How Creative are you..............Really?

I know what you mean - coniston was similar .. or at least it was untill the well driving rig turned up and started driving a boreholefor the farm next door to brantwood - that reduced the ambience somewhat

I saw from your 52 you were up there, some nice relfections (always a favourite of mine, they just make me so relaxed, you can feel total stillness when the water is still, and thats a great feeling).

Coniston is great, I camped down there yonks ago. Happy memories. Lake district is on my radar once I am mobile ;)
 
But what would it be saying? Any more than a few words to set a scene and you might as well start with "it was a dark and stormy night"....

I think we are making the same point - a photo doesnt need to say anything to be a good photo (or the impact it has on our senses cannot be expresed in mere words - hows that for arty b*****ks)
 
My issue with a lot of 'creative' capturing of abstract, is that often it requires 3 or 4 pages of pretentious waffle to explain why the picture captures x concept - and imo if it requires that much explanation it hasnt essentialy captured anything - a picture is supposed to speak 1000 words, not require 1000 words to explain its greater meaning


Biggest myth ever. Any picture can speak any words.. depending on the viewer's context. It way well speak a completely different set of words to the ones you read from it. Photographic meaning is not fixed.

This idea that if you need to add text to an image, it's a crap image is just so incredibly wrong it beggars belief.

Suggested reading:

Barthes,R. - The Death of the Author
Sekula, A - On the Invention of Photographic Meaning (appearing in Burgin,V. - Thinking Photography, chapter 4).
 
I'm not in any way artistically educated, but I've come to realise that visual arts can be as much about ideas as aesthetics. In fact the same could be said about any art, music for example. There's a place for both the insubstantial x-factor chart pop and 'chocolate box' landscapes (for lack of a better expression) and for the more challenging, idea led, if somewhat impenetrable art, photography and music that is more niche. And of course for everything else in between, which I suppose is what most on this forum practice.
 
Because I wanted to. I thought it was pretty and would look nice (to me).

Because it captures the memory of somewhere I was and I wished to remember it long after. Because I can show it to people who weren't there and they can see it.

Because I loved being there and it captured the feeling and splendour of the place.

Because I enjoy taking pictures.

Not every deep and insightful, but its just the person I am.
That's the 'art' to me
So I disagree with David here...
The same reasons tourists take snapshots then. So what differentiates yours from theirs if not just technicalities? So with that in mind, is your image worth any more than the guy who came along to that same spot 10 minutes later and took the same image on a iPhone?
A snapshot by a tourist would be to simply record the scene before them, for posterity, or just to add to the collection of 'things we saw'.
Steve visualised an idea which had an element of creativity (the amount of that creativity varies between completely original to complete plagiarism), then used technical skill to record it.

The fact photographers only like to consider the technical is rather sad, but it doesn't diminish the creative entirely (even if they seem happier doing so).

There's nothing 'creative' about tapping on a keyboard, putting pen to paper, painting or sculpting, writing dots on a stave or any other medium people choose to express themselves. But many photographers see other 'art forms' as intrinsically more artistic, which is hilarious to me. Why are people scared to discuss their work from a creative perspective?
Man up and you might realise you've been stifling your own talent by hiding your creativity behind your pursuit of the technical.
 
But many photographers see other 'art forms' as intrinsically more artistic, which is hilarious to me. Why are people scared to discuss their work from a creative perspective?.

Fear: Fear of failure, and fear of criticism... probably.
 
And because it's not easy, especially if you've not been to art college and been subject to critique sessions or being asked to discuss your work. I've struggled to articulate what my work is about in the past although, I've become better at it of late through necessity.

It's far easier to talk about tangible stuff like canon vs Nikon but less interesting.....
 
And because it's not easy, especially if you've not been to art college and been subject to critique sessions or being asked to discuss your work. I've struggled to articulate what my work is about in the past although, I've become better at it of late through necessity.

It's far easier to talk about tangible stuff like canon vs Nikon but less interesting.....


That's what I meant. I wasn't being arsy... as in calling people cowards. I mean it... it's fear. See it all the time in students. Absolute panic when it comes to showing their work in crit. Worse still if they're expected to actually talk about it.. explain it. This is why people are also scared of GIVING crit... they feel they'll be shattering someone's confidence if they say anything negative. It takes ages to get people to adjust to an environment like that. That's why beginners say "Be nice... I'm only an amateur/beginner/been doing it for "x" long. I'm not sure how you be "nice" about it.. you just be honest, but supportive.. No one in here will just go "That's sh1t" and leave it at that... but being critical is essential to improve... and it's HARD for some people. Coddling them is not actually helping though. You give balanced crit. But if someone;s work is poor, they will benefit from knowing it more than from being sheltered from the fact. Not easy to take crit.. not easy to give it... which is why you get so much "I love that" feedback... which is much use as a chocolate fire guard.
 
