Grey Imports...How to spot them?

[HoppyUK]

....Did you not read the part where I said "the end purchaser will almost certainly have no idea of what value the supplier has attributed to the goods"? You seem to be putting on the mantle of Judge and Jury and decreeing that the end purchaser is guilty of tax evasion irrespective of not knowing what value the supplier has attributed to the goods.

The declared 'value' should be the price you paid. That's the figure on which all taxes are based.

 

[HoppyUK]

....Er, I am neither "pretending" anything nor am I needing to "declare" anything thanks! Besides, all claims by HMRC are challengeable if you need to defend your position or circumstances and especially as the end purchaser will almost certainly have no idea of what value the supplier has attributed to the goods.

Furthermore, as someone commented earlier, none of us here have indisputable knowledge of the internal accounts of grey importers and so it's all speculation and mostly driven by those who are prejudiced against grey importers on whatever grounds they choose be it 'moral' or otherwise. [Prejudiced meaning pre judging]

Are you saying that everybody who buys from a grey importer is guilty of illegal tax evasion and regardless of each individual case?

If you purchase goods from outside the EU that are 20%-ish cheaper than normal UK retail, rest assured that you are guilty of tax evasion - at the very least. Theoretically, the penalties are quite daunting.

I'm not taking a moral position either way, just giving a wake-up call. And if you ever take your gear abroad, make sure you have the right bits of paper to hand on return as you can get clobbered at any time. If you don't, you run the risk of everything being confiscated though that's unlikely to be the end of it (fines, criminal record etc etc). It happened to me, and took several hours of serious unpleasantness before they were satisfied everything was legit. Not an experience I wish to repeat

 

[johnf3f]

Yep, all the staff the high street retailers have work for free, business rates is currently 0%, they don't pay rent for those high street locations and don't offer customer service and advice to anyone walking in off the street.


Meanwhile, your grey supplier is likely working from a house or at best a small warehouse somewhere, and has no staff or worries. Sells camera, pockets cash...

You have missed the point that I was trying to make - perhaps I didn't word it too well?

My point is that I/you can get cameras/lenses cheaper than the high street dealers can - let alone allowing them to make a reasonable profit (you would be amazed at how little they make). The reason is simple, they have to buy from Canon UK, who buy from Canon EU, who buy from Canon Japan.

Whichever way you look at it that is a lot of middle men taking their cut before our high street retailers even get the goods! Also note that they are paid for in Sterling to Canon EU then converted to Euros and then into Yen with all the conversions helping the money changers.

I fully support (as far as I can) UK bricks and mortar retailers - but I cannot afford to pay 20-40% more for an item due to Canon's UK/EU policies. Strangely Canon HK is happy to sell and ship cameras/lenses, with full payment of taxes, shipping costs etc on an individual basis for less than a UK camera shop can buy the same goods from the "Official" importer on a bulk basis - how on earth can they compete with that? Hence my contention that the problem is not UK taxes (high - but not unreasonable) but the sources from which high street camera shops are forced to buy from. Basically they are killing their own retailers.

Note this is not just a "Dig" against Canon as there are worse offenders out there in the photography world.

 

[HoppyUK]

You have missed the point that I was trying to make - perhaps I didn't word it too well?

My point is that I/you can get cameras/lenses cheaper than the high street dealers can - let alone allowing them to make a reasonable profit (you would be amazed at how little they make). The reason is simple, they have to buy from Canon UK, who buy from Canon EU, who buy from Canon Japan.

Whichever way you look at it that is a lot of middle men taking their cut before our high street retailers even get the goods! Also note that they are paid for in Sterling to Canon EU then converted to Euros and then into Yen with all the conversions helping the money changers.

I fully support (as far as I can) UK bricks and mortar retailers - but I cannot afford to pay 20-40% more for an item due to Canon's UK/EU policies. Strangely Canon HK is happy to sell and ship cameras/lenses, with full payment of taxes, shipping costs etc on an individual basis for less than a UK camera shop can buy the same goods from the "Official" importer on a bulk basis - how on earth can they compete with that? Hence my contention that the problem is not UK taxes (high - but not unreasonable) but the sources from which high street camera shops are forced to buy from. Basically they are killing their own retailers.

Note this is not just a "Dig" against Canon as there are worse offenders out there in the photography world.

