Grey Imports - What are our current feeling?

gman said:
Some smugglers get medals...

View attachment 333546
Click to expand...
Or knighthoods...
i-was-never-a-pirate-i-was-a-smuggler-5bw.jpg
 
HoppyUK said:
That's it, in a nutshell. It's been going on for decades, HMRC knows all about it, parliament has been lobbied by official UK distributors, and still it goes on unchecked.

Here's why - the sheer scale of the problem, across all markets, is truly massive. It's impossible to control and just not a priority in the great scheme of things. It would also cause huge disruption for all legitimately imported goods and be extremely unpopular.

Just look at this container ship, and there are dozens of them working 24/7.

Click to expand...

So are you saying that as there is so little chance of being caught it is worth taking the risk?

If that were true why would any one pay these taxes.
 
nandbytes said:
If you really think customs and import check every single parcel coming into the country you are really naive to put it lightly (that's on the same level as believing Santa brings you Christmas gifts)
Click to expand...
It's clear that you don't watch much daytime TV or you'd be aware that many countries pass incoming goods through lines of X-ray machines and other checks. Britain is one of them.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
It's clear that you don't watch much daytime TV or you'd be aware that many countries pass incoming goods through lines of X-ray machines and other checks. Britain is one of them.
Click to expand...
I’m sure they do but find it very hard to credit that every individual package is x-rayed. Imagine the handling costs. Perhaps they could scan a big pile and use AI to analyse it but then there are ways to beat the x-rays.

The proof really is that we know* VAT has not been paid before it reaches the customer and we know* that very few get charged the VAT later so we can infer that mostly no VAT has been paid ;).

* because 1. it says so on the supplier sites and 2. people here report so.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
It's clear that you don't watch much daytime TV or you'd be aware that many countries pass incoming goods through lines of X-ray machines and other checks. Britain is one of them.
Click to expand...
All 486 million tonnes a year. Have a think about that

Are you interested in some magic beans? ;)

edit - no I don't watch daytime TV, I'm to busy with actual facts and figures :)

Again. I personally know a data analyst who's sole job is to risk assess what gets targeted.
 
Last edited:
AndrewFlannigan said:
It's clear that you don't watch much daytime TV or you'd be aware that many countries pass incoming goods through lines of X-ray machines and other checks. Britain is one of them.
Click to expand...
I don't watch any TV but that's besides the point.
They may all go through an automated x-ray but they all don't get opened and/or manually inspected and then fined. If that happened grey importers will stop sending things to the UK.

In fact with UK checking more than they did in the past especially packages coming from EU (post Brexit) put off a couple of grey importers like e-global (and they have since shut shop).
 
Last edited:
AndrewFlannigan said:
It's clear that you don't watch much daytime TV or you'd be aware that many countries pass incoming goods through lines of X-ray machines and other checks. Britain is one of them.
Click to expand...

How does the X-Ray machine determine the value of the contents?
 
HoppyUK said:
That's it, in a nutshell. It's been going on for decades, HMRC knows all about it, parliament has been lobbied by official UK distributors, and still it goes on unchecked.

Here's why - the sheer scale of the problem, across all markets, is truly massive. It's impossible to control and just not a priority in the great scheme of things. It would also cause huge disruption for all legitimately imported goods and be extremely unpopular.

Just look at this container ship, and there are dozens of them working 24/7.

Click to expand...


That thing is mind - boggling....!
 
KitsuneAndy said:
How does the X-Ray machine determine the value of the contents?
Click to expand...
My guess is that a camera reads the handwritten scrawl that say “fluffy toy $20” and the x-ray machine sees “camera” and a laser is deployed to vaporise the package ;).
 
I'd not come across these sites until reading this thread and I don't have expensive kit (yet) as I've just started out. But some of the savings appear decent, enough for most people (in my opinion) to purchase from one of these sites. Ultimately with these things it boils down to the simple fact it's other people's money and they are free to spend it where and how they like. Is it any different to buying from Amazon for example?
 
