Help needed with focusing issue

[matty D]

I do a lot of dog photography, and a lot of my clients love action shots of their dogs running and playing etc.

I'm having a really frustrating problem with a lot of shots being OOF, and I'm sure it's my technique +/- camera settings, as stationary stuff is spot on. A lot of shots the area of sharpness is either along the dogs back or the ground in front of it.

I use a Nikon D810 and 70-200 2.8, back button focus, AFC and continuous shooting mode for up to 10 frames as the dog is running towards me.

I generally use Dynamic 51 or Group autofocus settings, have tried 3D tracking but found it useless if the dog is a similar tone to the background, or if the dog is running through some vegetation.

I use manual mode and generally use a SS of 1/500 to 1/1000 depending on the speed of the dog, and shoot at f2.8 most of the time to keep the ISO down. Usually set it to auto ISO, and anything under 1000 gives acceptable IQ. Above 1000 and the results aren't really acceptable.
Today for example, overcast so not ideal, I was getting ISO 1000 at 2.8 and 1/800.

First question is am I using the right autofocus mode, ie dynamic 51 and group?

Second question, is am I asking for problems by shooting at f2.8? I don't know my depth of field table, but from what I can see, there is only a couple of inches DOF, which leaves no room for error. But if I shot at say 5.6 then there would be too much noise.

Third question, is the D810 up to the job? I mean it's not designed to be a sports/wildlife camera is it. I don't know what other users think of it, but the ISO performance above 1000 isn't that great IMO??

Could really do with some advice on this one, more than likely my technique needs adjusting.

Thanks in advance

 

[gramps]

I would say the D810 is up to the job and in normal circumstances I would say Group Area AF would be fine as long as you keep the group on the dog well. My worry would be the f2.8 as that is going to give you a fairly shallow depth of field and hence more possibilities of missing focus. The 70-200 has VR so that should assist in closing the aperture more, say f5.6 and if you still find problems maybe consider a monopod?

 

[matty D]

Hi Gramps, thanks for your reply. I'm not sure if the vr is going to be of any use though, as I need the fast shutter speed is to freeze the dogs motion.

 

[gramps]

Yes, I wouldn't entirely discount it ... I know thoughts vary.
I certainly wouldn't be using f2.8 though I think that is making it very difficult for you.

 

[matty D]

Vr is always on anyway, should of said in my original post. But anything below 1/500 and motion blur is the issue

And I'm usually led on the floor so camera is rock steady

But I think your right about f2.8 being the wrong choice. Perhaps I'm expecting too much from any camera if the light isn't great...

 

[Phil V]

Your methodology sounds right.

I'm not familiar with the camera, but with the 7d I'd expect the majority of my shots in focus with those settings (not all of them though). I'd expect close to 100% with a 1dx or 7dII, but I've no idea how good the d810 is supposed to be, it's not really sold as a sports/wildlife camera, so I'd guess you should expect 'some' keepers.

 

[matty D]

Your methodology sounds right.

I'm not familiar with the camera, but with the 7d I'd expect the majority of my shots in focus with those settings (not all of them though). I'd expect close to 100% with a 1dx or 7dII, but I've no idea how good the d810 is supposed to be, it's not really sold as a sports/wildlife camera, so I'd guess you should expect 'some' keepers.

I'd say 30-40% are keepers at the moment. Im sure that the camera can do better than that though, so I feel that there must be an element of user error (or at least I hope, otherwise I can see a very expensive purchase of a D4x on the horizon).

 

[gad-westy]

I've not used a nikon with group AF yet so not 100% sure whether it helps or not.

With my nikons, for fast moving action, I stick to single point AF and keep it on the centre. I then track the subject by moving the camera trying to remain on an area of contrast. It means I generally crop my shots afterwards but I'm not too bothered about that. Maybe worth a go.

I'm not convinced that f/2.8 is a problem at all.

 

[matty D]

Out of interest, does anyone know if there is any advantage using Dynamic 51 over 9 or 21 (or whatever it is). I leave it set to 51 under the assumption that 51 is better than 9, but then why would Nikon bother giving the option of 9 or 21 if they didn't serve a better purpose in certain situations.

 

[steveo_mcg]

I'd be inclined to swap to auto iso, set a lower f stop and fix your lower shutter speed to what ever works and let the camera help.

 

[Phil V]

I'd say 30-40% are keepers at the moment. Im sure that the camera can do better than that though, so I feel that there must be an element of user error (or at least I hope, otherwise I can see a very expensive purchase of a D4x on the horizon).