Last edited:
That's what I meant. I wasn't being arsy... as in calling people cowards. I mean it... it's fear. See it all the time in students. Absolute panic when it comes to showing their work in crit. Worse still if they're expected to actually talk about it.. explain it. This is why people are also scared of GIVING crit... they feel they'll be shattering someone's confidence if they say anything negative. It takes ages to get people to adjust to an environment like that. That's why beginners say "Be nice... I'm only an amateur/beginner/been doing it for "x" long. I'm not sure how you be "nice" about it.. you just be honest, but supportive.. No one in here will just go "That's sh1t" and leave it at that... but being critical is essential to improve... and it's HARD for some people. Coddling them is not actually helping though. You give balanced crit. But if someone;s work is poor, they will benefit from knowing it more than from being sheltered from the fact. Not easy to take crit.. not easy to give it... which is why you get so much "I love that" feedback... which is much use as a chocolate fire guard.

Fully agree. That's one of the things I got from the few years I spent in a camera club, critique from some of the better judges. Ok, that environment is hardly a bastion of cutting edge creativity, and some judges were stuck in the Stone Age, but having someone with a degree of knowledge and experience assess your work helped me a lot.
But apprehension was something I felt when I was writing the accompanying text for my exhibitions. How to articulate what I wanted to say without it sounding either over simplistic or a load of pretentious nonsense was hard, and I'm not sure I've nailed it yet.
 
But genuine critique is hard too, which is why critique threads seesaw between 'nice shot' and 'it's not sharp' as if the polar opposites in photography are nice and fuzzy.
 
Yep... there's a kind of "practice your crit" thread in here somewhere... people should have a go.

Just remember... saying "That's nice" is just as useless as "That's sh1t". One will make the author of the image feel better, sure... but they're equally as useless.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Yv
I put an example in that thread of what I felt was an exemplar written crit. I know it seems to rub certain people up the wrong way when I say I know what I'm talking about... but I've got a lot of experience with crit, and I put an example of a fairly in depth crit... the kind I'd give after spending a good amount of time weighing an image up, considering options and thinking critically about the image. It's far more in depth than I'd usually give via typing.... and is more representative of how I'd give crit face to face.

Giving good crit takes a lot of practice and time... and the internet is actually a pretty poor platform for it.
 
Worse still if they're expected to actually talk about it.. explain it.

Nothing I like better than talking b*****ks, so if anyone's interested I'll start a thread tomorrow having a go at that in relation to how I developed a project. :D
 
That's what I meant. I wasn't being arsy... as in calling people cowards. I mean it... it's fear. See it all the time in students. Absolute panic when it comes to showing their work in crit. Worse still if they're expected to actually talk about it.. explain it. This is why people are also scared of GIVING crit... they feel they'll be shattering someone's confidence if they say anything negative. It takes ages to get people to adjust to an environment like that. That's why beginners say "Be nice... I'm only an amateur/beginner/been doing it for "x" long. I'm not sure how you be "nice" about it.. you just be honest, but supportive.. No one in here will just go "That's sh1t" and leave it at that... but being critical is essential to improve... and it's HARD for some people. Coddling them is not actually helping though. You give balanced crit. But if someone;s work is poor, they will benefit from knowing it more than from being sheltered from the fact. Not easy to take crit.. not easy to give it... which is why you get so much "I love that" feedback... which is much use as a chocolate fire guard.


A question to you David and others that have been in photography or art generally amongst peers a long time and looked at the history of individuals, because as you can imagine, this is a topic that crops up in the staff room a LOT! Usually because someone has offered no nonsense critique [technical or artistic] and someone else feels offended by it, sometimes the OP, more often someone else, which really galls, the whole being offended on someone else's behalf. How much of the nice shot effect and fear of discussing your own work critically is a recent thing, how much is a flickr/facebook generational thing, or has it always been the case? In photographic terms, the digital age has seen an explosion of images available to wide audience, so is it simply the same as it ever was just in greater overall numbers but with roughly the same level of fear, or has that fear increased dramatically [as a ratio, percentage, whatever] with the access to a wider audience?
 