Last edited:
Sorry, I mean the money people spend and where they choose to spend it is entirely their choice. Some will prefer to spend locally, support a local business and do their bit for the greater good (so to speak). Others may feel differently and that's the way it is. I purchased a new car in 2019 (waste of money that's been). I have a couple of dealers local, but got a price online and asked dealers to match it. One did, one didn't. So I purchased from the dealer that did.
 
Adamcski said:
Is it any different to buying from Amazon for example?
Click to expand...
you are mixing two different sorts of taxes. When you buy from Amazon you pay VAT etc,
 
I'm well versed in tax so am not mixing things up. I am simply trying to state that person A feels one way and person B feels another. That's the way life is. We all have our own beliefs, thoughts, feelings, biases, agendas or whatever. What works for one may not work for the other.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sky
I'm a member of some watch forums and precious metal forums and these sorts of conversations often pop up on those also. Some try and save £30 importing precious metals from abroad, some don't. I've purchased watches from the grey market, Hong Kong mainly, but that was because they weren't available here in the UK.
 
Adamcski said:
purchased a new car in 2019 (waste of money that's been). I have a couple of dealers local, but got a price online and asked dealers to match it. One did, one didn't. So I purchased from the dealer that did.
Click to expand...
Again, you are comparing apple & pears, all those dealers were charging whatever the U.K. tax is on cars, there was no smuggling involved. If you had bought the car from Japan, imported it directly and with the aid of the supplier it was declared as a fluffy toy ( :) ) and you had thus avoided taxes, that would be comparable.
 
sphexx said:
Again, you are comparing apple & pears, all those dealers were charging whatever the U.K. tax is on cars, there was no smuggling involved. If you had bought the car from Japan, imported it directly and with the aid of the supplier it was declared as a fluffy toy ( :) ) and you had thus avoided taxes, that would be comparable.
Click to expand...
A large fluffy toy filled with lead perhaps
 
nandbytes said:
If you really think customs and import check every single parcel coming into the country you are really naive to put it lightly (that's on the same level as believing Santa brings you Christmas gifts every year)
Click to expand...

I remember years ago the French got upset with Japanese video recorders and decided to unpack and inspect every one before allowing them through. So it can be done at least to some degree although how you'd stop companies labelling them as something else matching the size and shape of a video recorder box I don't know.
 
sphexx said:
Again, you are comparing apple & pears, all those dealers were charging whatever the U.K. tax is on cars, there was no smuggling involved. If you had bought the car from Japan, imported it directly and with the aid of the supplier it was declared as a fluffy toy ( :) ) and you had thus avoided taxes, that would be comparable.
Click to expand...
Missing my point.

You are free to buy whatever you like, from wherever you like, taxes or not....just the same as the next individual. If one person buys grey because they want to save a few quid, then that's their choice. Like it or not. We are not all cut from the same cloth and calling people smugglers for doing so is (IMO) a little silly.

I'm sure everyone on this thread has always paid the right tax, never had a little cash in hand work, paid someone cash, or stuck an extra coffee through their expenses lol.

I'm also sure everyone on here that appear to be throwing stones down at others from the high ground operates their LTD businesses and pays themselves in full via PAYE rather than a smaller PAYE topped up by dividends? So one avoids some taxes buying grey, the other avoids taxes / NI via running their business in the above fashion...

You can pick holes in people's choices all day, but my main point is WHY BOTHER? Let them do what they like and others what they like.

I shall duck out now as I find the track this conversation is heading is a little ridiculous (again IMO).
 
woof woof said:
I remember years ago the French got upset with Japanese video recorders and decided to unpack and inspect every one before allowing them through. So it can be done at least to some degree although how you'd stop companies labelling them as something else matching the size and shape of a video recorder box I don't know.
Click to expand...
Sure it can be done for a while for certain packages coming from certain places. That's hardly equivalent to inspecting every single package from all around the world.
They could of course target packages originating from Hong Kong and I'm surprised they haven't but may be there isn't enough in it to be worth it.
 
Adamcski said:
Missing my point.

You are free to buy whatever you like, from wherever you like, taxes or not....just the same as the next individual. If one person buys grey because they want to save a few quid, then that's their choice. Like it or not. We are not all cut from the same cloth and calling people smugglers for doing so is (IMO) a little silly.
Click to expand...
And like it not they are smugglers because that's exactly what they have done smuggled goods (camera in this case) into the country.
"Smuggle - verb - move (goods) illegally into or out of a country."