For a more accurate answer, you'll need to speak to other D810 users, but 40% under those conditions could be considered acceptable (I'd be happy with that on the 40d, which was considered a decent sports camera not that long ago).

 

[matty D]

I've not used a nikon with group AF yet so not 100% sure whether it helps or not.

With my nikons, for fast moving action, I stick to single point AF and keep it on the centre. I then track the subject by moving the camera trying to remain on an area of contrast. It means I generally crop my shots afterwards but I'm not too bothered about that. Maybe worth a go.

I'm not convinced that f/2.8 is a problem at all.

I generally do the same as you, Single point in the centre, and I 'try' to keep it on the dogs face, but the little terrors are so darn quick that its quite tricky! Perhaps thats why I'm having the issue, the fact that the centre point is sometimes off target, even if for only a millisecond or two. I know you can vary the speed at which the camera shifts focus if something comes between the subject and lens, do you think if I slow that down it might help?

 

[matty D]

I'd be inclined to swap to auto iso, set a lower f stop and fix your lower shutter speed to what ever works and let the camera help.

Hi, yes I use auto ISO, can't be doing with having to set that on the fly

 

[gad-westy]

I generally do the same as you, Single point in the centre, and I 'try' to keep it on the dogs face, but the little terrors are so darn quick that its quite tricky! Perhaps thats why I'm having the issue, the fact that the centre point is sometimes off target, even if for only a millisecond or two. I know you can vary the speed at which the camera shifts focus if something comes between the subject and lens, do you think if I slow that down it might help?

Maybe, was trying to remember the term for that in the menu. Never really played with that setting to be honest. Which 70-200 are you using?

 

[gramps]

Using single point is a lot trickier than Group Area AF IMO, as you say just a slight movement and it's off.
I've just checked back on some of my images with the D800 and 70-200 and I've got a lot of moving images at f2.8/f3.2 (motorbikes/Tour of Britain etc) and at much lower shutter speeds so I'm not sure that f2.8 is the problem, on reflection.
Are you happy that the lens is focusing correctly on the D810, or does it need a micro-adjust?

 

[OldCarlos]

Matt, also what sort of distance are you from the action?

 

[fracster]

I've not used a nikon with group AF yet so not 100% sure whether it helps or not.

With my nikons, for fast moving action, I stick to single point AF and keep it on the centre. I then track the subject by moving the camera trying to remain on an area of contrast. It means I generally crop my shots afterwards but I'm not too bothered about that. Maybe worth a go.

I'm not convinced that f/2.8 is a problem at all.

Agree, use spot focus, AFC and track the animal.

I do a lot of gundog stuff, it works for me.

 

[matty D]

Maybe, was trying to remember the term for that in the menu. Never really played with that setting to be honest. Which 70-200 are you using?

The 70-200 2.8 VR2

Using single point is a lot trickier than Group Area AF IMO, as you say just a slight movement and it's off.
I've just checked back on some of my images with the D800 and 70-200 and I've got a lot of moving images at f2.8/f3.2 (motorbikes/Tour of Britain etc) and at much lower shutter speeds so I'm not sure that f2.8 is the problem, on reflection.
Are you happy that the lens is focusing correctly on the D810, or does it need a micro-adjust?

Fairly confident the lens is ok, as stationary stuff is 100% spot on

Matt, also what sort of distance are you from the action?

I generally start tracking a dog from about 50m, all the way until it has run past me

Agree, use spot focus, AFC and track the animal.

I do a lot of gundog stuff, it works for me.

Thats generally the way I do it as well, although that shot doesn't look like it was shot at f2.8? Do you mind me asking the exposure details?



Here are a couple of examples, both shot at 200mm, f2.8, 1/500th and Auto ISO, which was 1250 in this case. Both completely unedited, just converted to small jpeg from the raw file.

First one is acceptable IMO, face is reasonably sharp at 100%





Second one not acceptable, and was the very next frame after the first photo. You can see that the focus is behind the dogs face, and you can see how shallow the DOF is on the vegetation on the left.

 

[gramps]

Although single point AF is the ideal it is also more challenging, try a test by switching to 21-point and then 9-point and see if that affects your keeper rate.

 

[matty D]

Although single point AF is the ideal it is also more challenging, try a test by switching to 21-point and then 9-point and see if that affects your keeper rate.

Will do

I have never bothered with anything other than 51 or group as I (probably wrongly) assumed the more the better!