There is no compulsion for a dealer to buy from Canon UK or Nikon UK etc. They can buy from wherever they like, and in some instances do. In real cases of excessive profiteering in other markets this has happened to such an extent it's forced the official UK importers to change their tune, but this hasn't happened in the photo market despite extreme pressure on sales revenues all round that is only getting worse.

The UK importers are far from innocent in this whole grey business but the overriding reason for higher prices across Europe is VAT. If there was fat to be trimmed, we'd see prices falling but in fact they're rising across the board. Camera manufacturers are struggling and even Samsung couldn't make it work despite producing arguably the best DSLR at the time they pulled out. They will not be the last.

 

[GordonM]

For those who think Canon UK are ripping them off you should have been around when JJ Silber were the importer. I bought a Canon winder for an AE1 at cost price in the 1980’s through the pro dealer I worked for. Cost was £70-75 plus vat, a week later Canon UK formed and the cost price dropped to £44!
Canon UK are not ripping people off in my opinion, simply as stated they have an expensive operation, bearing in mind they also import all Canon products such as office copiers, printers etc. Lots of dealers get caught every time a new camera, printer or other consumer electronic device comes out and prices get slashed on existing stock held. Sometimes importers give stock/ cash adjustments to help, but not often. The pro dealer I worked for went from holding 10+ bodies, several of each lenses to minimal stock to avoid being left out of pocket.
Also a last point to consider if the ‘reputable dealer’ you buy your ‘all taxes paid’ Grey import declare a $1500 camera as ‘worth’ $325 how professional are they?

 

[Eloise]

....Did you not read the part where I said "the end purchaser will almost certainly have no idea of what value the supplier has attributed to the goods"? You seem to be putting on the mantle of Judge and Jury and decreeing that the end purchaser is guilty of tax evasion irrespective of not knowing what value the supplier has attributed to the goods.

The end user knows the value because they have paid it. The value is (iirc) written on the customs declaration stuck on the parcel

 

[RedRobin]

The end user knows the value because they have paid it.

....Prices paid and therefore 'value' varies substantially according to the source. Retail prices may be recommended but are not permanently fixed. We live in a competitive marketplace and are free to buy from where we prefer and to suit our financial circumstances.

The value is (iirc) written on the customs declaration stuck on the parcel

....That assumes that the end purchaser receives the parcel from outside the UK/EU. Consequently, without such customs paperwork the end consumer does not know what you are referring to as the value. I don't want to be pedantic but 'value' usually means something other than 'price' or 'cost', but I understand your point I think.

 

[StewartR]

....Prices paid and therefore 'value' varies substantially according to the source. Retail prices may be recommended but are not permanently fixed. We live in a competitive marketplace and are free to buy from where we prefer and to suit our financial circumstances.

You're doing it again. You're arguing a minority viewpoint and you're sounding like you're in denial over something.

If an item has been purchased, then its value is by definition the price paid. The international postal services and customs services aren't interested in philosophical discussions about the "true value" of an object. If you paid £1500 for it, then by definition its value for the purposes of taxation is £1500. If the seller has indicated on the document on that it is "worth" £325 then they may have committed an offence. (I can't be sure because it may depend on the jurisdiction.) If the buyer does not declare it to HMRC and pay the appropriate amount of import duty and VAT, then they are definitely committing an offence. It really is that straightforward.

 

[HoppyUK]

....Prices paid and therefore 'value' varies substantially according to the source. Retail prices may be recommended but are not permanently fixed. We live in a competitive marketplace and are free to buy from where we prefer and to suit our financial circumstances.



....That assumes that the end purchaser receives the parcel from outside the UK/EU. Consequently, without such customs paperwork the end consumer does not know what you are referring to as the value. I don't want to be pedantic but 'value' usually means something other than 'price' or 'cost', but I understand your point I think.

Some people seem to be willfully ignoring the blatantly obvious. 'In denial' has been mentioned... Edit: and again LOL

The EU is not part of this debate, and neither is the US if only because their retailers generally play with a straight bat, declare the value honestly and duties get duly paid. This is a Far East Asia issue only.

 

[nuttyboy78]

I think we need to draw a line under this argument. It is not what the OP asked and we have seen this exact same conversation a million times before and if we didn't come to an agreement before, we are unlikely to do so now.

