's more down to the tog. You could have the best kit in the world, but the user has no idea what to do with it, the images still won't be to a high standard. Professional togs could probably still get awesome shots with cheaper kit, just I imagine it would be a bit harder.
 
Flash In The Pan said:
I think I'd put pp last, the last thing a pro 'tog is going to want to do is spend longer than necessary fixing his images.
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Perhaps, depends if you are submitting all you took in a weekend or a selection I suppose. I agree though I guess, PP can be moved up and down the list.

I put it second as, from my point of view, a quick adjustment of levels and sometimes a small crop can work wonders, most of which I do in Canons DPP whilst reviewing shots so only takes 10 seconds :)
 
Co-operation from the drivers helps - you can plan a shot in your mind but if the drivers don't oblige by overtaking, locking up, falling off, take the correct line it can all come to nothing!
 
Seriously though, the main thing is practice, practice and more practice. Obviously having the best bodies and lenses is a great help, but knowing instinctively what settings to use, where to stand etc. is invaluable, and that mainly comes from lots of practice, and trial and error.

Getting advice from someone with a lot of experience is helpful too, especially when you have to shoot more than race action. I mean, you might've got panning down to a fine art, know where all the best corners and spots are at every circuit in the world, but then you might get thrown something different like a group photo or some portraits or whatever. If you've not done it before a bit of advice can go a long way.

But yeah, practice as much as possible, that's what I did, and still learning!
 
The biggest difference is that the pros don't have to shoot from miles away through a load of safety fencing and the backs of people's heads.
 
Wouldn't agree with you on that.

Having a press pass helps, but there's plenty of people who have got a press pass through whatever means, and don't produce astounding pictures.
 
OK, it's the biggest difference for me. How can I compete with someone with a press pass when I don't have one? It doesn't matter how good I am, or my equipment, if I can't get a decent angle of view and a clear line of sight onto the subject.

The shot is only as good as the weakest link, whether that's the tog, the equipment or the access. In my case the access is the biggest problem (IMHO).
 
TBH I don't shoot much motorsport because I'm always on the wrong side of the fence and, while I'm interested in photography, I am not especially interested in motorsport. To date I have shot at Brands Hatch a couple of times and at Donington and Silverstone once each. At Donington I did not have suitable equipment, being a newbie to the DSLR world at the time (two years ago) and only having a 17-85 lens and very little clue. Silverstone is a complete joke for the amateur tog, because of the fencing. You can maybe get an OK vantage point at Brands but I've only been to well attended events and the crowd push is a bit of a struggle.

I'm sure that once the "access" weak point was removed a different weak point would be revealed, and I'm quite sure that weak point would be me. But right now there is just no fun in photographing motorsport because the access is so poor.

Here's one from Brands and one from Silverstone, both with my 100-400 lens at full stretch..

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I know neither is great, especially the centred composition on the second shot, but a crop would fix that. The thing is, if 400mm on a crop body is not enough to fill the frame, or close to it, then I either need longer glass (yeah, right) or to be closer to the action and without stupid fencing ruining sharpness and contrast.

The thing is, how do you stop down to slow the shutter and get some panning blur, while at the same time opening up to throw the fencing out of focus? I guess an ND filter would help but I don't have one.
 
I can sympathise having done it myself in the past. At the same time there are certain safety aspects and regulations, and you can't really have members of the public wandering around trackside.

Brands is pretty good though I think, admittedly Donington and Silverstone aren't great, but not much better for a pro - my office is based there, and we do a lot of work for the circuit - generally ends up being the same sort of thing all the time!

Try Brands for a smaller race, or Oulton Park, Mallory Park etc.
 
Poor access - to some extent yes, but...

For the amateur 'tog the best races are the club level races - they're the cheapest to get access to, the least well attended by the public and try to pack the most races into the day. Nothing pretentious - no grid walks, not celebrities - just racing.

As the crowds are non-existent you get the best photography spots without the hustle and bustle of the top events which are jam packed.

Cadwell Park, Snetterton, Brands Hatch, Mallory Park, Anglesey, Oulton Park, Castle Combe all have plenty of great shooting locations without much catch fencing or requiring mammoth lenses.

There are other forms of motorsport which give you good access - Motorcross / Enduro for one.
 
I'd say it goes like this:

1) Know your subject inside & out so you know when to press the button and where to be when you press it.
2) Get excellent access to get close and able to position yourself for the best background to the shot.
3) Know your kit inside & out so you know how to press the button and what the result will be once you've done so.
4) Have a very good fast camera (fast in terms of focus, handling, frame rate) to give yourself the best chance of nailing the shot
5) Have the best & fastest lenses you can get.
6) Do all that and your post processing requirements will be minimal.
7) Be patient.
8) Be imaginative and get the shot nobody else is getting.
 
