Not if Gary declares the camera at Heathrow and pays duty / VAT.
Grey Imports...How to spot them?
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dave_bass5
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The 'dodgy' Gary im thinking of wouldn't be allowed anywhere near Heathrow, or the UK ;-)
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Because by buying it YOU are evading Import duty and VAT that's due on the item, there is no way of avoiding that fact because its you as buyer who are the importer and are responsible for those charges.
You might think so what? but with lots of people now doing it as well as the big corporations/stars/celebs all going for tax avoidance schemes the books aren't balancing. In order to try and balance the books the government are slashing grants & payments to local authorities who in turn are slashing their care packages to people like me, I have just lost 2/3rds of my care hours including all house cleaning, washing and drying of bed clothes, my night call outs and evening calls as well as all my social hours, in short I have lost a life and just have an existence now.
Dave *
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Compare the UK price minus vat to those overseas prices.
Then, if you view the 20% vat levied on UK sales as rip off b*****ks maybe you should refuse to be treated by the NHS next time you're ill because you don't want any part of the rip off b*****ks...
Phil V
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Do they f***!
Or to put it another way... you really have no idea what’s considered ‘normal’ after sales in the rest of the world if you think we (in the EU) are no better served.
So is it fair to say by buying grey imports knowing the mechanism, the buyer is deliberately evading tax?
Dave *
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If they buy from outside the EU and then don't pay the required vat (and duty if applicable) for the retail price paid, yes, they are.
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Not all 'grey importers' buy from outside the EU < From outside the UK yes, but not always from outside the EU. This begs the question of what will happen once Brexit starts.
Have the 'official UK importers' paid duty and taxes on the goods they retail in the UK? - As most camera goods originate from outside the EU I assume they have and yet the ordinary UK buyer from them is additionally paying vat (unless they can reclaim it as a business).
I don't think it's at all fair or justified to assume that the reason that grey importers are able to offer cheaper prices is because they are illegally evading taxes (as opposed to avoiding or reducing their taxes).
Have the 'official UK importers' paid duty and taxes on the goods they retail in the UK? - As most camera goods originate from outside the EU I assume they have and yet the ordinary UK buyer from them is additionally paying vat (unless they can reclaim it as a business).
I don't think it's at all fair or justified to assume that the reason that grey importers are able to offer cheaper prices is because they are illegally evading taxes (as opposed to avoiding or reducing their taxes).
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....I don't believe that is the case. My understanding is that the consumer/buyer is not the importer when the purchased goods are shipped to them from within the UK, or even from within the EU (currently before Brexit details are officially settled).
....People, whether commercial companies or individuals, have always legally done all they can to legally avoid or reduce tax. And the books of Great Britain PLC have never balanced and never will - It's a never ending game of financial management and compromise.
I do feel sorrow for the circumstances you now find yourself in but I don't feel it's justifiable to blame everyone who does what they can to legally reduce their taxes. Loading ever increasing taxes on people doesn't solve matters, in fact it can make things worse. 20% vat on most goods and many services is already inequitous in my opinion.
You could say tax avoidance schemes or you could say optimising the tax rule. Bottom line is the closer to the line you get of tax avoidance / evasion the more its in the hands of HRMC as to whether you are over the line or teetering on it.
The government set the rules all these people are doing is looking at the rules and working out what they can and can't do.
However if you know that the "agent" clearly states you are the importer then that would appear to be evasion rather than avoidance
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StewartR
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That puts you in a small minority then, and it makes you sound as if you're in denial.
Although to be strict about it, most of the grey importers aren't illegally evading taxes themselves. Theur terms and conditions state that the buyer is the importer, so what they're doing is facilitating illegal tax evasion by the customers.
like Peer 2 Peer or torrent applications to a certain extent then?
andy1868
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Just a snippet from the Panamoz site, if that helps any
10. Will I have to pay any import taxes and duties?
You will not have to pay any. Our prices are all inclusive. All import and customs charges will be covered by us fully, and will be billed to our shipping account directly. You will not be billed.
10. Will I have to pay any import taxes and duties?
You will not have to pay any. Our prices are all inclusive. All import and customs charges will be covered by us fully, and will be billed to our shipping account directly. You will not be billed.
Yes, but do they declare the goods to HMRC, or rely on the fact that HMRC don’t have the resources to check every parcel set to UK.
Despite them getting the import and customs charges bill, as I understand it you (as the customer / importer) are still ultimately responsible for the charges.
At the end of the day no one really knows how much tax / duty is paid by the Grey market suppliers. However most people assume they can only keep their prices low by only paying VAT and any relevant duty when forced to. Ultimately it’s a grey area!
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Whilst the import duties are paid by the dealer, French customs also send a copy of the receipt for the duties paid to the importer (the customer) and so I can see exactly how much duty and VAT was paid.
What is clear from the documents is that the declared value bears not the slightest resemblence to the purchase price.
Retune
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A legitimate importer (official or otherwise) buying retail stock from outside the EU pays VAT on import, and then reclaims it. So the only net payment is by the consumer.