 

[nuttyboy78]

Everybody can go back to believing what they believe and the world continues to be a happier place...... or not

 

[StewartR]

Earlier in this thread I believe the similar retail price including VAT being charged by UK retailers for new kit was questioned. This looks like Retail Price Maintenance something which I thought was formally abolished. The fact it still looks like it must be that the manufacturer is able to exclude vendors who break ranks on pricing. (So Plus ca Change...)

It would certainly seem that the prices quoted by the major retailers are so close as to make no appreciable difference. I am surprised that they have not been pulled up about this.

I think you're both wide of the mark.

I have a reasonable amount of buying power with retailers due to the amount of equipment I buy. Or at least, you'd think I would have. Actually that usually turns out not to be the case, because most of the time most UK retailers are selling lenses on really thin margins. They just don't have much scope to cut their prices any further.

So that's one reason why so many retailers seem to charge the same prices: because the competitive environment means they're basically all selling for the lowest price they can afford.

I've often mentioned in the past that this doesn't hold true for newly released equipment. There, retailers make higher margins and there is scope for me to extract a discount. I have often wondered why UK retailers generally charge the manufacturer's "recommended" price on launch whereas overseas retailers don't. I've commented on TP previously that UK retailers seem to be better at extracting the maximum from the must-have-it-now-at-any-price brigade. But I've just discovered that in fact it may be legal in the UK/EU for the manufacturer to require them to sell at RRP for an initial period:

... where a manufacturer introduces a new product, RPM [Retail Price Maintenance] may be permitted for an introductory period where it provides retailers with the means and incentives to increase promotional efforts and expand overall demand for the product, so making the entry a success....

Source: https://www.out-law.com/en/topics/eu--competition/competition/recommending-and-agreeing-retail-prices-competition-law-puts-limits-on-how-far-you-can-go/

TL, DR: Retailers may collude with manufacturers on pricing when equipment is newly introduced, but this is not illegal. Retailers probably are not colluding on pricing at other times, and the reason they sell at similar prices is because they've all squeezed their costs and margins as hard as they can.

 

[RedRobin]

You're doing it again. You're arguing a minority viewpoint and you're sounding like you're in denial over something.

....I am merely playing devil's advocate and attempting to bust some people's prejudices.

Just because my opinion/suggestions may be a minority viewpoint doesn't make them less valid. Minority viewpoints aren't automatically wrong.

Anyroadup, I think that every one of us looks after our own best interests first and that includes manufacturers, retailers, suppliers, and end users wherever any of them are in the world. That's all that is happening and I don't think there's any more to be said - The subject of 'grey' is an old chestnut.

I am about to buy something made by Really Right Stuff via a Dutch seller - I better remember to check what it says on the parcel about duty paid.

 

[Phil V]

Just because my opinion/suggestions may be a minority viewpoint doesn't make them less valid. Minority viewpoints aren't automatically wrong.

But your viewpoint is factually incorrect, you can’t gloss over that with the inane ‘all opinions are equally valid’ nonsense.

Some viewpoints are indeed ‘automatically wrong’. The flat earth society has a valid reason for its existence, people are entitled to believe the earth is flat, but we are equally entitled to dismiss their view as nonsense.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

....I am merely playing devil's advocate and attempting to bust some people's prejudices.

Just because my opinion/suggestions may be a minority viewpoint doesn't make them less valid. Minority viewpoints aren't automatically wrong.

Anyroadup, I think that every one of us looks after our own best interests first and that includes manufacturers, retailers, suppliers, and end users wherever any of them are in the world. That's all that is happening and I don't think there's any more to be said - The subject of 'grey' is an old chestnut.

I am about to buy something made by Really Right Stuff via a Dutch seller - I better remember to check what it says on the parcel about duty paid.

No need to bother, we are not yet at the end of the brexit road, we can still buy things fom anywhere in the EU, with out concerns about vat, sales taxes or duties.
That is unlikely to be the case when we leave. It will give retailers here the chance to raise margins.. so why would they not?

 

[HoppyUK]

....I am merely playing devil's advocate and attempting to bust some people's prejudices.

Just because my opinion/suggestions may be a minority viewpoint doesn't make them less valid. Minority viewpoints aren't automatically wrong.

