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With Canon bodies the 3rd figure of the serial number denotes the original (intended) market;
1) Asia
2) North America
3) Europe
Grey Imports...How to spot them?
- Thread starter PauBass
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With Canon bodies the 3rd figure of the serial number denotes the original (intended) market;
1) Asia
2) North America
3) Europe
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....Hear! Hear! I have had and continue to have the same excellent aftersales service from both Wex (normal retail prices fixed by distributor Canon UK) and HDEW (pale grey importer). I have even had good experience of repairs via HDEW (using their warranty A.J. Johnstone of Glasgow) when Park Cameras let me down. HDEW have limited stocks but are usually my first port of call, then Wex, depending what I am wanting to buy and which has it or can get it.
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GreenNinja67
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Nothing "pale" about HDEW
I don't think customers of HDEW gives a rat's behind what shade of grey they are really.
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Nothing "pale" about HDEW
....I only call them "pale" to mean that they have a bricks-n-mortar presence in England which you are free to visit, rather than being just a foreign based company with all the potential problems which that can have after sales. HDEW used to be a high street retailer many years ago but had the foresight to see how retail was evolving.
In my experience as a gear slut, Park and Jessops are the very worst regarding customer service and customer service both before and after sales is of very major importance in every business, not just camera gear.
Wex's pre sales advice service is second to none as there is absolutely no attempt to get you to part with any money.
gramps
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Quite possibly but there is a perception that somehow they are different to the likes of Panamoz, DigitalRev et al, when that is not the case ... but there are many posts on here with comments about their status inc their T&C's about the buyer being the importer and their use of a VAT No registered in a different company name.
nuttyboy78
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If I ask for a VAT certificate and they send me one, does that not mean VAT has been paid for that particular item? Unless of course, they are lying about having paid it.
One point from the op seems to be Grey costs less when purchased new, so therefore a used Grey should cost less? This is clearly an impossible arguement, after all if you buy a camera on first release you pay a premium usually, does that make it worth more? Of course not. Buy from PC World Currys and you’ll pay top price, until there’s a sale. Both cameras would be worth the same to p/x sell. Initial price is meaningless, even for a Grey camera as you’re only getting, usually a cursory check the camera works at most stores and a limited warranty from them.
gramps
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I have no idea, but don't you find it odd that a supplier can charge the same low amount for an item including VAT as a 'Hong Kong' dealer who does not include VAT?
May be all fine but I've yet to find anyone who can explain it ... a thread some time back included the actual company name for which the VAT number applied and it wasn't HDEW ... personally I can't explain it and as said can't find anyone else who has been able to.
Does anyone know what the rate is for import duty?
nuttyboy78
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I agree. I ordered a lens from them at the cheapest price I could find and called them beforehand to check if they would be sending me UK stock and whether I could have a VAT certificate. They said yes to both which reassured me that I wouldn’t be the importer if they were sending me stock that was already in the UK.
No VAT certificate in the box so I emailed them and they promptly emailed me one. The certificate actually said VAT paid (20% of the already low price I had paid). I don’t know how they do it unless they only pay VAT on the products that customers ask for receipts for. Maybe the volume of sales makes it a viable business model.
gramps
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....How about the idea that Canon UK is the UK distributor and decides the normal retail prices? If imports are not going through Canon UK then why should they be restricted in their consumer retail price? Don't we live in a free market?
For camera bodies (or kits including a body and lens) its zero import duty. For lenses there is an import duty of (iirc and this is off top of my head) 5%. Same for cameras designated as for video recording there is 5% import duty. On top of the import duty is 20% VAT on the whole amount (cost of the item inc. postage plus any duty).
(Caveat IANAL and all from my recollection so no comment here should be considered "fact").
gramps
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Have a look at 'Camerapricebuster', if you can see a 'free market' you are a better man than me ... however I think you have got hold of the wrong end of the stick
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Have a look at 'Camerapricebuster', if you can see a 'free market' you are a better man than me ... however I think you have got hold of the wrong end of the stick
....Not for the first time, gramps, although we are both fluent I think it is in different languages. What has Camerapricebuster got to do with it? Don't they merely compare prices from a restricted field?
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That doesn't mean it's a grey import. You could have been travelling and purchased one and then returned to the UK etc and paid the VAT and import taxes on it. The term "grey import" refers to items purchased and imported from a source outside the country where VAT and import taxes have not been paid.
gramps
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CPB compares prices in the UK market, yes ... are you saying that a Canon or Nikon camera is so much cheaper in Asia (for example) that even with the addition of UK VAT it can be sold here for 'grey' market prices, e.g. Nikon D850 £2639 (DigitalRev HK) against £3499 (WEX) = £860 difference?
No it doesn't... Grey Import is any item purchased outside the "official", designated by the manufacturer, import channel. Grey Import doesn't say anything about if VAT and taxes have been paid or not.
The correct term (more legal based) is actually parallel import or personal import.
Grey Importing is not illegal. Evasion of tax and import duty IS illegal however (and the responsibility of the importer who in the case of companies like HDEW, Panamoz and DigitalRev) is the end purchaser.