If I could just but in briefly, Yv, the arena is different nowadays in that the explosion of availability (of images) is partnered by a lack of human immediacy - messages on-line are accompanied by no facial expression or body language.

We (generally, as the posters on here), may start to get a sense of each other over time that balances what might be said, but the informality of a place like this coupled with the invisibility of the participants could be challenging to a novice. So should we pull our punches? No - we should just try to judge them better.

Yes it's the same, but not the same. The context is different. It's more widespread and more immediate in some ways, whilst more remote and detached in others. But I'd guess that the fear is magnified numerically (by greater participation) rather than in essence.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Yv
We (generally, as the posters on here), may start to get a sense of each other over time that balances what might be said, but the informality of a place like this coupled with the invisibility of the participants could be challenging to a novice. So should we pull our punches? No - we should just try to judge them better.

Yes, and whatever we say we can say with a degree of politeness and at least a hint of humility but too often on line I think that instead of polite opinion we get low level poking, points scoring and apparent arrogance and whilst we can move away from that in the real world on line it's a little harder to avoid as any objectionable soul can be objectionable in thread after thread.

I'm not particularly interested in any critique of my pictures. I shoot for my own enjoyment and I care what my family and friends think and if some random bloke on line doesn't like a shot I'm not going to collapse in tears but others may care more and I personally see no reason to risk offending or upsetting needlessly.

Maybe I'd be less disappointed if I'd read this thread on DPreview. Funny how a thread goes.
 
A question to you David and others that have been in photography or art generally amongst peers a long time and looked at the history of individuals, because as you can imagine, this is a topic that crops up in the staff room a LOT! Usually because someone has offered no nonsense critique [technical or artistic] and someone else feels offended by it, sometimes the OP, more often someone else, which really galls, the whole being offended on someone else's behalf

LOL... yep... people rush to the aid of someone else... usually not through altruism or empathy, but because they see an opportunity to gain succour and support against someone they don't like. Either that, or people get upset if you also offer crit on an image that disagrees with theirs, then start arguing with you in someone else's thread. Just politics Yvonne. The OP often gets upset... yes, but sometimes upset and confrontational.


. How much of the nice shot effect and fear of discussing your own work critically is a recent thing, how much is a flickr/facebook generational thing, or has it always been the case?

I think it's worse, because it's online and easier to be confrontational, but I think it's mainly because people get so many useless "Wow.. awesome" comments from the general public, they really do get a distorted opinion of their own work, and get used to the same meaningless, but supportive comments. When they get someone questioning it, they assume you're wrong. Weird behaviour if you ask me: If I get told by all my mates that my headaches are nothing to worry about, but one person who happens to be a doctor tells me I really need to worry and should go for a scan, I wouldn't argue.. would you? That's what happens in here... not only that, but then you get accused of being arrogant just for being a Doctor... like I should be humble, show humility and not mention that I'm a doctor. In real life.. that would be weird right? Someone falls over..."Make way.. let me through, I'm a Doctor"... you wouldn't say in reply.."Oh really? Who do you think you are, coming in here, being arrogant, letting everyone know you're a doctor". However... "I know a thing or two about this, as this is what I do for a living" is pretty much read as "LOOK AT ME I@M BRILLIANT" by people.

Amateur photography, to many, is just a competitive sport and such behaviour is seen as a chellenge, and they are fiercely competitive in return. Even the armchair photographers get competitive regarding how much they know. I must admit I've trolled a few threads just to see how far they'll go in order to "win". Not proud of it... but consider it research :)

I've noticed a great increase in people who don't actually care about the work, so long as they get the positive feedback. Deny them the positive feedback and they won't thank you for pointing out how the work can be improved. If you're the only person criticising in a thread full of "Great shot" feedback, you're clearly wrong. Not that I ever think I'm right, but the point of crit is to present your opinion and thoughts, and then let the OP decide from the feedback given what makes sense and what does not. What happens though, is that person A) gives a reading, then person B) says "Not sure I agree with that... I think what person A suggested would result in [insert alternative opinion here], only to have person A then retaliate against person B because person A feels undermined, and from then on the OP is forgotten entirely and it becomes a competition between A and B rather than a forum to give differing opinions for the OP's benefit.