Anyroadup, I think that every one of us looks after our own best interests first and that includes manufacturers, retailers, suppliers, and end users wherever any of them are in the world. That's all that is happening and I don't think there's any more to be said - The subject of 'grey' is an old chestnut.

I am about to buy something made by Really Right Stuff via a Dutch seller - I better remember to check what it says on the parcel about duty paid.

Please get up to speed Robin. You keep going on about the EU and US, but this issue is nothing to do with either - it's exclusively an East Asia problem. See post #129

 

[batemansxxxb]

I'm not worried about grey imports whether new or used,except the grey market has always been cheaper & with used values quite high now due to the exchange rate & camera manufacturers increasing their new prices because of this,there is a market for getting back most if not all of the original purchase price,unfortunately it's a sellers market now (well if you're a buyer that is) i've been looking at Canon 6D bodies on ebay,i only spotted that it was a grey import by the charger,which has 2 pins as opposed to the uk charger which has a detachable power cord

 

[RedRobin]

Please get up to speed Robin. You keep going on about the EU and US, but this issue is nothing to do with either - it's exclusively an East Asia problem. See post #129

....Apologies - I have been banging on with the assumption that grey imports meant also from territories other than exclusively East Asia. What about Hong Kong's DigitalRev who are a TP advertiser?

Sometimes when I have bought from the US the courier has been obliged to insist I pay extras (tax/duty) before they hand the goods to me, and other times not. Luck of the draw methinks.

But your viewpoint is factually incorrect, you can’t gloss over that with the inane ‘all opinions are equally valid’ nonsense.

Some viewpoints are indeed ‘automatically wrong’. The flat earth society has a valid reason for its existence, people are entitled to believe the earth is flat, but we are equally entitled to dismiss their view as nonsense.

.... I was referring to the principle that minority opinions generally are not automatically wrong in response to you (Phil) saying that I had a minority viewpoint and hence I must be wrong. It's all about how you present your case. But never mind, it's all very trivial and of course we are all entitled to think whatever we prefer to think and to buy from where we prefer.

Perhaps what bothers me is that typical English notion that if someone else is getting something (such as an advantage) which they are not getting (or able to get) then it's wrong and must be illegal even before being proved either way.

 

[wezza13]

There seems to be an awful lot of saints in this thread.

If you can get something at a bargain price, why not?

 

[StewartR]

If you can get something at a bargain price, why not?

If you can walk out of Tesco with a trolley load of groceries without paying for them, why not?

 

[jamesev]

There seems to be an awful lot of saints in this thread.

If you can get something at a bargain price, why not?

That’s like saying if an odd job man says he’ll do it for £100 cash or it’ll be £120 if you want to give him a cheque. You know exactly why but the £100 is the bargain of course.

 

[Eloise]

Please get up to speed Robin. You keep going on about the EU and US, but this issue is nothing to do with either - it's exclusively an East Asia problem. See post #129

Not exclusively East Asia, grey imports are any “parallel” imports. EU is not considered grey market due to the the EU single market, though importing from USA would be grey market.

But let’s get it clear, grey market is not illegal. If a retailer in HK or USA are selling at a lower price than U.K. dealers, there is nothing wrong / illegal from purchasing from them. What IS “wrong” / illegal is if import duty or VAT is being evaded by means of miss-declaring goods on customs declarations.

Perhaps what bothers me is that typical English notion that if someone else is getting something (such as an advantage) which they are not getting (or able to get) then it's wrong and must be illegal even before being proved either way.

Not universally, but in many cases it has been shown (if not legally proven) that these companies are avoiding tax and duty.

Did you see the Panorama link I posted above? Did you read the comments from @Canon Bob and (quoted by) @Dave1 where companies were misdeclaring the (monetary) value paid for cameras?

 

[jojo90]

Personally I pay a ridiculous amount of tax

• I don’t have kids
• I’ve never had any dealings with police/fire department
• I’ve been to the doctor maybe 4 times in my adult life, I’ve medical through work if anything serious happens.
• I’ve paid off my student debts
• I’ve never claimed unemployment benefit, or any other benefit

I get pretty much zero benefit from the thousands in tax I pay out each year, I’m not bitter but equally I feel no guilt saving a few quid buying Voigtlander lenses when I’m in Thailand or apple / instax film in the US, and saving a few bob.