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nuttyboy78
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I know that’s what their website says but in my opinion, that only applies when they import the product from overseas after you place the order. If the product is already in the country and they are delivering from stock, regardless of their disclaimer, they are the importer. Obviously this is open to interpretation.
Anyway, this thread is going down the route of every thread that mentions the words ‘grey import’
gramps
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Many sellers of 'grey' equipment have stock in the UK, that's so they can say 'Delivered by Royal Mail' or the like ... where do you think they get it from?
It doesn't change the import situation, HDEW clearly state that if you buy from their website YOU are the importer of the goods you buy, not them.
The only "interpretation" (for tax purposes) that matters is between HMRC and the courts.
At the end of the day, I don't think Nikon, Canon, et al actually want to stop grey market imports... As I understand the ruling, the UK Supreme Court ruled that parallel imports of clothing, etc. breached trademark restrictions; and I can't see how that ruling wouldn't apply to cameras with "Nikon", "Canon", etc. blazoned across them.
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I didn't reference the importation status, simply that the serial number represented Canon's intended market for the body.
GreenNinja67
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Precisely why I ordered over the phone.
I asked if it was in stock and they told me it would take 4 business days to reach me.
Nothing else was mentioned.
nuttyboy78
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So if they send me a document saying that they have paid VAT for the item I ordered, what is my obligation to HMRC?
Assuming the VAT document you have is valid, and shows the correct purchase price, etc. then you should be covered (though I believe you would still be liable for the VAT / tax should it be later shown that HDEW hadn't paid the VAT).
Out of interest; are you saying you have had VAT receipt from HDEW? If so, what VAT number does it give, and what company name does it give?
nuttyboy78
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Yes I have but will have to check the number and name once I get home. They sent it to me as soon as I asked for it. I can’t believe they would lie about paying VAT when they could so easily be caught out and penalised for it.
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Vat No. 671 9479 88 - HDEW Cameras
That was for a single purchase I made in 2015, a subsequent check showed that the VAT No was for another company name.
Not sure what the implications of a company being 'Dormant' are but the following link (if accurate) is puzzling.
https://companycheck.co.uk/company/07412635/HDEW-CAMERAS-LIMITED/companies-house-data
Oh I'm sure they paid VAT on something channeled through some company ... but HDEW Cameras is NOT a UK registered company (HDEW Cameras Ltd is a dormant company). They don't routinely sent a VAT receipt however which suggests they don't routinely declare VAT.
At the end of the day, HMRC apparently don't care or at least don't have the resources to tackle the problem.
If the camera is sent from HDEW in the UK this doesn't apply ... but if you have received goods from outside the UK and the customs declaration is not filled in correctly - i.e. the goods are not described correctly or the value is incorrect - then YOU as the recipient are liable.
gramps
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Why not if HDEW are merely acting as 'sourcing agents' and consequentially you are the importer ,,, as their website declares?
nuttyboy78
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I believe I read somewhere on this forum that it is at the point at which the camera enters the country that liability to pay import duties and VAT applies.
If it is being delivered directly to you from overseas then the customer is liable but if it is being delivered to a warehouse in the UK before being sent to the customer then the company is liable.
Of course, this is third hand info from armchair experts, so pinches of salt apply.
Thats HDEW Cameras LTD - though the company officials are the same as for VALIDHIRST.
Companies House describes a dormant company as: “…if it has had no ‘significant accounting transactions’ during the accounting period. A ‘significant accounting transaction’ is one which the company should enter in its accounting records.”
That VAT number is (according the VIES - http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/ ) registered to VALIDHIRST LTD !! SECONDS OUT at the address given for HDEW CAMERAS on their website.
Its all a tangled web and indication that something untoward is happening (IMO) though I suspect they stay just the right side of the law...
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nuttyboy78
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Companies often trade under a different parent company. For eg. when your credit card statement shows a different company that has taken your money from the one you shopped at. Maybe that’s what this is.
nuttyboy78
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The companycheck link that Gramps posted shows that HDEW has 2 directors. Click on the first one and it looks like he also a director of Validhirst Limited and has been for 21 years. Like I said, I believe this is the parent company of HDEW cameras and it is quite common for companies to do this.
Sorry but no; HDEW Cameras (the website) is NOT HDEW Cameras LTD - HDEW Cameras LTD is a dormant company. HDEW Cameras (the website) is actually VALIDHIRST LTD (and if you find the right place they are VALIDHIRST T/A HDEW Cameras).
Its not a case of parent company (an example of parent company would be PC World being part of Dixons Carphone) ... its a case of two companies that are owned by one set of individuals.
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dave_bass5
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No disrespect to WEX, but im 100% sure thery dont know a grey import lens when they have one. This is from personal experience in trading a couple in with them over the past couple of years.
As far as Amazon vs Gray. Amazon avoid paying what they can. This is down to loopholes in the law. Right or wrong, they are not breaking the law. Buying grey, you are purposely avoiding paying VAT and import duty, and i believe this is breaking the law. Just saying and definitely not judging. .
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GreenNinja67
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I like that.
My next lens will be a Gary import.
My next lens will be a Gary import.
dave_bass5
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LOL, well both are dodgy......