The next problem is that, in my opinion [yes.. we all need to say this too... it indemnifies us against being called arrogant LOL] many don't know how to crit. Like @phill V said further up the thread, this is why you get this "Nice shot", or "Lovely and sharp"... or "Focus is a bit off" stuff going on. I's as if nothing else matters: Do you like it, and is it sharp. There's a genuine disbelief that critical matters such as what the image is saying, and how it says it is not important, and to discuss such things is snobbish, or worse still, arty-farty b******s. Best example is a while back now. Some shot of a woman in a leather mini-skirt and fishnets in a "grungy" urban setting. When I asked whether having her look like a prostitute was intention or not, I get accused of being rude, and the usual suspects come out with "Is this how you treat your students".. LOL You mean would I question whether your fashion shot looks like a cheap glamour shot that objectifies women, and was that your intention? Damned right I would, because if that person had published that anywhere else he'd be at best laughed at, or at worst, labelled a misogynistic, sexist knob... it was in HIS interest to hear that crit. What happened though, is that the usual anti-art crowd steamed in, reassured him that his lads mag soft porn was in fact brilliant (which it was TECHNICALLY), and basically edged me out of the picture with the usual "great attitude for a teacher"... as if all teachers have to do is hold your hand and say nice things. At the end of the day, if he actually wanted the shot to be a cheap, titillating glamour shot, all he had to do was say so. Because it was technically good though, that's all that mattered to most and my crit was seen as arty b******s.

This is what happens when you reduce photography to a mere technical exercise, and only judge it by how good it is technically. It's dangerous.

In photographic terms, the digital age has seen an explosion of images available to wide audience, so is it simply the same as it ever was just in greater overall numbers but with roughly the same level of fear, or has that fear increased dramatically [as a ratio, percentage, whatever] with the access to a wider audience?

It's changed in many ways. Photography has been democratised by the internet and social media, and now everyone is a photographer. With that comes the main source of feedback is the public, and the feedback is solely based on whether they "like" it or not, and this is now the measure of whether something is good or not. It causes a dissonance between what they thought was crit and what they finally receive when the work is in front of an experienced photographer who realises that whether you LIKE it or not is almost irrelevant. They suddenly feel very out of their comfort zone, and this does cause fear and anxiety yes.. it's suddenly quite fearful as it's new. Some react well to this, seeing it as a fresh exciting way of improving their work... some see it as a thread to the constant stream of "likes" they've got used to receiving.

None of this happens face to face in a crit session. First.. I think if someone has paid for the privileged to to go uni, or has paid to go to a professional portfolio review given by a professional of standing, then they are more open to the idea that the person in front of them actually knows what they're on about. Online... anyone who challenges anything with any sense of authority is treated very badly.

Crit should be dispassionate, matter of fact. It should stick to the facts. It should be balanced where possible, and any comments should be explained. So.. nothing wrong with saying you like it, but you have to say WHY you like it, and that explanation should be critical and make sense to the OP... there has to be an outcome.. something the OP can go away and consider or practice, or at least think about seriously.

I'm not particularly interested in any critique of my pictures. I shoot for my own enjoyment and I care what my family and friends think and if some random bloke on line doesn't like a shot I'm not going to collapse in tears but others may care more and I personally see no reason to risk offending or upsetting needlessly.

Then why are you interested in giving crit on the work of others if you've no interest in receiving it yourself?

What constitutes "offending or upsetting" in your book?


Disclaimer: This is how I see it based on experience of comparing face to face crit with online crit, and comparing amateur crit with professional crit. No egos have been harmed in the making of this post. :)
 
@Pookeyhead - many thanks for taking the time to post that, I found it most helpful and informative. It is good to hear that people care about what an image is trying to convey as well as it's technical quality
 
Now David has had his eloquent say I'll chip in.

Nobody likes to have their work criticised negatively, but it is easier to take if you have learned/been taught to self-criticise, to judge if you are achieving what you set out to achieve, even to set out to achieve something in the first place. This isn't something which I think is part of mainstream education - except being told that your sums are wrong!

Equally, if you do have had a background where your work was criticised by tutors and peers it is difficult to seek criticism from a mass of people on the internet with varying degrees of knowledge/experience or from some who you have come to realise simply haven't got a clue. You are used to knowing what values your critics are applying to your work, which are likely to be broadly similar to your own.

Then again, a point David has raised before, is that people post pictures for feedback without providing any explanation. Maybe they don't have an explanation for their phots but took them simply because they thought they looked nice?

Anyway, with that in mind I'll go and make the post about some of my pics over in the creative forum - mainly because I'm not sure where else they might fit!
 
Last edited:
Yes, and whatever we say we can say with a degree of politeness and at least a hint of humility but too often on line I think that instead of polite opinion we get low level poking, points scoring and apparent arrogance and whilst we can move away from that in the real world on line it's a little harder to avoid as any objectionable soul can be objectionable in thread after thread.