To OP, wouldn’t worry.... it’s all the same kit, if you buy hardly used grey import it’s better than abused domestic, 2nd hand just get the best deal you can and enjoy.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Not exclusively East Asia, grey imports are any “parallel” imports. EU is not considered grey market due to the the EU single market, though importing from USA would be grey market.

But let’s get it clear, grey market is not illegal. If a retailer in HK or USA are selling at a lower price than U.K. dealers, there is nothing wrong / illegal from purchasing from them. What IS “wrong” / illegal is if import duty or VAT is being evaded by means of miss-declaring goods on customs declarations.

Not universally, but in many cases it has been shown (if not legally proven) that these companies are avoiding tax and duty.

Did you see the Panorama link I posted above? Did you read the comments from @Canon Bob and (quoted by) @Dave1 where companies were misdeclaring the (monetary) value paid for cameras?

Do you not think customs is aware of these public posts saying suppliers are avoiding vat and duty.?
Do you not think at least one company would have been investigated and prosecuted by now.?
I think that mostly these stories are apocryphal and no law has been broken. Though probably pushed to the limit.
I simply do not believe that our investigators would not have come up with "something" by now
But zilch......
Grey imports are absolutely legal however much official distributers do not like it.
.

 

[HoppyUK]

Not exclusively East Asia, grey imports are any “parallel” imports. EU is not considered grey market due to the the EU single market, though importing from USA would be grey market.

Yes, I know. But I said the grey market 'problem' was East Asia

But let’s get it clear, grey market is not illegal. If a retailer in HK or USA are selling at a lower price than U.K. dealers, there is nothing wrong / illegal from purchasing from them. What IS “wrong” / illegal is if import duty or VAT is being evaded by means of miss-declaring goods on customs declarations.

Not universally, but in many cases it has been shown (if not legally proven) that these companies are avoiding tax and duty.

Did you see the Panorama link I posted above? Did you read the comments from @Canon Bob and (quoted by) @Dave1 where companies were misdeclaring the (monetary) value paid for cameras?

That Panorama programme was shocking. Shows how easy it is and the sheer scale of the problem. It's rife, all over the consumer electronics sector particularly. As I've posted before, a friend showed me the customs declaration that came with an imported Canon 7D that said gift, value $10, made in China - that's three complete lies.

The reluctance of both government and HMRC to act on this is hard to fathom, but I wonder if Brexit will finally put an end to it?

Terry, watch that Panorma link

 

[simonbarker]

Grey imports are absolutely legal however much official distributers do not like it..

Grey imports are completely legal, the debate isn't around the act of importing.

You're required to pay the relevant taxes for doing so and if you don't that's tax evasion.

I'm not interested in what you decide to do, I'm simply pointing out that making up whatever excuses doesn't change the legal requirements.

 

[Dave *]

Personally I pay a ridiculous amount of tax

• I don’t have kids
• I’ve never had any dealings with police/fire department
• I’ve been to the doctor maybe 4 times in my adult life, I’ve medical through work if anything serious happens.
• I’ve paid off my student debts
• I’ve never claimed unemployment benefit, or any other benefit

I get pretty much zero benefit from the thousands in tax I pay out each year, I’m not bitter but equally I feel no guilt saving a few quid buying Voigtlander lenses when I’m in Thailand or apple / instax film in the US, and saving a few bob.

To OP, wouldn’t worry.... it’s all the same kit, if you buy hardly used grey import it’s better than abused domestic, 2nd hand just get the best deal you can and enjoy.

That must be the weakest excuse to justify tax evasion in a long time.

So you want the NHS to hold off building a hospital or employing doctors/nurses/radiologists until the day before you're diagnosed with a rare (and expensive) illness or are involved in a serious RTC?

They mustn't buy any ambulances or employ paramedics, build fire stations, buy fire engines and employ firemen and you want a special opt out for the police to stop preventing crime around your house/office/travel routes until you need them?

You don't use roads or public buildings? You don't hope that on your trip to Thailand if you get into a bit of bother you can request consular services?

I could go on, but won't, you really are a "special" type though...

 

[Eloise]

Do you not think customs is aware of these public posts saying suppliers are avoiding vat and duty.?
Do you not think at least one company would have been investigated and prosecuted by now.?
I think that mostly these stories are apocryphal and no law has been broken. Though probably pushed to the limit.
I simply do not believe that our investigators would not have come up with "something" by now
But zilch......

