German Airplane Crashes In French Alps

Llamaman said:
But presumably the prosecutors do, but aren't saying. Which seems a little odd.
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I don`t know, i`ll wait until the official report comes out.
 
It is difficult to accept that the FO had a sudden impulse to fly the plane into the ground when the captain left the flight deck. Hard to see how anyone doing such a thing had not thought about it beforehand and had a plan of sorts. Suicide is usually a solitary activity that sometimes unintentionally involves third party casualties. However, to kill a plane full of people in order to commit suicide is really very peculiar.
 
Re locking out of the cockpit and always having someone else with the pilot, it isn't that straight forward necessarily.

A Jetblue first officer had to lock out a captain who had gone berserk a while back. No time to invite cabin crew in when a struggle is underway. The captain was then restrained by passengers and crew until the FO landed.

Very sad incident this :( thoughts to the families of all involved
 
James Wheeler said:
Re locking out of the cockpit and always having someone else with the pilot, it isn't that straight forward necessarily.

A Jetblue first officer had to lock out a captain who had gone berserk a while back. No time to invite cabin crew in when a struggle is underway. The captain was then restrained by passengers and crew until the FO landed.

Very sad incident this :( thoughts to the families of all involved
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Yes, very far from straightforward. The person brought into the cockpit (hopefully someone who does not have "issues") would need to be strong enough to overpower the remaining "wayward" pilot and know how to cancel the actions that had been taken to crash the plane.
 
arclight said:
....Suicide is usually a solitary activity that sometimes unintentionally involves third party casualties. However, to kill a plane full of people in order to commit suicide is really very peculiar.
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Solitude may be the norm for suicide events but there's also the reported desire for notoriety to be considered too.

Bob
 
Llamaman said:
But presumably the prosecutors do, but aren't saying. Which seems a little odd.
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Why? No information automatically is a matter of public record at this point, and nor should it be IMO.
A thorough investigation needs to be carried out; evidence studied.
The only parties that ever truly need the full facts are the airline, the families, the aviation authorities and perhaps insurance companies.
 
arclight said:
Yes, very far from straightforward. The person brought into the cockpit (hopefully someone who does not have "issues") would need to be strong enough to overpower the remaining "wayward" pilot and know how to cancel the actions that had been taken to crash the plane.
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They wouldn't need to have any flight knowledge as their only real purpose is to unlock the door again to allow access
 
mattyg said:
They wouldn't need to have any flight knowledge as their only real purpose is to unlock the door again to allow access
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How could that be achieved if the pilot chose to keep his hand over the door lock control switch or overpower the person.
Also, what would a member of the cabin crew do if the pilot simply said that there is a loss of cabin pressure and it was necessary to descend to a low altitude then sets the aircraft on an automatic descent that only he knows (until it is too late to avoid) will bring about a crash . What cabin crew would argue with that and who would want them to.
Having someone on the flightdeck who is not flight crew tamper with any control is asking for trouble.

Having cabin crew sit in during pilot absence is good for getting help if the remaining pilot takes ill, but not much else.
 
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StewartR said:
It's not unusual for people with depression to want to end their own lives.

It's very unusual for people with depression to want to end other people's lives.

Now clearly the Germanwings copilot had some problems. But it's totally wrong to tar all depression sufferers with the same brush, which is what the tabloids did and what you seem to be doing.
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Hmmm actually it is not unusual at all. A fairly common link in mass shootings/killings is chronic depression. That is not saying that the majority of people with a clinical depression do that, but there is sufficient evidence to suggest that the majority of mass killers suffered from one.

Not demonising anything but when working on the central nervous system product group in the early 90s we had many studies going on in that area as some tried to link it to our medication which was nonsense.
 
dejongj said:
Hmmm actually it is not unusual at all. A fairly common link in mass shootings/killings is chronic depression. .
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I'm not doubting your knowledge (ok maybe I am, but with the greatest of respect).......But I really would need to see empirical evidence of such.
 
viv1969 said:
I'm not doubting your knowledge (ok maybe I am, but with the greatest of respect).......But I really would need to see empirical evidence of such.
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Seek and thy shall find evidence either way :) as I said, it doesn't mean everyone with a clinical depression is a mass murderer.
 