Thanks for the posts everyone. Was just wondering if I would ever produce results like Mikes, Garys et al with my kit after another year of practice or wether I iwll need a new lens etc to get them results after my practicing.
 
Stick with what you've got for now. It's more about having an eye for what works. I shouldn't worry too much, I started out much the same, and you've got a few years advantage on me...
 
Mike Hoyer said:
Stick with what you've got for now. It's more about having an eye for what works. I shouldn't worry too much, I started out much the same, and you've got a few years advantage on me...
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I want planning to upgrade until at least January 2010. As then i should get trackside. Well, if I get a few more punlications under my belt ;)
 
The lens has a lot to do with it, imagine looking into dirty glasses or scratched glasses will you see well? Same goes for lens. The body depends on what you photograph imho. People say a good photographer will get good shots with any camera I agree with that to an extend. If you take your shots out side in good light or in studio with flash, to me iso100 is iso100 on a camera. If you take shots indoors and its something you need a fast shutter speed for i.e. sports then the iso goes up and the noise goes up and the newer cameras are better at handling noise than older models. AF as well can come into it for stuff like motor sports you can pre focus (depending on the shot) which kind of takes away the need for AF. A sport like football is different because of the un expectable nature of the sport.
 
Ally said:
The lens has a lot to do with it, imagine looking into dirty glasses or scratched glasses will you see well? Same goes for lens. The body depends on what you photograph imho. People say a good photographer will get good shots with any camera I agree with that to an extend. If you take your shots out side in good light or in studio with flash, to me iso100 is iso100 on a camera. If you take shots indoors and its something you need a fast shutter speed for i.e. sports then the iso goes up and the noise goes up and the newer cameras are better at handling noise than older models. AF as well can come into it for stuff like motor sports you can pre focus (depending on the shot) which kind of takes away the need for AF. A sport like football is different because of the un expectable nature of the sport.
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All valid points.
 
Surely faster lenses help alot somewhat. I know several moments when I wish I had more f/2.8 and f/1.8 lenses.
 
MikeeB said:
Surely faster lenses help alot somewhat. I know several moments when I wish I had more f/2.8 and f/1.8 lenses.
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You've got to remember the depth of field that comes with that as well? I remember when I first got my 50 1.4 I thought great shooting at 1.4 I'll get plenty of light and such a fast shutter speed and I did and I wondered why the images were soft? the depth of field was that thin that it was pritty much a hair in focus, the same at 1.8 until I found that 2,2.2 was about right.
 
Yeah but theres certain situations where a shallow DoF would be perfect. Motorsport being one. Focusing on a single car and having the rest of the field OOF is one example. Shooting in low light conditions is another.

The togs at the olympics (off topic I know) had all these f/2.8 or whatever lenses and their images come out razor sharp. It's because they can shoot in these stadiums under low light with their faster glass without having to raise the ISO to ridiculously noisy levels sometimes ;)
 
I'm not sure about the XX0D series but certainly on the X0D series the faster glass helps focussing, a lot. I'm sure PP doesn't really come into it much at all with sports stuff. (FWIW are people shooting motorsport in JPG or RAW?).

On another note - Matt, you are already producing some great images and the dedication you are showing means that you are only going to get better!!!
 
andrewc said:
Co-operation from the drivers helps - you can plan a shot in your mind but if the drivers don't oblige by overtaking, locking up, falling off, take the correct line it can all come to nothing!
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Nobody has mentioned luck yet :D, unless you're on crashers corner or happen to hit the button during the backfire then it doesn't matter how much you spend on the kit you'll just get the same shots as everbody else.




(ignoring correct use of long lenses / skill in panning / use of kit / height / stepladders :lol:)
 
Luck is true, although most circuits have known incident corners/places so you can increase your 'luck' through clever positioning. It really helps to know a circuit.
 
The photographer makes the biggest difference, knowing where to stand, what settings to use to get the effect etc etc, a good tog will get very good images where ever under any conditions, from either side of the fence. Personally i do not see fences as an issue.

Faster lenses focus faster this means a greater hit rate, but you still need to know how to get the most of the lens, a £5,000 lens wont get the shots if you havent a clue what your after.

Better camera body's again increase you hit rate, and mean you can do things that a cheaper body may not be able to, but again it still needs a good operator to get the most from it.

PP can only make a good shot better, and make poor shot poor'er

You can have £20,000 of gear with every media accred going but if you havent any idea how to use it (and there are some 'pro's' around that havent a clue) then all your going to turn out is poo.
 