Adamcski said:
I'm sure everyone on this thread has always paid the right tax, never had a little cash in hand work, paid someone cash, or stuck an extra coffee through their expenses lol.

I'm also sure everyone on here that appear to be throwing stones down at others from the high ground operates their LTD businesses and pays themselves in full via PAYE rather than a smaller PAYE topped up by dividends? So one avoids some taxes buying grey, the other avoids taxes / NI via running their business in the above fashion...

You can pick holes in people's choices all day, but my main point is WHY BOTHER? Let them do what they like and others what they like.
Click to expand...

As said previously I am not here to be the shining knight for HMRC, far from it. There's skeletons in everyone closets I'm sure.
The point is there is really no justification for partaking a bit of tax evasion. It's illegal whether you like it not, no amount of justification will change that.
Basically two wrongs don't make a right.

Adamcski said:
I shall duck out now as I find the track this conversation is heading is a little ridiculous (again IMO).
Click to expand...
I think its past that for a while now :p
Just replying because why not :ROFLMAO:
When I am in a better mood, less sick and less work to do I might look at more constructive things to do. with spare 5 minutes here and there this thread is great for a break :p
 
sphexx said:
Nobody is suggesting grey suppliers aren’t paying taxes. The importers all say they haven’t paid the tax, as they personallly report here and I believe them.


Whataboutery! Because one person does wrong it doesn’t excuse another, pure playground excuses :(.
Click to expand...
I have a lens unopened from e-infinity waiting to be checked this weekend which came posted from the uk with no customs forms. Who’s the importer? Not me.

I’m not making excuses or doing whataboutery. You apparently think anyone buying grey is avoiding tax and is operating a fraud as you clearly believe someone is doing wrong. You havent picked up that grey costing isnt about taxes, its fundamentally about regional pricing strategy. I dont know how old you are or whether you remember the Tesco/ Levi battle on jeans, a well publicised case on grey imports


Tesco could buy Levi premium jeans from a different region, transport, import and sell for around 50% less in store than the same pair of jeans bought by Tesco from the local retailer. There was a court battle and Tesco lost on the right to buy from outwith the region but look at those numbers, 50% less based on a regional pricing strategy. They would have to soak up returns and defects costs, pay all their taxes and presumably hit a similar or better margin ( if the margin wasnt at least as good then a 40% reduction would sort that and not dent sales)and could do that for 50% less. If you are unhappy with grey then i dont understand why you wouldnt want the manufacturers to sell at the lowest cost globally leaving only local taxes and retailer margins in the mix.

Camera wholesale unit costs across regions will have large differences and even paying import and vat could still end up 20% less than uk retail prices. Because its cheaper and the t&c’s say something about contractual relationships doesn’t automatically mean someone is defrauding the revenue.
 
Jim_Tod said:
I have a lens unopened from e-infinity waiting to be checked this weekend which came posted from the uk with no customs forms. Who’s the importer? Not me.

I’m not making excuses or doing whataboutery. You apparently think anyone buying grey is avoiding tax and is operating a fraud as you clearly believe someone is doing wrong. You havent picked up that grey costing isnt about taxes, its fundamentally about regional pricing strategy. I dont know how old you are or whether you remember the Tesco/ Levi battle on jeans, a well publicised case on grey imports


Tesco could buy Levi premium jeans from a different region, transport, import and sell for around 50% less in store than the same pair of jeans bought by Tesco from the local retailer. There was a court battle and Tesco lost on the right to buy from outwith the region but look at those numbers, 50% less based on a regional pricing strategy. They would have to soak up returns and defects costs, pay all their taxes and presumably hit a similar or better margin ( if the margin wasnt at least as good then a 40% reduction would sort that and not dent sales)and could do that for 50% less. If you are unhappy with grey then i dont understand why you wouldnt want the manufacturers to sell at the lowest cost globally leaving only local taxes and retailer margins in the mix.