dejongj said:
Seek and thy shall find evidence either way :) as I said, it doesn't mean everyone with a clinical depression is a mass murderer.
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Exactly. No more than every person of middle eastern persuasion is a suicide bomber. :-)
 
arclight said:
How could that be achieved if the pilot chose to keep his hand over the door lock control switch or overpower the person.
Also, what would a member of the cabin crew do if the pilot simply said that there is a loss of cabin pressure and it was necessary to descend to a low altitude then sets the aircraft on an automatic descent that only he knows (until it is too late to avoid) will bring about a crash . What cabin crew would argue with that and who would want them to.
Having someone on the flightdeck who is not flight crew tamper with any control is asking for trouble.

Having cabin crew sit in during pilot absence is good for getting help if the remaining pilot takes ill, but not much else.
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Don't forget the other pilot is only not on the FD to go to the toilet. Crashing a plane from FL380 takes more than a few seconds. Plenty of time for the other pilot to get back into the FD IF the door is unlocked.

If the pilot keeps his hand on the lock switch, then the CC could still just unlock the door via the handle on the door.
 
stevewestern said:
Seems the co pilot told his girlfriend that one day the whole world would know his name.

Bet that helps the families of passengers.
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Sorry, I'd rather the identity of the pilot was remembered. Reports are he tried to break down the door with an axe on finding himself locked out and continued until the crash.
 
Byker28i said:
Sorry, I'd rather the identity of the pilot was remembered. Reports are he tried to break down the door with an axe on finding himself locked out and continued until the crash.
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The reports about the axe are false. As the only Axe available is the other side of that locked door. However somehow he had access to a crow bar???

However I'm fully behind you on the memory of the Pilot
 
mattyg said:
Don't forget the other pilot is only not on the FD to go to the toilet. Crashing a plane from FL380 takes more than a few seconds. Plenty of time for the other pilot to get back into the FD IF the door is unlocked.

If the pilot keeps his hand on the lock switch, then the CC could still just unlock the door via the handle on the door.
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I think the door is deadlocked if the switch on the centre consul is put to LOCK, but I am not certain.
It took the A320 eight minutes to descend from FL380 to impact. It was only in the last minute or so that (we are told) screaming was heard and attempts to get into the cockpit were made (heard). Looks like no one got alarmed very quickly.

What is strange is that the VCR picked up the captain giving control of the plane to the FO and his seat sliding followed by a door opening and closing. The FO's breathing was recorded as was the ground proximity warning indicator as the plane got dangerously near the deck. What about the door buzzer when the Captain tried to get back in.
Normal procedure for re-entering the flightdeck is for the returning pilot to use the external keypad that causes a buzzer to sound in the cockpit. No mention of that being heard in the recording.

Unless supporting evidence from the FDR is obtained it appears like a firm conclusion could be beyond reach.

Early days in respect of the A320 crash, but it is the 3rd crash in a short time (the other two being the Malaysian incidents) where there are more questions than answers.

Part of the problem here is that all information is coming via the media. There could be mistakes and omissions.
 
Only one of the Malaysian flights has more questions than answers.
The second it seems can be easily accounted for by the butcher of Grozny.

Or do i recall the wrong flight?
 
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Byker28i said:
Sorry, I'd rather the identity of the pilot was remembered. Reports are he tried to break down the door with an axe on finding himself locked out and continued until the crash.
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My post was ironic. The co pilots desire to be remembered are no help whatsoever to anyone affected by what he seems to have done.
 
stevewestern said:
My post was ironic. The co pilots desire to be remembered are no help whatsoever to anyone affected by what he seems to have done.
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Nor are his desires for notoriety even known.
 
viv1969 said:
Why? No information automatically is a matter of public record at this point, and nor should it be IMO.
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I agree with you, but the prosecutors have already divulged a lot of information, such as the existence of the sick notes and the date covered by it, and even speculation about them (the deliberate concealment quote). Yet the pertinent detail of what the sick note covered is being withheld.
It would be better to reveal nothing or reveal all. Revealing cherry-picked details looks worryingly like 'shaping' the story, which as someone who lives just down the road from Stockwell tube station is a situation that sits uncomfortably with me.
 