They know it happens... just any investigation has to be balanced against any likely gain in tax revenue. Do you think HMRC have the resources to check every parcel that comes into the country?

And the limited resources they have are better spent investigating and prosecuting other tax evasion.

Grey imports are absolutely legal however much official distributers do not like it.

Actually a ruling from the (UK) Supreme Court declared that grey imports could actually fall foul of trademark legislations...

Look I’m not moralising or trying to tell YOU (or anyone else) what you should and shouldn’t do. But to try to justify grey imports which on the balance of probability are avoiding tax / duty as being legal is just wrong. The same as driving at 85MPH on the M1 is something you are unlikely to be prosecuted for doesn’t make it legal to drive at 85MPH.

 

[Phil V]

The only non existent ‘mystery’ here

The reluctance of both government and HMRC to act on this is hard to fathom, but I wonder if Brexit will finally put an end to it?

...

There are millions of items come into the UK every day, HMRC have limited resources and have to assess the benefit of all their actions.

They’re well aware of grey market suppliers but the cost of searching through thousands of boxes to build a case is hardly likely to be worth the effort. If we want to ensure there’s zero tax loopholes we have to invest heavily into HMRC rather than trying to get them to do less with less but hoping they’ll get better at it.

 

[tijuana taxi]

Just wonder how many people who knowingly fleece the taxman also whinge about benefits cheats and health tourists.

Is there a difference?

 

[jamesev]

Just wonder how many people who knowingly fleece the taxman also whinge about benefits cheats and health tourists.

Is there a difference?

Yes one they whinge about is corporations that legally avoid millions through the rules set by law, the other are individuals saving hundreds by illegally throwing the dice of risk v reward.

Many just see big bad capitalists not contributing whilst saving hundreds is just going after the bargain.

 

[Dave *]

Yes one they whinge about is corporations that legally avoid millions through the rules set by law, the other are individuals saving hundreds by illegally throwing the dice of risk v reward.

Many just see big bad capitalists not contributing whilst saving hundreds is just going after the bargain.

Though people often miss the distinction that tax avoidance is legal while tax evasion is a crime.

 

[RedRobin]

Did you see the Panorama link I posted above? Did you read the comments from @Canon Bob and (quoted by) @Dave1 where companies were misdeclaring the (monetary) value paid for cameras?

....Yes, I read their comments but I cannot justify believing that ALL grey suppliers are as guilty as many people here are stating as indisputable fact.

No, I didn't watch Panorama because I invariably find that Panorama journalists are never truly objective and they set out to persuade the gullible and fickle public that someone is guilty whether their case has been heard and decided in a formal court or not. In other words they behave like a lynch mob. They do not have my respect.

 

[SsSsSsSsSnake]

 

[Eloise]

More (alleged) tax avoiders there!

(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_Cakes#Categorisation_as_cake_or_biscuit_for_VAT)

 

[jamesev]

Though people often miss the distinction that tax avoidance is legal while tax evasion is a crime.

True, however avoidance is usually in the incomprehensible quantities for many (millions) which they equate to what they could do with millions whilst they are saving a few tangible hundred.

 

[SsSsSsSsSnake]

More (alleged) tax avoiders there!

(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_Cakes#Categorisation_as_cake_or_biscuit_for_VAT)

Eloise,are you in the legal profession?

 

[HoppyUK]

....Yes, I read their comments but I cannot justify believing that ALL grey suppliers are as guilty as many people here are stating as indisputable fact.

It's very easy to tell who's above board and who isn't. If their prices are circa 20%-ish below normal UK retail, then they're not.

No, I didn't watch Panorama because I invariably find that Panorama journalists are never truly objective and they set out to persuade the gullible and fickle public that someone is guilty whether their case has been heard and decided in a formal court or not. In other words they behave like a lynch mob. They do not have my respect.

Priceless

And your more reliable sources of information are?

 

[RedRobin]

More (alleged) tax avoiders there!

(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_Cakes#Categorisation_as_cake_or_biscuit_for_VAT)

....The Jaffa Cake case is ludicrous. Absolutely bonkers. You have to laugh

 

[RedRobin]

Priceless

And your more reliable sources of information are?

....I don't have any interest in seeking such information and certainly not from the media - None of it is reliable. Anyway, life is too short.