Maybe 9 or 21 will be a little more accurate

 

[steveo_mcg]

Test it with some traffic? Cars are more predicable and you don't need to worry about keepers just mess on with the af options.

 

[steveo_mcg]

Could the 9 or 21 be clumped to the center of the frame more like a multiple single point af.

 

[fracster]

Thats generally the way I do it as well, although that shot doesn't look like it was shot at f2.8? Do you mind me asking the exposure details?

The shot will be on an old hard drive, i`ll try and find it for you and post details. I very rarely shot wide open, so am fairly sure it won`t be F2.8 though.

 

[Thegreatroberto]

Have a look how you have set custom setting a1-the AF-C priority.
Older Nikons (D700) allowed a choice of three settings. Release, Focus and Release+Focus. I think newer Nikon's miss out the last type.
Make sure it is set for focus. That way, the shutter will only fire if it thinks it's in focus. The frame rate will be lower ( if that's possible on a d810!), but at least the keeper rate will be higher.
Also have a look at setting a4? The focus tracking lock-on. Have a play with that. It defines how quickly the focus changes if the camera looses it's main target ( Sometimes you will want a low figure, sometimes not. It's usually set at 3.

I've never really found a happy answer with single,9 point,51 point,3D etc with AF-C.

Starting with 3d. This takes quite a bit of processing, and hence may not have time to react to changing focus. Bet with things that are moving across the frame.
Then moving from 51 through 9 and finally to single point. Single requires little processing. I.e keep this single bit in focus- But, it does require a lot more input from the photographer.But, defines exactly what you want in focus. I guess the dogs eye?

Me, I do a bit of air shows, and find that dynamic "auto" works best !

 

[fracster]

Robert, I don`t think the a1 setting to focus works if AFC is selected. Could well be wrong though.

 

[Thegreatroberto]

Robert, I don`t think the a1 setting to focus works if AFC is selected. Could well be wrong though.

Should do, unless the d810 is different to most other nikons.
On my D750 and 700, a1 is titled "AF-c priority selection". Dunno. Would need to look at a d810

 

[moomike]

I always used 21 points when doing pet photography - lots of dogs running shots - very good keeper rate & that was with a D300 & the same lens you're using. I'd recommend using just the centre point & seeing how that affects your keeper rate, I was genuinely shocked when I started getting more shots in focus just using centre point & tracking.

 

[KIPAX]

Vr is always on anyway,.

Turn VR OFF and use center point focusing.. At 2.8 the camera has no idea if you want the head or tail in focus.. so you tell it by using center point and poitnign at the head... VR will slow down aquiring the focus... once focus aquired then vr might be usable but a lot is down to technique... for fast runnign dogs you should be using a shutter that doesn't require vr .. your quotes of 500 to 1000 are ok if the dog running towards you as you show....

please note...I dont have nikon.. comments based on assumption that vr works same as canon IS ..

 

[ljphil78]

I was surprised by your comment about anything over iso 1000 not really being acceptable, I would have thought a modern body like the d810 would be perfectly fine at iso's much higher than that, which would allow you to up the aperture, increase your dof and improve your hit rate?

 

[Chris_911]

Interesting read here (IIRC the D810 has the same focus system as the D4S):

http://nps.nikonimaging.com/technical_solutions/d4s_tips/

I shoot dogs regularly with the D810 and 70-200 f2.8 combination and focus is an issue I am continually working on. Generally I try tracking with single point and AF-C but I'm going to revisit the dynamic AF modes.

 

[matty D]

Could the 9 or 21 be clumped to the center of the frame more like a multiple single point af.

I think so, just read the manual, and only the highlighted focus point is active, but if the target briefly leaves the selected area, the camera will use the surrounding 9,21 or 51 points to try and 'guess' where you want to be focusing.

So by the sounds of it, 9 would likely be more accurate than the others.

Have a look how you have set custom setting a1-the AF-C priority.
Older Nikons (D700) allowed a choice of three settings. Release, Focus and Release+Focus. I think newer Nikon's miss out the last type.
Make sure it is set for focus. That way, the shutter will only fire if it thinks it's in focus. The frame rate will be lower ( if that's possible on a d810!), but at least the keeper rate will be higher.
Also have a look at setting a4? The focus tracking lock-on. Have a play with that. It defines how quickly the focus changes if the camera looses it's main target ( Sometimes you will want a low figure, sometimes not. It's usually set at 3.

Thanks, will give it a go and see

Robert, I don`t think the a1 setting to focus works if AFC is selected. Could well be wrong though.