They're investigators surely.
At this current point is anyone being prosecuted? (Forgive me....I haven't checked the news today. )
 
viv1969 said:
Only one of the Malaysian flights has more questions than answers.
The second it seems can be easily accounted for by the butcher of Grozny.

Or do i recall the wrong flight?
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Maybe my fault Ruth. There was the B777 that has disappeared without a trace. Poss. in the Indian Ocean. Next one was the one you refer to in Ukraine. Then there was the A320 Air Indonesia en route Singapore. No conclusion on that one despite fairly quick recovery of CVR & FDR.
 
mattyg said:
The reports about the axe are false. As the only Axe available is the other side of that locked door. However somehow he had access to a crow bar???

However I'm fully behind you on the memory of the Pilot
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Axes were removed in relation to terrorist threat. Seems to be an insulated crowbar for fire fighting carried in the cabin. That is a bit odd since passengers are restricted on what they can take aboard in case said items could become weapons. Don't need to take weapons if a crowbar is provided :bat:
 
[QUOTE"= Arclight, post: 6791944, member: 13628"]Axes were removed in relation to terrorist threat. Seems to be an insulated crowbar for fire fighting carried in the cabin. That is a bit odd since passengers are restricted on what they can take aboard in case said items could become weapons. Don't need to take weapons if a crowbar is provided :bat:[/QUOTE]

So there's a crowbar on board.
Would you know where to find it?
Is every mode of transport to be made psycho proof?
Utter rubbish.
You cannot legislate for every single possible outcome.
Everything in life carries risks.
 
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viv1969 said:
They're investigators surely.
At this current point is anyone being prosecuted? (Forgive me....I haven't checked the news today. )
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Nope, both the BBC and Reuters have referred to 'prosecutors' from Dusseldorf who searched his home.
 
Llamaman said:
Nope, both the BBC and Reuters have referred to 'prosecutors' from Dusseldorf who searched his home.
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Right.
And news agencies are renowned for carrying the facts rather than that which is "sexy".
 
viv1969 said:
Right.
And news agencies are renowned for carrying the facts rather than that which is "sexy".
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I suspect it's more likely to be a quirk of the German legal system.
 
Llamaman said:
Nope, both the BBC and Reuters have referred to 'prosecutors' from Dusseldorf who searched his home.
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viv1969 said:
Right.
And news agencies are renowned for carrying the facts rather than that which is "sexy".
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In germany the "public prosecutors office" (the 'Staatsanwaltschaft') has its own investigators which it uses for high profile or politically sensitive investigations - so techincally you are both right - they are investigators from the prosecutors officer
 
viv1969 said:
[QUOTE"= Arclight, post: 6791944, member: 13628"]Axes were removed in relation to terrorist threat. Seems to be an insulated crowbar for fire fighting carried in the cabin. That is a bit odd since passengers are restricted on what they can take aboard in case said items could become weapons. Don't need to take weapons if a crowbar is provided :bat:
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So there's a crowbar on board.
Would you know where to find it?
Is every mode of transport to be made psycho proof?
Utter rubbish.
You cannot legislate for every single possible outcome.
Everything in life carries risks.[/QUOTE]

Trouble is these days we live in a world of blame, it has to be someone's fault and then action needs to be taken. This is forgetting that human nature is very complex. Some people are obviously dangerous but many are not so obvious. Yes, we could ban everyone with depression for being responsible for others but that's like using a hammer on a nut. What about joe public, do we ban everyone with depression from driving in case they mow down a bus stop tomorrow?

Aside from daily and complex texts this sort of thing cannot be prevented
 
cambsno said:
So there's a crowbar on board.
Would you know where to find it?
Is every mode of transport to be made psycho proof?
Utter rubbish.
You cannot legislate for every single possible outcome.
Everything in life carries risks.
Click to expand...

Trouble is these days we live in a world of blame, it has to be someone's fault and then action needs to be taken. This is forgetting that human nature is very complex. Some people are obviously dangerous but many are not so obvious. Yes, we could ban everyone with depression for being responsible for others but that's like using a hammer on a nut. What about joe public, do we ban everyone with depression from driving in case they mow down a bus stop tomorrow?