Ah, but therein lies the problem!! Droj and Pookey have also alluded to it - in the 'faceless' world of the internet, one persons "degree of politeness and at least a hint of humility" is another persons blunt and arrogant and yet another persons 'way too sugar coated to be valid'. With no facial expression, tone of voice or body language to go by, what I might consider to be straightforward and fair critique, you might consider to be bloody rude - how do you counteract that? It is fairly obvious to most of us that 'nice shot' or 'that's crap' as comments are both equally useless if the point is to help someone improve - everything else between the two is a grey area that will be read differently by different people.

@Pookeyhead Thankyou, there are several sentence in that answer I would quite like to post as huge announcements at the top of every photo sharing section ;) [if the software would only let us]

@droj Yes, valid points too.
 
Then again, a point David has raised before, is that people post pictures for feedback without providing any explanation. Maybe they don't have an explanation for their phots but took them simply because they thought they looked nice?

This, this, and this again!!
 
I think Yv hit on a point - the 'facebook' generation, used to clicking 'like', so produce similar short comments, i.e. thats nice.

I think my further education has helped enormously with my critique for others. I try to provide the same sort of feedback I get from my tutors.
 
Suggested reading:

Barthes,R. - The Death of the Author
Sekula, A - On the Invention of Photographic Meaning (appearing in Burgin,V. - Thinking Photography, chapter 4).


I wonder if anyone read the Sekula Article:
http://monoskop.org/images/0/0d/Sekula_Allan_1975_1981_On_the_Invention_of_Photographic_Meaning.pdf


Sekula in his article discusses the image as a means of exchanging information, engaging both the photographer and viewer, he talks about how our cultural differences affect the image both produced and read, the information is the outcome of a culturally determined relationship.

Because of these cultural differences , we can no longer ascribe an intrinsic or universal meaning to the photographic image. I undertook an exercise where I posted family photos, including some old ones and asked people to describe what they were seeing. There were some interesting interpretations and of course some real historical insights.

Sekula states that photographic literacy is learned, and yet in the real world the image appears natural and appropriate. This immediately makes me think of student visits, the insights and thoughts of other students and staff that lead you into different meanings of the images presented.

He then states, If we accept the fundamental premise that information is the outcome of a culturally determined relationship, then we can no longer ascribe an intrinsic or universal meaning to the photographic image.

Whilst I agree that the photographer affects the outcome of the image, and can influence the exchange of information within that image, more so if a description is added, is it so wrong, just occasionally to look at a photo of say, a sunset and just say, ‘nice image’?

Bazin said: “For the first time, between the originating object and its reproduction there intervenes only the instrumentality of a non living agent. For the first time an image of the world is formed automatically, without the creative intervention of man… in spite of any objections our critical spirit may offer, we are forced to accept as real the existence of the object reproduced, actually, re-presented…”

Several news agencies want straight, untouched images to portray just the truth, so Bazins argument fits there, at times the story is just told in a simple image, that moment captured, but there must have been creative input, the angle, the crop, the timing. Photography can be used in so many other ways, telling stories, passing information, selling, affecting moods etc so I prefer Sekula's interpretation.
 
It's frustrating, when one posts picture with a theme and asks for comments on that theme, the only posts you get is "I like 7 and 8". :p
 
Whilst I agree that the photographer affects the outcome of the image, and can influence the exchange of information within that image, more so if a description is added, is it so wrong, just occasionally to look at a photo of say, a sunset and just say, ‘nice image’?
There is nothing wrong with liking an image just because you like it, as has been said many times on this and other similar threads. But is is not a critique. Unfortunately people often ask for a critique when what they want is to know is whether people like it or not, which as David has stated very articulately is a very different thing. And this is what often causes an issue, when someone does post a genuine critique, those who do "like it" feel it is an attack on their judgement.
 

I'm glad you read that. The sad thing is, only those who already appreciate what the essay is saying will have read it most likely. Those that don't will have already dismissed it, and probably can't be arsed. I'd be happy to be proved wrong here though.



Sekula in his article discusses the image as a means of exchanging information, engaging both the photographer and viewer, he talks about how our cultural differences affect the image both produced and read, the information is the outcome of a culturally determined relationship.