Byker28i said:
Luck is true, although most circuits have known incident corners/places so you can increase your 'luck' through clever positioning. It really helps to know a circuit.
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Technique & circuit knowledge take you 90%, the last 10% is Lady Luck (is she a member on TPF :thinking:).

Many times I've been at "The Place" with "The Settings" , panning on the car that has locked up only to find it's the one following that has done the interesting stuff :bang:.


If the Canon "L" stood for luck I'd buy the range :D
 
russdaz said:
The photographer makes the biggest difference, knowing where to stand, what settings to use to get the effect etc etc, a good tog will get very good images where ever under any conditions, from either side of the fence. Personally i do not see fences as an issue.

Faster lenses focus faster this means a greater hit rate, but you still need to know how to get the most of the lens, a £5,000 lens wont get the shots if you havent a clue what your after.

Better camera body's again increase you hit rate, and mean you can do things that a cheaper body may not be able to, but again it still needs a good operator to get the most from it.

PP can only make a good shot better, and make poor shot poor'er

You can have £20,000 of gear with every media accred going but if you havent any idea how to use it (and there are some 'pro's' around that havent a clue) then all your going to turn out is poo.
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THat is very true.

mrgubby said:
Technique & circuit knowledge take you 90%, the last 10% is Lady Luck (is she a member on TPF :thinking:).

Many times I've been at "The Place" with "The Settings" , panning on the car that has locked up only to find it's the one following that has done the interesting stuff :bang:.


If the Canon "L" stood for luck I'd buy the range :D
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I know Oulton fairly well so I know where to stand but then again I wasnt stood at Cascades waiting for a Lotus Elan to come through minus a wheel so yeah, luck does play a major part :)
 
Technique (including local knowledge - where's the action likely to happen etc)
Access
Lenses
Bodies
and PP a very distant last.

There's some luck involved as well, although the better photographers (like the better drivers) tend to have the most luck...
 
Nod said:
Technique (including local knowledge - where's the action likely to happen etc)
Access
Lenses
Bodies
and PP a very distant last.

There's some luck involved as well, although the better photographers (like the better drivers) tend to have the most luck...
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Didn't Nicholson once say (about his golf) " The more I practice, the luckier I get"

Ian.
 
Mike Hoyer said:
Wouldn't agree with you on that.

Having a press pass helps, but there's plenty of people who have got a press pass through whatever means, and don't produce astounding pictures.
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couldnt agree more.

i can tell you that a very experienced pro with a Sony Cybershot and no press pass would produce better shots than a newby with a 1d mk3, all the lenses and the best press pass.

equipment does help, but at the end of the day its much easier to buy the best equipment than it is to get experience or imagination.

although getting my 1d mk2n and lenses stolen a year ago was not the best thing that ever happened to me in my life i can say (IMHO) that i am now producing vastly superior photos with a 30d and 70-200mm than i ever was with the pro stuff.

i dont know if mike went through the same thing but i fell into the trap when i first started of thinking my photos were crap and that they would be brilliant if only i had the best equipment. So i kept getting better equipment any way i could and it wasnt making a blind bit of difference. I soon learned that its all about experience, skill and imagination.

So, Matt, dont fall into the trap of spending loads of money on better equipment (especially if you have to borrow the money) . Just keep thinking and keep trying new stuff. And dont even bother using photoshop until your good enough not to need it.

disclaimer: i am by no means saying i am perfect! if i thought it was i would have given up now because it would be boring
 
badgerbaiter said:
couldnt agree more.

i can tell you that a very experienced pro with a Sony Cybershot and no press pass would produce better shots than a newby with a 1d mk3, all the lenses and the best press pass.

equipment does help, but at the end of the day its much easier to buy the best equipment than it is to get experience or imagination.

although getting my 1d mk2n and lenses stolen a year ago was not the best thing that ever happened to me in my life i can say (IMHO) that i am now producing vastly superior photos with a 30d and 70-200mm than i ever was with the pro stuff.

i dont know if mike went through the same thing but i fell into the trap when i first started of thinking my photos were crap and that they would be brilliant if only i had the best equipment. So i kept getting better equipment any way i could and it wasnt making a blind bit of difference. I soon learned that its all about experience, skill and imagination.

So, Matt, dont fall into the trap of spending loads of money on better equipment (especially if you have to borrow the money) . Just keep thinking and keep trying new stuff. And dont even bother using photoshop until your good enough not to need it.
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Wasnt palnning on upgrading just asking really. My plan is to upgrade in 2010 when I, hopefully, get the right side of the fence. Also if I am using good equipment, not top class, it makes me feel better when I get a top shot :)

Oh and i havnt got a clue how to use photoshop.
 
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