Camera wholesale unit costs across regions will have large differences and even paying import and vat could still end up 20% less than uk retail prices. Because its cheaper and the t&c’s say something about contractual relationships doesn’t automatically mean someone is defrauding the revenue.
Click to expand...

I believe you'd still be the importer.
All sellers in the UK are required to provide a VAT receipt by law. e-infin doesn't provide one because they don't pay it. you can ask for it and see how far you get ;)
 
Jim_Tod said:
I have a lens unopened from e-infinity waiting to be checked this weekend which came posted from the uk with no customs forms. Who’s the importer? Not me.
Click to expand...
I think the usual form is Not me guv ;). Of course you are the importer
Jim_Tod said:
I’m not making excuses or doing whataboutery. You apparently think anyone buying grey is avoiding tax and is operating a fraud as you clearly believe someone is doing wrong. You havent picked up that grey costing isnt about taxes, its fundamentally about regional pricing strategy.
Click to expand...

There may be some of that but it’s demonstrably about taxes.
Jim_Tod said:
I dont know how old you are or whether you remember the Tesco/ Levi battle on jeans, a well publicised case on grey imports


Tesco could buy Levi premium jeans from a different region, transport, import and sell for around 50% less in store than the same pair of jeans bought by Tesco from the local retailer. There was a court battle and Tesco lost on the right to buy from outwith the region but look at those numbers, 50% less based on a regional pricing strategy. They would have to soak up returns and defects costs, pay all their taxes and presumably hit a similar or better margin ( if the margin wasnt at least as good then a 40% reduction would sort that and not dent sales)and could do that for 50% less. If you are unhappy with grey then i dont understand why you wouldnt want the manufacturers to sell at the lowest cost globally leaving only local taxes and retailer margins in the mix.
Click to expand...
That’s all a bit recent. I’m more than old enough to remember Ted Heath abolishing Retail Price Maintenance in 1964. Tesco was involved in that too.
Jim_Tod said:
Camera wholesale unit costs across regions will have large differences and even paying import and vat could still end up 20% less than uk retail prices. Because its cheaper and the t&c’s say something about contractual relationships doesn’t automatically mean someone is defrauding the revenue.
Click to expand...
Ha, ha! I don’t care greatly about you lot smuggling cameras in, I just don’t understand why you are all (I think, all) are so self-righteous about it or maybe delusional.

As I wrote earlier, I’ve smuggled the odd salami back in the day and, whichever way you slice it, it’s the same thing ;).
 
tijuana taxi said:
If the cap fits, you are one of the worst offenders.
Click to expand...
I don’t think I’ve been offensive, and certainly not to you since you’ve only just popped in, apparently to announce you don’t care.
 
Adamcski said:
Missing my point.

You are free to buy whatever you like, from wherever you like, taxes or not....just the same as the next individual. If one person buys grey because they want to save a few quid, then that's their choice. Like it or not. We are not all cut from the same cloth and calling people smugglers for doing so is (IMO) a little silly.

I'm sure everyone on this thread has always paid the right tax, never had a little cash in hand work, paid someone cash, or stuck an extra coffee through their expenses lol.

I'm also sure everyone on here that appear to be throwing stones down at others from the high ground operates their LTD businesses and pays themselves in full via PAYE rather than a smaller PAYE topped up by dividends? So one avoids some taxes buying grey, the other avoids taxes / NI via running their business in the above fashion...

You can pick holes in people's choices all day, but my main point is WHY BOTHER? Let them do what they like and others what they like.

I shall duck out now as I find the track this conversation is heading is a little ridiculous (again IMO).
Click to expand...

The difference is, rightly or wrongly, that some tax avoidance measures are legal.

But mis declaring imports and not declaring it when you receive it, is tax evasion and it's illegal.

Now that's fine, and individuals can make their decision and there's not likely to be any consequence.

BUT, people should understand it's not legal before making that decision.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
The discussion has been more about whether grey importers are acting legally or not. As stated before, it's entirely possible to get better prices legitimately in different countries. The moral question is entirely about knowing which grey importers are doing this and paying the lower taxes and duties on their imports and which are not, creating a situation where an unlucky customer could receive correspondence or even a visit from an enforcement officer demanding unpaid duty and tax, with or without a penalty.
Click to expand...
i believe that the root cause of the issue is the decision by the manufacturers to adopt differential regional pricing. That sets up the ability for suppliers in low cost regions to sell into high cost regions and significantly undercut the official distribution channel for local retailers. If the unit cost was a global cost then there would be little space for unofficial distributors.