The problem with academic books I think is the language used. It's seen as a barrier to accessibility. I just wish people would take that initial first, hard step to push through that barrier. That essay is actually a very good read once you realise that the academic language is just that... different words. All arenas use their own lexicon.. Legal, medical, scientific, biology... all of it seems like a barrier to understanding to those not used to it, but if we all had this attitude, we'd not seek out knowledge and learn things unless it's given to us in a dumbed down, easily digestible way. Why should books do that? These are complex suggestions, theories and ideas, so they require complex language to adequately explain them. If you don't know a word... don't cry about it... just look it up :) The good thing with doing that, is that studies have shown that those that seek out the meanings of an unknown word by looking it up, rather than waiting to have it explained to them are FAR more likely to remember that word's meaning and have larger more expansive vocabularies as a result.



Whilst I agree that the photographer affects the outcome of the image, and can influence the exchange of information within that image, more so if a description is added, is it so wrong, just occasionally to look at a photo of say, a sunset and just say, ‘nice image’?

Not at all. However, you'd be saying that because there's nothing else to say. Literally just a sunset shot.. what is there to say? Sure... there's beauty, and the sunset is inspiring... sublime even, but If there's nothing in the image except a sunset, then it seems pointless in a crit session to just talk about the beauty of the sunset, because it's obvious. Everyone around the table will agree that the sunset is beautiful. There's nothing left to debate except the technical. The fact that the photograph is essentially empty of communicated meaning [other than the beauty of the sunset] is however the photographers fault, and not a result of cultural differences in understanding, as everyone thinks sunsets are nice. I suppose one could discuss the myths surrounding sunsets as portents of doom, or bad weather, or discuss the superstitions around sunsets, or the signification contained in the image, but in reality... you pretty much know when a sunset pic is just that... a snap of a sunset for no other reason other than it's pretty. Once you recognise this, it makes any further discussion redundant unless you then suggest to the author that perhaps he strive for meaning in the work.

"Yeah.. it's nice that". So, no... nothing wrong with saying that's nice as an acknowledgement of it's niceness... it's just polite (assuming you think it's nice genuinely), but it's still useless in a crit. Such an image's crit would inevitably revolve around the fact that apart from being nice, there's only technical left. Does that make the image bad? No.. it just makes it nice.

Bazin said: “For the first time, between the originating object and its reproduction there intervenes only the instrumentality of a non living agent. For the first time an image of the world is formed automatically, without the creative intervention of man… in spite of any objections our critical spirit may offer, we are forced to accept as real the existence of the object reproduced, actually, re-presented…”

Yes, in effect, what he is saying that without expressed intentions of the intervening author... if an image was merely recorded automatically, then we are faced with a stark, immutable truth that resists interpretation. I have a problem with that though. Take for instance CCTV footage. That would adequately be described as an image recorded by a "non-living agent", yet if we see an image taken from CCTV it is anything but. We ascribe all manner of meaning from it, and would assume that an image of someone, or something shown to us via CCTV footage has negative connotations.

It's endemic in human nature to strive for meaning in images. For this reason alone, I'm baffled by the amateur's instance that there doesn't have to be any :)

Several news agencies want straight, untouched images to portray just the truth, so Bazins argument fits there

It doesn't... as Barthes discussed in The Death of the Author, the very fact that it's in a newspaper infers meaning and adds layers of connotation.


, at times the story is just told in a simple image, that moment captured, but there must have been creative input, the angle, the crop, the timing. Photography can be used in so many other ways, telling stories, passing information, selling, affecting moods etc so I prefer Sekula's interpretation.

Yes... which makes the point... even news images are created, edited, and purposely created with intent to convey meaning.. to tell a story, show facts... whatever.... but there's no such thing as neutrality in an image, because of our own insistence that al images must have meaning.


Christ why do I do this.... LOL. I'm off work.... I should be drinking beer and watching daytime tele :)
 
Last edited:
This idea that if you need to add text to an image, it's a crap image is just so incredibly wrong it beggars belief.

.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point (so we don't drag the thread round in a big circle again) - though that said i'm not necsaarily saying that its a crap image , but if the purpose of the image was to 'speak' or to convey meaning, if it also requires several pages of text to explain that meaning then QED the photo isn't conveying it adequately.

