High Speed Sync

It's a discussion worth talking about but I for one would like a definite answer of why, if there is one.

It has been said about the power, my response is that it doesn't make sense based on;

A) pop ups are still powerfull enough on full power at f4 / iso 800 for example, to get 1/1600th in good light, I'd wager even faster.

B) my tiny pop up on my lx7 can sync to the maximum.

C) my more than powerful enough jessops flash doesn't HSS.

I'm yet to hear a good response that covers the above.

My point is; it's fine to give an answer if you KNOW it, otherwise it's more helpful to say "my guess is..."
 
Phil Young said:
It's a discussion worth talking about but I for one would like a definite answer of why, if there is one.

It has been said about the power, my response is that it doesn't make sense based on;

A) pop ups are still powerfull enough on full power at f4 / iso 800 for example, to get 1/1600th in good light, I'd wager even faster.
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If you're wanting to compare flash power, you need to specify distance because it's a major factor, but that aside, if you won't accept that pop-ups don't do HSS (or bounce) because they don't have enough power to be useful - a basic fact that seems obvious enough to most people - then you're stuck.

B) my tiny pop up on my lx7 can sync to the maximum.
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It's not using a focal plane shutter, that is at the heart of all DSLR sync problems. Check the PW vid I linked previously. And while the LX7 and quite a few other compacts will sync at high speeds, they can't capture a full power flash, eg a flash duration of 1/1000sec will not fit into a 1/4000sec shutter speed. Though to be fair, depending the shape of the flash pulse curve and the exact timing moment, they might capture most of the brightest part of the flash. It's certainly a very useful feature unavailable to DSLR users. The closest we've come to that is a few older cameras like the Nikon D70 and D40 etc that had a CCD sensor that could be switched on/off very quickly, synching up to 1/500sec officially and a bit higher unofficially, but they're been discontinued. The Holy Grail is an all-electronic solid-state global (not rolling) shutter/sensor - that will be fantastic, and it can't be too far away.

C) my more than powerful enough jessops flash doesn't HSS.
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It's a cheap gun and HSS is not a cheap feature.

I'm yet to hear a good response that covers the above.

My point is; it's fine to give an answer if you KNOW it, otherwise it's more helpful to say "my guess is..."
Click to expand...

The full half hour is up.
 
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HoppyUK said:
It's a cheap gun and HSS is not a cheap feature
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That's what I'm asking - what this feature is! You said before It's about power but clearly it's not.

I don't refuse to acceptpop ups can't HSS, I know they can't. I am wondering why not. You can* bounce a pop up.

Edit* - also Richard, you may have missed where I said that cheap flash can sync off camera remotely on my lx7...so obviously not the flash (exclusively).
 
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Phil Young said:
That's what I'm asking - what this feature is! You said before It's about power but clearly it's not.

I don't refuse to acceptpop ups can't HSS, I know they can't. I am wondering why not. You can* bounce a pop up.

Edit* - also Richard, you may have missed where I said that cheap flash can sync off camera remotely on my lx7...so obviously not the flash (exclusively).
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Phil, instead of trying to come back on a different tack and some other stuff about bouncing a pop-up* you could have said, thanks for your time, I've learned something.

I don't understand your last line.

*And yes, I know it's possible to bounce with some compact pop-ups if you tilt and hold them backwards, but a) it's not an official feature, and b) only works if you're shooting at close distance, with a low white ceiling, at high ISO and low f/number. That's not a marketable proposition.
 
Phil Young said:
...
Edit* - also Richard, you may have missed where I said that cheap flash can sync off camera remotely on my lx7...so obviously not the flash (exclusively).
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Seriously Phil?
HoppyUK said:
It's not using a focal plane shutter, that is at the heart of all DSLR sync problems. Check the PW vid I linked previously. And while the LX7 and quite a few other compacts will sync at high speeds, they can't capture a full power flash, eg a flash duration of 1/1000sec will not fit into a 1/4000sec shutter speed. Though to be fair, depending the shape of the flash pulse curve and the exact timing moment, they might capture most of the brightest part of the flash. It's certainly a very useful feature unavailable to DSLR users. The closest we've come to that is a few older cameras like the Nikon D70 and D40 etc that had a CCD sensor that could be switched on/off very quickly, synching up to 1/500sec officially and a bit higher unofficially, but they're been discontinued. The Holy Grail is an all-electronic solid-state global (not rolling) shutter/sensor - that will be fantastic, and it can't be too far away...
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And my post saying the same thing on the 1st page?

Apples and oranges when it comes to camera capture mode. It's alright saying 'yeah yeah I know all that', but really you're not even reading the blumming answers.

If you're going to ask questions Phil, read the answers rather than just looking for an argument.
 
beyond the blue said:
Iain, I use an SB700 and a SB910 I control these with Yongnuo YN 622n triggers, my camera is a D90. When my flashes are off camera the SB910 flash shows FP on the flash screen, however, the SB700 doesn't yet they both work in HSS. Maybe your SB800 displays the same as an SB700.
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Thanks, looks like the problem may be my triggers (yongnuo rf-602) as they max out at 1/200. At 1/250 I start seeing the shadow of the shutter showing along the very bottom of the image.
 