Just checked on my camera and all three of the mentioned options are available using AF-C

I always used 21 points when doing pet photography - lots of dogs running shots - very good keeper rate & that was with a D300 & the same lens you're using. I'd recommend using just the centre point & seeing how that affects your keeper rate, I was genuinely shocked when I started getting more shots in focus just using centre point & tracking.

Cheers, will give it a go

Turn VR OFF and use center point focusing.. At 2.8 the camera has no idea if you want the head or tail in focus.. so you tell it by using center point and poitnign at the head... VR will slow down aquiring the focus... once focus aquired then vr might be usable but a lot is down to technique... for fast runnign dogs you should be using a shutter that doesn't require vr .. your quotes of 500 to 1000 are ok if the dog running towards you as you show....

please note...I dont have nikon.. comments based on assumption that vr works same as canon IS ..

I assume VR is the same as IS, so will definitely try it to see if there is a difference

I was surprised by your comment about anything over iso 1000 not really being acceptable, I would have thought a modern body like the d810 would be perfectly fine at iso's much higher than that, which would allow you to up the aperture, increase your dof and improve your hit rate?

Do you know what, I was just looking through my library for a high ISO shot to post as an example, and I got all the way up to 3000 before I felt IQ was too bad, so I was incorrect in my initial statement. There have been occasions when Ive shot at f5.6 and the auto ISO has got a bit carried away and gone up to 5000 and the results were dire, not what you want to hand to a client, so since then I have always been conscious of keeping the ISO down. So in reality I guess I've got more scope than I thought.

Interesting read here (IIRC the D810 has the same focus system as the D4S):

http://nps.nikonimaging.com/technical_solutions/d4s_tips/

I shoot dogs regularly with the D810 and 70-200 f2.8 combination and focus is an issue I am continually working on. Generally I try tracking with single point and AF-C but I'm going to revisit the dynamic AF modes.

Interesting link, thanks. I'm glad its not just me that finds it tricky

 

[Thegreatroberto]

To be fair to Nikon. My d300s was my first dslr or even slr that could give me sharp pictures of moving objects.
I found the brochure for my Minolta dynax 700 the other day. Talks about predicative focus and shows pics of horses and speedboats. Horsesh1t more like. Never got an in focus picture out of it!

 

[HoppyUK]

IS/VR does not slow down focusing. If anything, the stabilised image will assist it - at least in theory.

But IS/VR will certainly help in pinning the AF point accurately on the subject, buy stabilising the viewfinder image, and that is probably the main problem here.

 

[KIPAX]

IS/VR does not slow down focusing. .

I dont think anyone said it did... i said it slows down aquiring focus which it does. (there is a delay as IS kicks in)... i changed my opinion on it slowing down focus quite a long time ago from your explanation

 

[HoppyUK]

I dont think anyone said it did... i said it slows down aquiring focus which it does. (there is a delay as IS kicks in)... i changed my opinion on it slowing down focus quite a long time ago from your explanation

Yes, I remember

But I think it's important to be clear on this. Yes, IS/VR takes maybe half a second or so to get up and running, but that should already be well underway with half-pressure on the shutter release (or AF back-button activated) in which case IS/VR can only make things better.

A good thread on servo-tracking dogs here http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/help-with-dog-running-pic.461016/#post-5329736 including Tim Dodd's excellent advice, though it looks like some of his pics are missing now.

IMHO, the OP's problem centres around AF set-up and shooting technique. It must be really, because with an easier subject - say a car travelling slowly towards the camera, or maybe a cyclist where it's easy to keep the AF point accurately nailed - I'd confidently expect 80-90% hit rate from his camera/lens combo. But you must keep that AF point accurately pinned.

PS I always try to use a monopod for this kind of work (IS/VR on) - it really keeps the camera end of things steady, and that's half the battle.

 

[KIPAX]

Yes, I remember

But I think it's important to be clear on this. Yes, IS/VR takes maybe half a second or so to get up and running, but that should already be well underway with half-pressure on the shutter release (or AF back-button activated) in which case IS/VR can only make things better.

A good thread on servo-tracking dogs here http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/help-with-dog-running-pic.461016/#post-5329736 including Tim Dodd's excellent advice, though it looks like some of his pics are missing now.

IMHO, the OP's problem centres around AF set-up and shooting technique. It must be really, because with an easier subject - say a car travelling slowly towards the camera, or maybe a cyclist where it's easy to keep the AF point accurately nailed - I'd confidently expect 80-90% hit rate from his camera/lens combo. But you must keep that AF point accurately pinned.