Also some photographers (and artists generally) are given to speaking the kind of cobblers found on that link steve posted earlier. A classic case being the architect who described his creation as being "unique in being entirely contained with in its own dimensions" - now call me mr picky, but arent all buildings (and all objects generally) contained within their own dimensions :confused:

also

It's endemic in human nature to strive for meaning in images

In your opinion - not as an objectively established fact - therefore those that say that there doesnt have to be any who counter that in their (or at least my) opinion it is not endemic in the human nature to strve for meaning in images.. indeed most of human nature would see images as describing the world arround us (which is why cave painting for example are of hunting scenes and other things that the caveman would have seen , not abstract art conveying the problem of being qua being)
 
Last edited:
Christ why do I do this.... LOL. I'm off work.... I should be drinking beer and watching daytime tele :)

Appreciated though - the big words makes it hard to read sometimes so it's good to have feedback on thoughts
 
Why are people scared to discuss their work from a creative perspective?
Man up and you might realise you've been stifling your own talent by hiding your creativity behind your pursuit of the technical.

I agree with david ( i know you can pick yourselves up off the floor now) that its fear - although partly i'd say that the fear comes from the psycho babble that often accompanies such discussion (see the artybollocks generator ) which leaves many 'normal' folk feeling either that their work isnt worthy of such disection, or that because they didn't have such motivation in mind that theres nothing to discuss

with my coniston shot for example from my 52- I didnt have any weighty or phillosophical motivation for taking it beyond 'wow what a beautiful view, lets try and capture that' , I didnt even have the theme 'scenic' in mind as i took the image before i decided to do a 52. - I could write several pages of long words about the tranquility being a counterpoint to the bustle of modern existence, but as that wasnt in my mind when I took the shot this would be mere verbal masturbation and would bring nothing worthwhile to the discussion and critique of the shot
 
( i know you can pick yourselves up off the floor now) that its fear - although partly i'd say that the fear comes from the psycho babble that often accompanies such discussion (see the artybollocks generator ) which leaves many 'normal' folk feeling either that their work isnt worthy of such disection, or that because they didn't have such motivation in mind that theres nothing to discuss

But like I said in response to Byker... they're just words, and it's not really psycho babble... it's just being critical about some stuff we already know... as people, we seek meaning in everything around us. It's human nature. There's the academic language that seeps in, sure, but once you're involved in a "scene" for want of a better word, you just have to use the language that other people use in that same "scene" to make sure you are understood. A common example is when I take cars into garages (not including you in this Stu if you're reading... known you too long to need to do this). I'm a complete petrol head.. I can find my way around a car, but when I go into a garage... I'll readily admit there are a few more "mate"s in my vernacular, and I slip back into "Lancashire" a bit more. It's not completely conscious, but I am aware at some level it does two things: It breaks down any barriers between perceived differences, and it also makes the garage less likely to try and put one over on me because I know nothing about cars. Knowing about cars doesn't seem to fit with the way I look and sound.

I think, if we're honest... we all do this to some extent. It works both ways too.


with my coniston shot for example from my 52- I didnt have any weighty or phillosophical motivation for taking it beyond 'wow what a beautiful view, lets try and capture that' , I didnt even have the theme 'scenic' in mind as i took the image before i decided to do a 52. - I could write several pages of long words about the tranquility being a counterpoint to the bustle of modern existence, but as that wasnt in my mind when I took the shot this would be mere verbal masturbation and would bring nothing worthwhile to the discussion and critique of the shot

I see your point, but... don't go off on one Pete... there is always a hard edged cynicism behind your comments that speaks of a closed mind, and active resistance to the idea of meaning in images. Sure... there was none intended when you took it, and sure you could write a load of crap after the fact, but that's not what we're talking about. No point writing a lad of crap, because you can't fool people. I can spot crap a mile off... do you not think my students think teh same? "I'll take anything right before the deadline and write some flowery crap... yeah... that will do it.".. no it won't. "D+"

What is wrong however, with just sitting down with your work, and thinking.... "Sure... it was beautiful... but why did I feel the need to capture it?" Its' still beautiful whether you captures it or not. There's got to be some motivation here...

Did you capture it to show people how beautiful it was?

Did you capture it to remind yourself how beautiful it was?

Did you capture it to show others how good you are at capturing beauty?

Did you capture it to create decoration to a space that needs beauty?

All of these throw up interesting discussions.

I'm just fascinated by this obsession with photographers "capturing" beauty. Why did you feel the need to capture it? Did you just happen to pass by and notice it, or was this a planned photographic outing? If the latter... did you actually plan to go out and capture beauty?

I think understanding your own motivations will ultimately help you produce better work, because you'll better understand why you even get off your arse to create it in the first place, and you'll have a better means of measuring whether its successful or not.

I don't think any of that is actually psycho babble Pete... I actually think it's quite pragmatic.
 