I posted elsewhere in the thread about the Tesco/ Levi battle over grey import jeans. There was enough space there to sell grey for 50% of official channel whilst dealing with import, vat refunds, etc. Perhaps with that as background in respect to what is possible with diferential regional pricing we could cut the grey importers enough slack to at least see that buying elsewhere at 50% unit cost, paying duty and vat and paying insurance for a warranty could still leave space below the official channel pricing for them to operate in. Legal wording in t&c’s generally protect vendors against what if’s and arent often there to flag up illegality. Morally they may not be doing anything wrong and if i was reading about a rush of HMRC post and door knocking i could understand the assumption that they’re acting unlawfully but i’m not and the debate around grey has been going on a long time without the post and door knocking going on.

i keep reading about forum members buying grey channels and generally getting good service. Not aware of many negative posts of duty , tax and fines and negative stories run faster than positive ones.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
I mean, it's pretty obvious when the customs declaration undervalues the camera. But sure, we don't know they're mis declaring the value and then somehow paying the correct amount of VAT and duty another way...
Click to expand...
I’ve bought recently and regularly over the years from both panamoz and hdew with no customs declaration forms on the boxes. if you name the ones doing that then that as far as i’m concerned would be fraudulent and i wouldnt be looking to use them but currently thats not my experience.
 
Jim_Tod said:
I’ve bought recently and regularly over the years from both panamoz and hdew with no customs declaration forms on the boxes. if you name the ones doing that then that as far as i’m concerned would be fraudulent and i wouldnt be looking to use them but currently thats not my experience.
Click to expand...

Panamoz definitely do it. They had a value of £190 on a £1400 lens I bought 3 years ago

HDEW supply a vat receipt that's not actually valid.
 
Jim_Tod said:
I’ve bought recently and regularly over the years from both panamoz and hdew with no customs declaration forms on the boxes. if you name the ones doing that then that as far as i’m concerned would be fraudulent and i wouldnt be looking to use them but currently thats not my experience.
Click to expand...
Panamoz valued a £2K camera as £20 toys :ROFLMAO:
its in sales and I still have the original box. Happy to send it to you if you buy it and you can look for yourself :p

HDEW do not supply a VAT receipt by default, you can request one though and they provide it. Its "fake".
 
nandbytes said:
Its incredible the lengths people go to justify buying grey, no matter what its still illegal.
Click to expand...
i dont know why there is a belief grey is illegal. Grey is just product imported outwith the manufacturers preferred distribution channel. Other actions around importation and sale could be fraudulent if they occur but all i see no actual evidence offered just supposition.
 
Jim_Tod said:
i dont know why there is a belief grey is illegal. Grey is just product imported outwith the manufacturers preferred distribution channel. Other actions around importation and sale could be fraudulent if they occur but all i see no actual evidence offered just supposition.
Click to expand...
grey importing is not illegal, evading tax after grey importing is.
Most people (if not all people) who grey import cameras do so in the hopes of evading tax and saving themselves some money. That act of tax evasion is illegal.
But saying all that is rather tiresome each time so I generalised as grey imports being illegal. Generalisations aren't always correct of course but in this case it'll easily apply to the vast majority (and most probably everyone grey importing on this forum).
 
Jim_Tod said:
i dont know why there is a belief grey is illegal. Grey is just product imported outwith the manufacturers preferred distribution channel. Other actions around importation and sale could be fraudulent if they occur but all i see no actual evidence offered just supposition.
Click to expand...

Buying grey isn't illegal.

But not declaring the import correctly is.
 
This has got to be the longest grey import thread that hasn’t (yet) been shutdown due to ending in a huge argument :banana: (there’s probably still time;)).

Just like brexit I don’t think either side will ever see the others opinion so it just becomes Groundhog Day going over the same ground time and time again.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top