PS I always try to use a monopod for this kind of work (IS/VR on) - it really keeps the camera end of things steady, and that's half the battle.

good grief a monopod? with a dog running round you... by the time you move camera and monodpod to a different position the dogs gone

IS/VR..half a second... a dog running at speed and you half press.. have you any idea where the dog is and your focus is half a second later ?

All I can say for sure is.. IS/VR is a problem DEPENDING ON YOUR TECHNIQUE which is what I originally wrote.. if you can lock and track then shoot at leisure it should work as you describe.. however if you point lock and shoot all at once then your in trouble.. I dont know the ops technique hence why i advised turning it off.. not permamnant but just to see if it helped...... my technique is the latter and IS/VR is a problem.. after taking your adivive I do now use IS for sport in certain condition where i can use pre emptive focusing

i still say he should give it a try... its not going to kill him to try.. am suprised your so against it....

 

[HoppyUK]

Yes, I am against turning IS/VR off, pretty much*. Not really because it will reduce camera-shake (though it might make an improvement there, even at high shutter speeds, with the camera so mobile) but with a stabilised viewfinder it's a lot easier to keep the AF point accurately pinned. So it can only be an advantage, unless you're stabbing at the shutter with the dog running around randomly, which seems to be what you're assuming, but even then you would surely have half-pressure on the shutter release, keeping IS/VR and metering active. It stays on for a couple of seconds after too, but that is how things are supposed to be done...

But the situation I'm assuming is with the dog running towards the camera, preferably from some distance, at least at first, so everything can get locked on and settled down. The shooting situation needs to be as predictable and as smooth as possible or the hit rate will nose-dive. Shooting at greater distance with a longer focal length makes tracking easier, as there's less angular movement needed at the camera end, and the narrower field of view also helps to de-clutter the background rather nicely. A monopod is quite realistic and would certainly help if possible. The key to it all, as you said earlier, is keeping that AF point nailed and that's difficult with the subject dodging around and the camera dodging around trying to keep up. Stabilising the camera and reducing movement can only help - with IS/VR, a monopod, or maybe down on one knee for support.

*There are some situations when it is better to turn IS/VR off, and maybe the situation Kipax is seeing could be one of them. Basically when the camera is swinging left/right and up/down (tracking birds in flight is one example) then sometimes the system can try and work against you. So if it's anything like that (and good luck if it is!) then turning IS/VR off is well worth trying.

 

[Phil V]

good grief a monopod? with a dog running round you... by the time you move camera and monodpod to a different position the dogs gone

IS/VR..half a second... a dog running at speed and you half press.. have you any idea where the dog is and your focus is half a second later ?

But isn't the answer to have IS stabilised well before the subject is in view?
I don't profess to be an expert on sports shooting, but my technique is to have IS steady before I see the subject, and to be focussed and tracking well before the subject is large enough in the frame for the shot.

 

[fracster]

Just checked on my camera and all three of the mentioned options are available using AF-C

I`ll double check later, they may be available but I don`t think it works. I`m pretty sure the camera will activate the shutter whether the focus has locked on or not.

Again, I may be wrong on that, if I am then perhaps somebody could post the settings they use to ensure the camera will not take a shot if the focus is not locked in AFC mode.

 

[Thegreatroberto]

I`ll double check later, they may be available but I don`t think it works. I`m pretty sure the camera will activate the shutter whether the focus has locked on or not.

Again, I may be wrong on that, if I am then perhaps somebody could post the settings they use to ensure the camera will not take a shot if the focus is not locked in AFC mode.

I've Just had a go at tracking cars albeit at 40mph, and trying to get their number plates sharp. OK, so it's not quite high speed dogs eyes.

With the D750 set for AF-A, it took about a 1/4s for it to realise the car was moving, so there was a pause between the first and second shot, then the next 5 were in rapid succession. So, I used AF-A and single point focus. All number plates nailed.
Switched it to AF-C and group focus. Rattled away, no problems. Intrestingly, I think group focus is just a dynamic 5 rather than 9,21 or 51 points. Could be wrong. But, did inspire a bit more confidence than trying to shoot single point. Again, all plates in focus.

Unless you're panning, the shutter speed to avoid motion blur is real important here. Any lack of sharpness was down to me using 1/125th second shutter speed! But the focus was spot on.

So, if I were shooting working dogs, I'd try AF-C, single or group focus, with focus tracking lock-on set to 2. And, use a high shutter speed of at least 1/1000th S. F/2.8 should be fine, and will help isolate the background,