High Speed Sync

indiabravo

indiabravo

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Iain
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Ok, tried searching (google & TP) but no good. Here's my problem:

I am under the impression that my sb-800 can high speed sync off camera. When mounted to the hotshoe of my d7000 the display on the flash shows me TTL FP meaning I have HSS. When moved off camera however I cannot get the FP showing and as such I'm not getting HSS, only TTL.

Any help appreciated,

Cheers,
Iain
 
I might be off track here but what mode are you using? As far as i know Auto FP only works in program and Aperture priority.
 
I thought you could do it with remote triggers? Just watched a YouTube video with only one flash and triggers
 
After another Google it looks like I can use the pop up flash to trigger it. Will have a try and report back
 
Pop up flash, commander flash (e.g. another SB800), TTL cable (like the SC-29) or Pocket Wizard TT1/TT5 system. I think some of the newer Chinese radio triggers will also work with high speed but I don't know which ones - most won't. The Pocket Wizards are awesome.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Pop up flash, commander flash (e.g. another SB800), TTL cable (like the SC-29) or Pocket Wizard TT1/TT5 system. I think some of the newer Chinese radio triggers will also work with high speed but I don't know which ones - most won't. The Pocket Wizards are awesome.
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You can't use pop up as a commander in FP sync...Unfortunately.
 
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boyfalldown said:
I thought you couldn't use a pop up as commander to auto fp
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Oh yeah. It might not have enough power to do that. Can't say for sure that I've ever tried - I just assumed that because it was CLS compatible it would work.

Would also mean that @Phil Young 's post made sense if he meant to write "can't".

Worth trying it since the OP has the kit to hand.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Oh yeah. It might not have enough power to do that. Can't say for sure that I've ever tried - I just assumed that because it was CLS compatible it would work.

Would also mean that @Phil Young 's post made sense if he meant to write "can't".

Worth trying it since the OP has the kit to hand.
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It's not the power, it's the pop up maximum sync speed.
 
Phil Young said:
Ooops, stupid phone. Meant to say can't*

I'll edit.
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Fat fingers ;)

JonathanRyan said:
Oh yeah. It might not have enough power to do that. Can't say for sure that I've ever tried - I just assumed that because it was CLS compatible it would work.

Would also mean that @Phil Young 's post made sense if he meant to write "can't".

Worth trying it since the OP has the kit to hand.
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;) no comment other then @Phil Young has fat fingers
 
Phil Young said:
It's not the power, it's the pop up maximum sync speed.
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It's probably actually the power. To make HSS work, the flash has to pulse several times very quickly. To do that it needs spare power in its capacitors.

The sync speed will be a function of the shutter timing which will be the same whether the flash is the pop up or an on shoe SB800.

But if Nikon says it can't be done it probably doesn't matter why it can't be done. Pocket Wizards FTW.
 
JonathanRyan said:
It's probably actually the power. To make HSS work, the flash has to pulse several times very quickly. To do that it needs spare power in its capacitors.

The sync speed will be a function of the shutter timing which will be the same whether the flash is the pop up or an on shoe SB800.

But if Nikon says it can't be done it probably doesn't matter why it can't be done. Pocket Wizards FTW.
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Doubt it, my jessops Flash can't auto FP and that's powerful enough...

Interestingly it can sync at any speed on my lx7 - my avatar was taken at 1/1000th off camera using a remote to sync the flash - musty be just nikon being rubbish ;)
 
Phil Young said:
Doubt it, my jessops Flash can't auto FP and that's powerful enough...
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It also needs the cooperation of the camera. Sounds like it won't do it because Nikon won't talk to it in the right way - which makes sense. There are a few 3rd party flashguns that can do HSS but only by reverse engineering Nikon's wizardry. In theory, Nikon could update their cameras to stop them working.
 
Canon pop-ups won't master remote HSS either. Pop-ups in general can't do HSS by themselves as they simply don't have enough power, but there's no obvious reason why they could send a simple 'fire now' HSS command to a remote gun, while not contributing to the exposure themselves.

Canon E-TTL won't do remote 2nd curtain sync either (while Nikon can) with any Canon-brand mastering devise, including the new radio 600EX-RT or ST-E3. I don't know of a technical reason for that either, especially since all third party Canon E-TTL radio triggers can do remote 2nd curtain :thinking:
 
If you put the onboard flash into commander, make sure you set it to '---' otherwise the camera will default to max flash sync speed (limited by the onboard flash).

When set to '---' the remotes can go into high speed sync
 
HoppyUK said:
Canon pop-ups won't master remote HSS either. Pop-ups in general can't do HSS by themselves as they simply don't have enough power, but there's no obvious reason why they could send a simple 'fire now' HSS command to a remote gun, while not contributing to the exposure themselves.

Canon E-TTL won't do remote 2nd curtain sync either (while Nikon can) with any Canon-brand mastering devise, including the new radio 600EX-RT or ST-E3. I don't know of a technical reason for that either, especially since all third party Canon E-TTL radio triggers can do remote 2nd curtain :thinking:
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The power thing doesn't quite make sense to be honest...

Pop ups at full power are pretty powerful, plus, you can HSS a speedlight flash at 1/128th power...
 
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Iain, I use an SB700 and a SB910 I control these with Yongnuo YN 622n triggers, my camera is a D90. When my flashes are off camera the SB910 flash shows FP on the flash screen, however, the SB700 doesn't yet they both work in HSS. Maybe your SB800 displays the same as an SB700.
 
Phil Young said:
The power thing doesn't quite make sense to be honest...