Ask yourself this - if certain well-known 'grey' importers were really paying VAT on everything and their keen prices just a result of sourcing from cheaper overseas suppliers, surely it ought to be possible to find most popular items at even cheaper prices from foreign dealers (e.g. Hong Kong ebay traders), with the understanding that the UK purchaser is responsible for VAT? Yet, curiously, the VAT-free prices asked by companies that openly ship from outside the EU and state that the purchaser is responsible for all local taxes are very close to those of the companies that imply there is nothing more to pay.
Dave *
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What they do though, is massively undervalue the item on the declaration in the hope it isn't noticed.
For example, this was for a Canon 6D last year:
StewartR
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Exactly. Very well put.
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It seems to me that those people posting in this thread are either quite happy about what the grey importers have to offer or they are resolutely against them. You takes yer pick and pays yer money. It's not unlike political or religious discussions in that they soon become largely a waste of time.
I say live and let live and enjoy using what you buy, be it grey or otherwise.
I say live and let live and enjoy using what you buy, be it grey or otherwise.
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....
It depends which way you want to look at it.Such 'terms and conditions' stated by a supplier who ships from within the UK to the buying consumer may be challenged and argued as merely trying to cover their arses. Tax avoidance (legal) at worst but not tax evasion in my view. But, hang on, apparently I'm "in denial"
Retune
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We aren't the accountants for the 'grey' market operators, so we don't know exactly how much tax (if any) they might be paying. It's just that the typical way they operate is more consistent with facilitating tax evasion rather than avoidance. Commonly, you order from a company that has only a virtual or token presence in the UK, and the shipment arrives from outside the EU. An accurate value may not be declared on the packaging or it may be incorrectly described as a 'gift'. The small print names you as the official importer. Sometimes a package is picked up by customs and a charge is levied, which the 'grey' market operator immediately pays, no questions asked. But in most cases the shipment gets through without issue, because Customs have limited resources to check packages. In these cases, who has paid the tax? I think what the 'grey' operators are really selling is plausible deniability ('but they implied there was no tax to pay') and insurance against being hit with a customs bill. Perhaps not all 'grey' operators work this way. Some large respectable US retailers offer cheaper parallel imports of selected products alongside the officially imported gear, and there is no suggestion the appropriate taxes are not being paid. But this business model seems to be rare in the UK for camera gear.
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shoshone
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I always believed that only applied to bodies and that lenses had international warranty...
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Isn't this simply due to there being no import duty/taxes on cameras and lenses from certain countries, Japan being one of them?
snerkler
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I was referring to bodies tbh, but on saying that some manufacturers don't honour warranty on lenses bought outside a region either. Nikon's lenses are worldwide but either Sigma or Tamron (can't remember which now) don't whereas the other does. Or at least last time I enquired this was the case
Terrywoodenpic
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Grey importing done correctly has advantages.
When we buy a camera abroad it is subject to local taxes and or duties.
Some large retailers will deliver items directly to your Plane or ship at an even lower price, that quite properly excludes these taxes and duties.
It is then your responsibility to pay British duties and taxes when you arrive at customs.
Grey importers work much the same way but they also have the benefit of bulk discounts. they also have the opportunity to purchase their stock from the most advantageous country.
Were they all smuggling the cameras into the UK and avoiding tax and duties, they would be easily caught, as they make no attempt to hide their trade.
We would be hearing of their prosecutions all the time, and Unhappy customers would face the visit of Customs and excise all too frequently.
We do not hear of these things. These things do not happen.
Grey imports have a bad name because it is in the interest of both distributes and retailers to spread doubt.
You are more likely to be offered a camera stolen in transit by a criminal, than an untaxed Grey import.
When we buy a camera abroad it is subject to local taxes and or duties.
Some large retailers will deliver items directly to your Plane or ship at an even lower price, that quite properly excludes these taxes and duties.
It is then your responsibility to pay British duties and taxes when you arrive at customs.
Grey importers work much the same way but they also have the benefit of bulk discounts. they also have the opportunity to purchase their stock from the most advantageous country.
Were they all smuggling the cameras into the UK and avoiding tax and duties, they would be easily caught, as they make no attempt to hide their trade.
We would be hearing of their prosecutions all the time, and Unhappy customers would face the visit of Customs and excise all too frequently.
We do not hear of these things. These things do not happen.
Grey imports have a bad name because it is in the interest of both distributes and retailers to spread doubt.
You are more likely to be offered a camera stolen in transit by a criminal, than an untaxed Grey import.
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Retune
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This thread suggests there's no import duty into the US on digital cameras. But I think the big fiddle within the US is to buy by mail order from another state tax-free and then not declare the purchase locally.
shoshone
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Earlier in this thread I believe the similar retail price including VAT being charged by UK retailers for new kit was questioned. This looks like Retail Price Maintenance something which I thought was formally abolished. The fact it still looks like it must be that the manufacturer is able to exclude vendors who break ranks on pricing. (So Plus ca Change...)
Retune
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With the typical T&Cs of these companies, it's usually the purchaser that's the importer. They will cover your losses if the shipment is caught, but that's just the cost of doing business.