Last edited:
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point (so we don't drag the thread round in a big circle again) - though that said i'm not necsaarily saying that its a crap image , but if the purpose of the image was to 'speak' or to convey meaning, if it also requires several pages of text to explain that meaning then QED the photo isn't conveying it adequately.

So you didn't read the text I linked to then :)
 
Did you capture it to show people how beautiful it was?

Did you capture it to remind yourself how beautiful it was?

Did you capture it to show others how good you are at capturing beauty?

Did you capture it to create decoration to a space that needs beauty?

All of these throw up interesting discussions.

I'm just fascinated by this obsession with photographers "capturing" beauty. Why did you feel the need to capture it? Did you just happen to pass by and notice it, or was this a planned photographic outing? If the latter... did you actually plan to go out and capture beauty?

I think understanding your own motivations will ultimately help you produce better work, because you'll better understand why you even get off your arse to create it in the first place, and you'll have a better means of measuring whether its successful or not.

I don't think any of that is actually psycho babble Pete... I actually think it's quite pragmatic.

Probably all of the above - principally I took it because i'm a photographer , and landscape is one of the feilds that interests me.

On the whole though i'd still say you are trying to read meaning where there isnt any - understanding that I'm a photographer and that means i take pictures of things that interest me , doesnt add a great deal to creating better work, understanding why i like landscapes might be an interesting psychological discussion (equally we could explore why you feel the need to understand why, and so on) but when i post a photo for critique I don't feel the need to 'lie back on the couch and recall my childhood' so i don't think investigating that kind of motivation actually brings anything to the critique of the image ... and in fact the kind of more technical, practical advice led crit that Steve (ST4) gave is more fundamentally useful in improving my photography.

Of course with an image more laden with symbology which is actually created to mean something (as with the Gursky shot or with the image TBY just posted in the Crit sandbox thread) then exploring what it means, and why they have chosen to explore those themes and whether they have done so effectively might be both pertinent and useful.
 
better things to do with my time at present - i'll look at them later

Perhaps refrain from a dogmatic, fixed mindset until you're read around the subject a little then :) After all... you're usually calling me arrogant, but having such a firm, strong view about something you've not actually studied means you're not arguing from a strong position.. just nothing more than opinion, and that's the very definition of arrogance in any academic debate.

Pictures and words combine to be quite powerful. Images do not speak a thousand words... in fact, bad images speak 0 words, or worse... a million words about a million things to a million people.

There's no such thing as the definitive image that conveys a one, fixed meaning. It's impossible.. you may as well try to knit water, or mould your farts into interesting shapes :)
 
Last edited:
Probably all of the above - principally I took it because i'm a photographer , and landscape is one of the feilds that interests me.

But you don't seem very interested in it if you don't mind me saying. "I liked it, I shot it." is pretty much your response.. paraphrased heavily I'll admit... but your response nonetheless. You enjoy it, sure... but interested? Really? I enjoy a hot shower, and do it often... but that doesn't mean I'm interested in it.


On the whole though i'd still say you are trying to read meaning where there isnt any

I'm trying to read meaning, yes. That's what people do.


- understanding that I'm a photographer and that means i take pictures of things that interest me , doesn't add a great deal to creating better work, understanding why i like landscapes

I disagree... I think it will help your work immeasurably. Also... what was interesting about the scene? You said it's beautiful, but then you said you're interested in it. How?


might be an interesting psychological discussion (equally we could explore why you feel the need to understand why, and so on) but when i post a photo for critique I don't feel the need to 'lie back on the couch and recall my childhood' so i don't think investigating that kind of motivation actually brings anything to the critique of the image ... and in fact the kind of more technical, practical advice led crit that Steve (ST4) gave is more fundamentally useful in improving my photography.

It will only improve it technically though. Is that all you feel is necessary to be a great landscape photographer?

Why the sarcasm related to equating this to a psycho-therapy session. It's merely that you seem confused. You express interest in the subjects you're shooting, but then say I just wanted to capture it's beauty. Surely, knowing why you want to capture it will lead to finding new and interesting ways to record that landscape?


maybe you genuinely just don't want to know.. which is fine. If that's your standpoint... fine.. no issue with it. What is fascinating with you Pete is the aggressively anti-art standpoint you take, as if it somehow offends you personally. Why not just do as many do, shrug and say, "not for me thanks" and disengage from it, and just carry on doing what you do. However, you're always here in these threads, hurling the insults around. Why? LOL Genuinely interested.
 
Back
Top