Pop ups at full power are pretty powerful, plus, you can HSS a speedlight flash at 1/128th power...
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With a typical guide number around GN14, the average pop-up is 1/16th the power of a decent gun, say GN56 - four stops brighter. Just switching from normal sync to HSS costs at least two stops, at 1/1000sec it's down four stops. Pop-ups don't stand a chance with HSS.
 
HoppyUK said:
With a typical guide number around GN14, the average pop-up is 1/16th the power of a decent gun, say GN56 - four stops brighter. Just switching from normal sync to HSS costs at least two stops, at 1/1000sec it's down four stops. Pop-ups don't stand a chance with HSS.
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Can you explain how an sb700 can HSS at 1/128th then??

I'd have thought that's not the correct reason since we can increase aperture and or increase iso.
 
Phil Young said:
Can you explain how an sb700 can HSS at 1/128th then??

I'd have thought that's not the correct reason since we can increase aperture and or increase iso.
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Because if you've got HSS, why not? Can't imagine it's much use though. I've certainly never used it. Another thing is because HSS is so power hungry, and the pop-up is powered by the camera battery, it would slow things down a lot and eat batteries.
 
I thought HSS was a longer duration of flash and actual power output of a flash is determined by the amount of time the flash is on/lighting up ?
 
Ivan S said:
I thought HSS was a longer duration of flash and actual power output of a flash is determined by the amount of time the flash is on/lighting up ?
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HSS is a very much longer duration of flash. Total light output is determined by the amount of juice stored in the capacitors, and you can either have that in one big bright dump (normal x-sync), or divided up into a couple of hundred much less bright flashes streamed together at very high frequency (HSS) that effectively become continuous light for the whole time the shutter takes to complete its full cycle. Problem is at shutter speeds above x-sync, the sensor only receives a fraction of the total output at any given moment, and most of the light is wasted as it falls on the closed shutter curtains. The higher the shutter speed, the more light is wasted. Hence, for HSS to be practical, it needs a powerful gun.
 
Phil Young said:
Can you explain how an sb700 can HSS at 1/128th then??

...
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Just to add to what Richard said: Because HSS is a lot of lower powered flashes, a powerful flash at low power is perfectly suited, whereas a lower powered slow to recycle flash is completely unsuitable.
 
Phil Young said:
So how can my little LX7 sync with pop-up at any speed?
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Not knowing the camera personally, I'd guess it's using an electronic shutter, so rather than the curtain movement Richard explained, the shutter opens fully, then the sensor 'comes alive' for the exposure duration. This is obviously the perfect design for high speed flash, as a single short duration flash hits the entire sensor in one go. Nikon used this on an early DSLR I was surprised when they dropped it.

In the old days we had leaf shutters that synced at all shutter speeds, unfortunately a leaf shutter is a complicated mechanical thing, so the highest shutter speed was usually 1/500.
 
Phil Young said:
I'm not unfamiliar to how HSS works with shutter and curtain actions, I just don't know why it can't with pop up - from what can see on Wikipedia, the power answer seems more like a guess.
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Phil, you make me chuckle, it may 'seem like a guess' but if you look at the recycle time, can you tell me how it'd be capable of running at the kind of speed required to do HSS?
 
Phil V said:
Phil, you make me chuckle, it may 'seem like a guess' but if you look at the recycle time, can you tell me how it'd be capable of running at the kind of speed required to do HSS?
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...Do you KNOW this about the flash power are you guessing? I'm not trying to be rude but I don't and would orefer to know rather than hear a guess...
 
Phil Young said:
...Do you KNOW this about the flash power are you guessing? I'm not trying to be rude but I don't and would orefer to know rather than hear a guess...
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I 'Know' the recycle times are pants. I haven't personally measured it precisely, but I do know its pants..
 
Phil Young said:
So you don't KNOW that the reason pop ups can't be used to HSS is due to the power, it's what you think?
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I think Phil knows. Good explanation of various sync options on this PW vid, with HSS well illustrated from about 3.30secs http://www.pocketwizard.com/inspirations/tutorials/pocketwizard_controltl_optimiz/

The loss of effective power with HSS is inevitable, but easy enough to test. Switch gun to manual, full power, normal sync mode, camera on max x-sync speed, and take a correctly exposed shot. Now switch to HSS mode and click the shutter speed up one notch so it's now using HSS. Your exposure will be about two stops darker, possibly more (it varies a bit with different guns). And for every stop of faster shutter speed, you lose another stop, so by 1/1000sec you will be at least four stops down, at 1/2000sec five stops down, and so on. Pop-ups have got nowhere near enough poke to make this practical.
 
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double post
 
Phil:
Is this the ten minute argument or the full half hour?

No one has said they know the reason, even Wiki gives up on the issue. So we can only discuss what we think and it's pointless anyway. Because none of our discussions will alter the fact, there is no workaround, there is no point in trying. Wireless triggers that will do HSS are available cheaply, it's insignificant.

Canon don't even do remote HSS! It's not that the gear is incapable, but they choose not to implement it. No amount of internet willy waving is going to change the design decisions made by the manufacturers. And frankly nothing makes the 600 rt's look more overpriced.
 
Phil V said:
Phil:
Is this the ten minute argument or the full half hour?

No one has said they know the reason, even Wiki gives up on the issue. So we can only discuss what we think and it's pointless anyway. Because none of our discussions will alter the fact, there is no workaround, there is no point in trying. Wireless triggers that will do HSS are available cheaply, it's insignificant.

Canon don't even do remote HSS! It's not that the gear is incapable, but they choose not to implement it. No amount of internet willy waving is going to change the design decisions made by the manufacturers. And frankly nothing makes the 600 rt's look more overpriced.
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I know what you mean Phil - you mean Canon don't even do remote second-curtain sync :D
 
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