Phil Young said:
Incidently, I was in jessops tonight buying some sensor cleaning stuff and I saw this...

http://www.hahnel.ie/index.cfm?page=wirelessflashtrigger&id=136&pId=136

Sync's your SB's at any speed :)
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Course Phil, it's not like anyone else mentioned using relatively inexpensive wireless triggers to get high speed sync.




You really ought to start at the beginning and actually read the thread, because whilst you were trying to have an argument people told you all you needed to know.
 
Phil V said:
Course Phil, it's not like anyone else mentioned using relatively inexpensive wireless triggers to get high speed sync.

You really ought to start at the beginning and actually read the thread, because whilst you were trying to have an argument people told you all you needed to know.
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That's 2 snydy posts...if I didn't know better I'd think you were trying to egg me on.

Do yourself a favour and educate yourself on the difference between argument and discussion.

A question isn't always an argument. If you scroll up you'll see how I questioned why pop ups can't HSS and I wanted to know why, not your opinion of why.
 
Phil
The point I'm trying to make honestly not snydy (real word?) is that yesterday you were told why your compact can do HSS twice and ignored it.

You were also told that cheap triggers were the obvious answer to the issue for ocf HSS with your DSLR.

But then you went to Jessops and 'discovered' the answer all by yourself.

Honestly if you read the thread you'll see you were argumentative yesterday. Ignoring answers that didn't fit with your previously held beliefs.
 
Phil Young said:
Incidently, I was in jessops tonight buying some sensor cleaning stuff and I saw this...

http://www.hahnel.ie/index.cfm?page=wirelessflashtrigger&id=136&pId=136

Sync's your SB's at any speed :)
Click to expand...

After spending a few minutes checking these out I doubt they have the control that the 622's have. Its not mentioned that you can vary the output from the transmitter like you can with the 622's (with very precise control when the new controller is released this month) also at £99 they are considerably more expensive. I have no hands on experience of the Hahnel's so will stand being corrected on this.
 
Phil V said:
Phil
But then you went to Jessops and 'discovered' the answer all by yourself.
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Phil, I didn't discover any answers - merely found a radio trigger that will work with a speedlight that works in auto FP. My ultimate question was why some flash units work with HSS and others don't, which I still don't have an answer for but I've given up. I have no beliefs - I don't know why they don't work and haven't guessed like you, I have read wikipedia which talks about different bulbs being used but I don't pretend to know why.

The point is, if it was just about power, my jessops flash (which is more powerful than a SB700) would work...
 
Phil Young said:
Phil, I didn't discover any answers - merely found a radio trigger that will work with a speedlight that works in auto FP. My ultimate question was why some flash units work with HSS and others don't, which I still don't have an answer for but I've given up. I have no beliefs - I don't know why they don't work and haven't guessed like you, I have read wikipedia which talks about different bulbs being used but I don't pretend to know why.

The point is, if it was just about power, my jessops flash (which is more powerful than a SB700) would work...
Click to expand...

Did you read the bit where I said the Nikon have to want you to do this?

HSS is tremendously complicated but the bottom line is that it takes the cooperation of the camera and the flash gun. Nikon simply don't allow the popup to use HSS. We can all speculate as to the reasons for this (and that's why I use words like "might" and "probably") but if Nikon don't want you to do it, you'll have a hard job getting it to work.

I'm going to guess that the reason your LX7 can "sync at any speed" is to do with a long flash burn and electronic shutter - but I'm really not interested enough to find out. If it works, use it.
 
Just tried my D7000 with a full power flash (manual on flash) on top of camera with 1/8000 and it syncs fine.
 
1/8000th f4 ISO100

1453276_10153582448380305_1250547727_n.jpg


Neat!
 
Ivan S said:
Some good info in here how to trick it or something

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The technique he's describing is called Tail Hyper-sync, or sometimes just Hyper-sync or Super-sync, not to be confused Peak Hyper-sync, High Speed Sync, or FP-sync. Hardly surprising folks get confused by all this.

Tail Hyper-sync is a popular trick, and quite easy. It's available directly as a feature on PW Mini/Flex and YN 622 triggers, and probably most auto-TTL enabled triggers, or via other workaround methods. All it requires is a means to extract the HSS timing moment from the camera, and either a speedlite (on full power only), or a typical studio head (at any power setting).

It's used in the same way as HSS/FP-sync, and suffers substantial effective power loss in the same way, but also adds the problem of fading exposure down the frame - typically something between 2-4 stops darker at the top than the bottom. I'm not keen on it personally for that reason, but with the right combination of equipment and careful technique to reduce and minimise the fading effect, it can work well.
 
Phil Young said:
Phil, I didn't discover any answers - merely found a radio trigger that will work with a speedlight that works in auto FP. My ultimate question was why some flash units work with HSS and others don't, which I still don't have an answer for but I've given up. I have no beliefs - I don't know why they don't work and haven't guessed like you, I have read wikipedia which talks about different bulbs being used but I don't pretend to know why.

The point is, if it was just about power, my jessops flash (which is more powerful than a SB700) would work...
Click to expand...

Phil, I have already given you the answer to both those questions.

Pop-ups don't do HSS because they're not powerful enough, and since they run off the camera battery, making them more powerful isn't practical. Your Jessops flash doesn't have HSS because it's a cheap gun, just like it doesn't have a few other higher end features.
 
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