So I imagine you'd have no trouble getting a VAT receipt from one of the major HK-based 'grey' operators for an item you have received that has not been stopped by Customs?
Terrywoodenpic
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It would certainly seem that the prices quoted by the major retailers are so close as to make no appreciable difference. I am surprised that they have not been pulled up about this.
However the camera market is very fragile and those that can't compete are mostly long gone.
It is a difficult market to add value, as the service factor was lost to box shifting years ago.
The hybrid On Line come Bricks and mortar model, has proved a major winner.
Terrywoodenpic
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Do you not suppose that the Customs and Excise are not totally aware of this possibility, and check these companies out very carefully.
They do not say that they will cover your losses, they simply reclaim your duplicated payment. and reimburse you.
I have never tried to get a vat receipt, as I am not vat registered and would be no benefit.
As some are fairly high turnover companies, those, that are operating in this country, would need to be vat registered, as such they could offer vat invoices and receipts. If they are not vat registered it would be illegal for them to give vat receipts, even when they have paid the vat on entry.
Retune
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How many of them even have a meaningful UK operation? They may have a UK phone number, co.uk domain, and nominal address registered to a similarly named company, but for the purposes of importing the goods, your contract is usually with the HK (or other non-EU) company, outside the jurisdiction of HMRC. Of course they don't say 'cover your losses' explicitly - they may do something like offer to pay 'all import and customs charges', leaving open the question of what happens if no such charges are levied. If customs charge reimbursements are simply erroneous 'duplications' of charges that have already been paid, surely it would be a simple matter for the company to provide you with documentary evidence of payment in 'normal' circumstances, where the goods arrived without extra charges? After all, you are the importer (read the small print).
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If the goods are declared wrongly to HMRC then it’s Tax Evasion which is illegal. Who are s responsible (the grey import company or the end purchaser) is questionable but please don’t pretend declaring a £1500 camera as £325 value is legal!Such 'terms and conditions' stated by a supplier who ships from within the UK to the buying consumer may be challenged and argued as merely trying to cover their arses. Tax avoidance (legal) at worst but not tax evasion in my view. But, hang on, apparently I'm "in denial"
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....Er, I am neither "pretending" anything nor am I needing to "declare" anything thanks! Besides, all claims by HMRC are challengeable if you need to defend your position or circumstances and especially as the end purchaser will almost certainly have no idea of what value the supplier has attributed to the goods.
Furthermore, as someone commented earlier, none of us here have indisputable knowledge of the internal accounts of grey importers and so it's all speculation and mostly driven by those who are prejudiced against grey importers on whatever grounds they choose be it 'moral' or otherwise. [Prejudiced meaning pre judging]
Are you saying that everybody who buys from a grey importer is guilty of illegal tax evasion and regardless of each individual case?
I was responding to your specific comment.
And yes, anyone who recieves a camera worth (say) £1500 which is marked as a value of $325 on the customs declaration IS guilty of tax evasion.
You are correct we don’t know the internal accounting of grey import companies, but there have been investigations which have shown they don’t generally declare or pay correct tax. Not necessarily on cameras, but on other electrical goods. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42143849 Was a recent BBC Panorama investigation. (IPlayer https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09hm8q4/panorama-the-billion-pound-vat-scam ) not identical to grey import camera market but very close!
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Carlo
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....Did you not read the part where I said "the end purchaser will almost certainly have no idea of what value the supplier has attributed to the goods"? You seem to be putting on the mantle of Judge and Jury and decreeing that the end purchaser is guilty of tax evasion irrespective of not knowing what value the supplier has attributed to the goods.
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Possibly intended for another market....Austral-Asia, South America.....my CPS rep only mentioned the three that I detailed in the earlier post.The 3rd figure on my 5D Mk IV is a 5!
johnf3f
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A little while ago I bought a Canon camera for £769 (inc postage) from a UK retailer (probably "Grey") - however their T&Cs specifically state that taxes were paid. Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that they were telling porkies (though I have no reason to suspect they were) so I will add on the 20% VAT which would bring it to £922.80 - there is no import duty. On the day I ordered it WEX (and others) priced it at £1199.
Whether one believes that the VAT was paid or not there is a "Ripoff" going on somewhere in the chain - after all it is much more expensive for a small third party dealer to buy, import and ship cameras than it is for the "Official" importer.
Canon UK/EU are killing the high street retailer - not people who want to pay a fair price for given product.
Just my 2p.
Whether one believes that the VAT was paid or not there is a "Ripoff" going on somewhere in the chain - after all it is much more expensive for a small third party dealer to buy, import and ship cameras than it is for the "Official" importer.
Canon UK/EU are killing the high street retailer - not people who want to pay a fair price for given product.
Just my 2p.
Dave *
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Yep, all the staff the high street retailers have work for free, business rates is currently 0%, they don't pay rent for those high street locations and don't offer customer service and advice to anyone walking in off the street.
Meanwhile, your grey supplier is likely working from a house or at best a small warehouse somewhere, and has no staff or worries. Sells camera, pockets cash...
simonbarker
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You could apply the same logic to buying stolen goods but it wouldn't do you much good if you're caught.