Aside from daily and complex texts this sort of thing cannot be prevented[/QUOTE]

Perhaps I've had one cup of coffee too many but that doesn't make sense to me.
 
it appears from this article http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...tigation-press-conference-live-updates-4u9525 that the french also have a public prosecutor involved in invetigating the crash - he is named as Brice Robin so it should be easy to check who he is and what his function is

(or you can just believe the media who say that he is procureur de la République de Marseille that is 'the prosecutor of Marseille' ) as in germany the french office of 'prosecution' deals with more than just purely prosecuting people , again this is easily checked for anyone sad enough not to be able to admit they might be wrong

this is from wiki - but there are numerous other sources for those who can be bothered to look for them

France[edit]
In France, the Office of the Prosecutor includes a Chief Prosecutor, or Procureur de la République (or procureur général in an appellate court or in the Supreme Court) assisted by deputy prosecutors (avocats généraux) and assistant prosecutors (substituts). The Chief Prosecutor generally initiates preliminary investigations and, if necessary, asks an examining judge, or juge d'instruction, be assigned to lead a formal judicial investigation. When an investigation is led by a judge, the prosecutor plays a supervisory role, defining the scope of the crimes being examined by the judge and law enforcement forces. Like defense counsel, the chief prosecutor may petition or motion for further investigation. During criminal proceedings, prosecutors are responsible for presenting the case at trial to either the Bench or jury. They generally suggest advisory sentencing guidelines, but it remains at the Court's discretion to decide its own sentence, increased or reduced as it sees fit. In addition, prosecutors have several administrative duties.
Prosecutors are considered by French law as magistrates (as in most civil law countries). While the defense and plaintiff are both represented by common lawyers, sitting on the ground in the courtroom, the prosecutor sits on a platform as the court does, although he doesn't participate in deliberation. Judges and prosecutors are trained in the same school, and regard each other as colleagues.

Germany[edit]
In Germany, the Staatsanwalt (literally 'state attorney') is a life-tenured public official in the senior judicial service. The Staatsanwalt heads pre-trial criminal investigations, decides whether to press a charge or drop it, and represents the government in criminal courts. He not only has the "professional responsibility" not to withhold exculpatory information, but is also required by law to actively determine such circumstances and to make them available to the defendant or his/hers defense attorney. In case he is not convinced of the defendants guilt, the state attorney is required to plead against or in favour of the defendant according to the prosecutor's own assessment (RiStBV, No. 138/139). Prosecution is compulsory if the prosecutor has sufficient evidence to convict.[6]
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cambsno said:
So there's a crowbar on board.
Would you know where to find it?
Is every mode of transport to be made psycho proof?
Utter rubbish.
You cannot legislate for every single possible outcome.
Everything in life carries risks.
Click to expand...

Trouble is these days we live in a world of blame, it has to be someone's fault and then action needs to be taken. This is forgetting that human nature is very complex. Some people are obviously dangerous but many are not so obvious. Yes, we could ban everyone with depression for being responsible for others but that's like using a hammer on a nut. What about joe public, do we ban everyone with depression from driving in case they mow down a bus stop tomorrow?

Aside from daily and complex texts this sort of thing cannot be prevented[/QUOTE]
I agree.
Depression is a (horrible) illness that varies dramatically in the effect that it has on individuals and in its severity, it is something that should always be taken into account but it doesn't necessarily make someone dangerous (either to themselves or to others) and there is simply no way of of keeping bang up to date with an individual's state of mind.

Here, in this country, someone who is suffering from depression won't be granted a shotgun or firearms certificate. Different police forces have different ways of dealing with this, but typically someone has to be clear of depression for 10 years before they are likely to get a certificate. Once a certificate has been granted, the GP gets a letter from the police telling him/her that the certificate has been granted and is then required to tell the police about any known conditions that might call the grant of that certificate into question, e.g. mental health issues, excessive use of alcohol.

Does it work? Maybe, up to a point, but but the greatest safeguard has always been other shooters, who have a quiet word with the police if they have concerns about other shooters - something that perhaps could have prevented this tragedy (assuming that the co pilot was indeed responsible). The official system is less than effective because a lot can happen between evaluations/certificate renewals etc - and people who are suffering from depression may not seek medical help because of the inevitable effect it will have on their jobs/certificates/self esteem.

I have a friend who has severe depression, he has had it for maybe 10 years but it took a very long time to persuade him to get help.
 
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